Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Summer Doldrums

[jd22]

Nothing you say is incorrect, but I would say most of my comments are a reaction to some moral high-horsing that Irish folks tend to take when colonialism is discussed on the internet. There's nothing wrong with Irish folks holding a more nuanced view of history - as a people's who were very much a victim of colonialism while gently reminding them that Irish people's were also perpetrators of it.

I don't think aboriginal folks who were displaced, exploited (and yes even genocided) by Irish colonists and Irish Catholic missionaries give much a shit of the distinction from them and their French and British counterparts.

And certainly I don't need to remind folks of the Catholic Church's own hellish role in our country's history, nor that Catholic Ireland's role in it as the Church's english speaking arm (in English speaking colonies).

I could go on and discuss how European countries in general are very bad about teaching their own country's legacy in colonialism and prefer to blame it on the colonial nations that they profited from and helped create, but that's getting even MORE off topic.

Anyways, that's the last I'll say on this. Really has nothing to do with the Canucks.

Let me bring a tangent to bring it back to the Canucks and also my local soapbox. The Dutch Gretzky played here, lest we forget the Weise-est amongst the Canucks of the last decade.

Anyway. More than half of the Netherlands are against the government issuing a formal apology for slavery. Not just colonialism, but straight up slavery. People still dress up in blackface here around Christmas for sinterklaas.

Hoorn says no to slavery apology, despite its slave trade past - DutchNews.nl

Councillors in Hoorn have decided not to make a formal apology for the town’s role in slavery or formally recognise its slave trade history, despite research showing it had a major stake. A majority of councillors refused to back a motion calling for an apology, and even more refused to back a...

www.dutchnews.nl

This deals with a particular town that was a large slave trading port. "No, it wasn't us, no need to apologize"

These f***ing people.

 

[Vector]

What if they have four centers McDavid, Drai, Nuge, and Henrique (who they just signed), and they need cap space, which you mentioned? It must be part of the master pan to get under the cap. A trade chip, that seems weird. Having a good young player in any system is not.

I'm curious @Vector who else would have been the target for a Savoie trade? I think he's a good player but not sure what type of value he holds.

It’s a good question and one I’ve been thinking about. Haven’t had a chance to go through rosters and identify someone.

 

[ameselare]

In my opinion, Edmonton does end up trading Savoie, he would be a good get for a team that's a few years further along the path Edmonton's on right now. A team that peaked a couple seasons ago, is slowly starting to sell guys off, and has a shallow prospects/draft picks pool. Not an exact comparable by any means but the recent Sergachev/Moser + Geekie trade comes to mind.

It will be interesting to see Edmonton's plans for Savoie - do they think he can up his value in their system and wait to trade him, do they think he's going to trend downwards and trade him early into the season, or do they see him as a necessary short-term fit considering he's on his ELC? Their center depth is strong enough that if he shows up ready to take a spot out of camp, he'll be more than supported by the guys around him and the system they play in.

I'm also interested to see McLeod's fit in Buffalo. Emotions are always very high after a trade like this is made and people are unfairly slandering/praising the players involved. Would be ideal for Buffalo if Ryan's game develops the way Michael's did this year. I think the Devils might have made the playoffs, despite their horrid goaltending and long-term injuries to Hamilton and Hughes, if Michael McLeod had stayed in the lineup. He was massive for them and was one of their most important players in an injury-riddled season. I do think his hockey IQ is higher than Ryan's but we'll see. Ryan's general IQ is higher than his brother's, we know that for sure.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

logan stanley just re-signed with winnipeg for two years, $1.25m AAV

stanley was RFA but i feel like he’s the upside of a desharnais right? and he’s a good version of forbort. so it feels like we overpaid on our giant bottom pair D?

 

[GranvilleIsland]

logan stanley just re-signed with winnipeg for two years, $1.25m AAV

stanley was RFA but i feel like he’s the upside of a desharnais right? and he’s a good version of forbort. so it feels like we overpaid on our giant bottom pair D?

I think he's half the player Vinny and Forbot are on the PK. Also RFA vs. UFA. Pretty sure he's not as physical compared to the other two as well.

 

[credulous]

logan stanley isn't very good. he's just big and is a package that could be good if he puts it all together. forbort and desharnais are both probably better

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think he's half the player Vinny and Forbot are on the PK. Also RFA vs. UFA. Pretty sure he's not as physical compared to the other two as well.

i don’t watch a lot of jets but i think stanley is supposed to be quite physical. the thing i didn’t realize is he’s played less than 1/3 of the season the last two years. maybe injury concerns, plus RFA status, is why he was so cheap?

 

[GranvilleIsland]

i don’t watch a lot of jets but i think stanley is supposed to be quite physical. the thing i didn’t realize is he’s played less than 1/3 of the season the last two years. maybe injury concerns, plus RFA status, is why he was so cheap?

He's not good defensively either looking at advance stats. Poor 5v5 and mid on the pk. Versus Forbot and Vinny who are mid to good at 5v5 and elite on the pk.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

actually i just looked at the thread on the jets board and they are not happy with the deal

he might have actually been a regular healthy scratch the last two years?

i remember games against us where he looked like he was really developing into something. but maybe he’s stagnated or regressed majorly since then.

 

[Vector]

actually i just looked at the thread on the jets board and they are not happy with the deal

he might have actually been a regular healthy scratch the last two years?

i remember games against us where he looked like he was really developing into something. but maybe he’s stagnated or regressed majorly since then.

I was surprised he even got qualified.

 

[MS]

The thing with Savoie is that he probably should have been taken 20th-25th (somewhere near Brad Lambert who is a nearly identical player) and it’s the ‘9th overall’ thing that’s really swaying viewpoints.

If Winnipeg traded Lambert for McLeod people would find that totally reasonable.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

The thing with Savoie is that he probably should have been taken 20th-25th (somewhere near Brad Lambert who is a nearly identical player) and it’s the ‘9th overall’ thing that’s really swaying viewpoints.

If Winnipeg traded Lambert for McLeod people would find that totally reasonable.

Really flat draft that year as well. I don't think there was much difference between 10ish-30ish. Which is why San Jose traded down from 11 to 28.

Kind of necessary for Buffalo to add a player like this like we did with Blueger, Soucy types last year. Buffalo won't attract shutdown centres through free agency without handing out a Benning-like contract. But they get a prime aged player with elite speed instead of overpaying an older UFA. Maybe overpaid and got killed on the NHL 24 trade meter. But, this trade makes them a more rounded team at the cost of a prospect in an area they our deep in.

 

[kanucks25]

actually i just looked at the thread on the jets board and they are not happy with the deal

he might have actually been a regular healthy scratch the last two years?

i remember games against us where he looked like he was really developing into something. but maybe he’s stagnated or regressed majorly since then.

Stanley has not been able to cement himself as a good regular so far in his career. At this point he's a #7 and don't see much upside there. Like a lot of large 1st round D-men, the only thing he has going for him really is name value.

Forbort is very limited but has a track record of being a #6 that is good on the PK. 1.5M for a 6/7 is fine.

Desharnais hasn't proven much more than Stanley but likely has more upside, or at least Canucks management thinks so. He will need to show that he is at least a good #6 for the contract we gave him to make sense.

 

[Wisp]

The Oilers making themselves older and slower in the short term is great. They're going to miss McLeod. And they have less trade assets at the deadline because they flipped their 2025 first for this year's draft.

It's not lost on me that they're trying to acquire ELCs to try and extend their window when IMO they should be maximizing this year and next.

 

[BimJenning]

It's a peculiar trade for EDM. You don't usually see a team that is (or should be) in all-in contention mode (especially during the last years of Bouch/Drai's contracts) trade for a prospect. Honestly, the best argument for this deal from an EDM POV is that they've found themselves an upgraded trade chip for this year's trade deadline. Savoie is not going to help the team this season, or even appreciably help them in the last year of McD's contract, so turning Savoie into another piece to help them in the post-season makes the most sense.

I think it really is this. A cheap "asset" to hold through the season (and maybe pump up in soft minutes with scoring) to trade for value later, given the lack of cap space there. If that's the gamble, I think I take it in their shoes (not high on Savoie either)

 

[JT Milker]

The Oilers dumping high motor guys and replacing them with small scoring wingers feels like a misevaluation of what made them successful after the Knoblauch hiring, but I guess we’ll see.

 

[Diablo2020]

Tldr;

In two years on paper its;

Kuzmenko -> Kuzmenko -> Debrusk
Horvat -> Blueger -> Blueger
Hoglander -> Beauvillier -> Hoglander
Pearson -> Suter -> Heinen
Lazar -> Studnicka -> Sherwood
Schenn -> Hronek -> Hronek
OEL -> Soucy -> Soucy
Stillman -> Cole -> Forbort
Burroughs -> Juulsen -> Desharnais
Martin -> Desmith -> Silovs

--

I was looking back today to see what has been reshaped roster wise since the new regime started.

Ive been a firm believer in the healing by 1000 bandaids approach because it has "felt" like every move has actually been, brick by brick.

But when you compare starting depth charts from two years ago it doesnt actually feel like we've done anything at all.

-- Patrick Allvin first year 2022\23 --

Hoglander - Pettersson - Kuzmenko
Pearson - Miller - Boeser
Joshua - Horvat - Garland
Podkolzin - Aman - Lazar

Hughes - Schenn
EkmanLarsson - Myers
Stillman - Burroughs

x aman, mikhayev, dries, dermott, rathbone

G - Demko, Martin



-- Patrick Allvin second year 2023\24 --

Beauvillier - Pettersson - Kuzmenko
Suter - Miller - Boeser
Joshua - Blueger - Garland
Di Guiseppe - Aman - Studnicka

Hughes - Hronek
Soucy - Myers
Cole - Juulsen

x mikhayev, hoglander, podkolzin, wolanin, friedman

G - Demko, Desmith



I understand there are other variables that go beyond a simple look back at depth charts.

The Kuzy, Bear, Kravstov and Dermott experiments..

Being cap compliant for the last two years..

The rental of Zadorov and Lindholm that helped us..

Adding Raty and Bloom to the prospect mix..

Signing Sasson McWard Johansson types..

And the need to change the culture in the room that came with this "overhaul"..

But in two years on paper its;

Kuzmenko -> Kuzmenko -> Debrusk
Horvat -> Blueger -> Blueger
Hoglander -> Beauvillier -> Hoglander
Pearson -> Suter -> Heinen
Lazar -> Studnicka -> Sherwood
Schenn -> Hronek -> Hronek
OEL -> Soucy -> Soucy
Stillman -> Cole -> Forbort
Burroughs -> Juulsen -> Desharnais
Martin -> Desmith -> Silovs

We've spent two years to upgrade Lazar into Sherwood

We've spent two years to upgrade Pearson into Heinen

We've spent two years to upgrade Hogs back to Hogs with a Beau stop in between.

We've spent two years to upgrade Burroughs into Desharnais for double the salary.

We've spent two years to have Soucy as an OEL replacement while eating the biggest buyout ever.

Then Horvat\Schenn for Hronek\Blueger is a wash or maybe favors us due to salary demands, age, position, whatever but not by much.


The only positive moves that push the needle have been the progression of Silovs into a potential backup this year, The kuzy experience we all had along the way to getting an actual Tocchet player instead, having the depth where Suter should drop down the lineup "maybe" and Stillman turning into Forbort which is a easily available win for every team to make over two years.

I just feel like a Potato could have assembled the same roster after two years, yet Allvin has made the most trades by far of any GM so where did the improvements come from truly?

 

[Wisp]

I just feel like a Potato could have assembled the same roster after two years, yet Allvin has made the most trades by far of any GM so where did the improvements come from truly?

I'm sure it all looks very easy from your armchair, especially when you're doing mental gymnastics to minimize the roster changes and in a way that would make an anime power scaler blush.

 

[ziploc]

I just feel like a Potato could have assembled the same roster after two years, yet Allvin has made the most trades by far of any GM so where did the improvements come from truly?

Bruce < Tocchet

That and the development of an actual system of play, pk work, commitment, etc....plus hughes growing into himself and getting Hronek as a partner

 

[biturbo19]

Really flat draft that year as well. I don't think there was much difference between 10ish-30ish. Which is why San Jose traded down from 11 to 28.

Kind of necessary for Buffalo to add a player like this like we did with Blueger, Soucy types last year. Buffalo won't attract shutdown centres through free agency without handing out a Benning-like contract. But they get a prime aged player with elite speed instead of overpaying an older UFA. Maybe overpaid and got killed on the NHL 24 trade meter. But, this trade makes them a more rounded team at the cost of a prospect in an area they our deep in.

Yeah. It was a pretty weird draft year. Consensus was extra scrambled beyond the top half dozen or so guys. Huge swath of prospects that could've gone more or less anywhere from where Savoie did to the late 20s, without even raising any real eyebrows.


I think the biggest thing this trade illustrates is once again, these "small skilled wingers" with flashy points production in Jrs just are not valued the way that a lot of draft enthusiasts around here seem to believe they are.

I do think Buffalo "overpaid" in this instance. But the point is...they were pressed to "overpay" because they're not only having to pay the "currency exchange fee" of translating a "???" into a "known NHL entity"...but they're compounding that with the huge deficit in value between a "small skilled winger" that tends to be available all over the place, vs a "Speedy Center".



Every year at the draft, there's at least one or two Savoies. Small little skilled guys who "fall" or are "steals" in the post-draft "instant analysis". Buffalo's quandary that spurred this trade...is reflecting the peril of just collecting these types. They've "won" a lot of drafts over the years. But they haven't won many games, and certainly not many playoff ones. And they've coincidentally also "lost" an absolute metric ton of trades as a consequence as well.

It's not that players like this can't be really good, useful, and even important parts of a successful team. It's just that...it has to be done in moderation. You need balance and a diversity of skillsets. Small skilled winger and offensive-oriented skillsets just happens to be one of the "easiest" skillsets to acquire, relatively speaking. It's the "do everything" types that are the toughest. Followed by the "hard minutes" types who are actually capable of being successful in tough matchups...specifically at Center and Defence.



That said...i do still think what Buffalo paid may have been a bit above and beyond even that premium by a bit. But not nearly as much of a landslide as it's being portrayed. And Edmonton will probably miss McLeod more than they think. Though if they "hit" on Savoie...and get him potting 50-60pts on an ELC or early RFA alongside McDavid/Draisaitl...that'd be huge for them, and go a long ways toward offsetting that ghastly Nurse contract.

Bruce < Tocchet

That and the development of an actual system of play, pk work, commitment, etc....plus hughes growing into himself and getting Hronek as a partner

Also Demko.

 

[biturbo19]

Anyway...as for the Canucks...am i out to lunch, or are we still kinda missing at least one Top-4ish D? I get that cap is tight, but we seem to have stepped back from Cole/Zadorov to...guys like Forbort/Desharnais, who are clear #6/7D at best.

Like...Cole was playing as a de facto Top-4D for us and doing reasonably well until he started to really fade hard...at which point they brought in Zadorov to hold the fort and basically replace him. But there was always Hughes+Hronek...and then a sort of revolving door of Soucy/Myers/Cole and eventually Zadorov pretty much required to do the whole, "2nd pairing by committee" routine. And i don't see that with this group right now. I see Soucy/Myers...and a missing link. Doesn't even have to be a clear cut Top-4 Stud as we saw with Cole/Zaddy. A "4/5 Tweener" is probably enough. But still short one...


Also still plenty concerned that they're going to continue trying to make Hoglander+Pettersson stick, when time and again it's been a terrible fit that seems to hurt both of their effectiveness. DeBrusk is a huge add to that mix, but once again...still a piece short of where i'd want to be. Even accounting for the fact that there's always the deadline to add a guy. You still have to get there in good shape to start bolstering your lineup like that.

 

[Vector]

 

[Rowlet]

Anyway...as for the Canucks...am i out to lunch, or are we still kinda missing at least one Top-4ish D? I get that cap is tight, but we seem to have stepped back from Cole/Zadorov to...guys like Forbort/Desharnais, who are clear #6/7D at best.

Like...Cole was playing as a de facto Top-4D for us and doing reasonably well until he started to really fade hard...at which point they brought in Zadorov to hold the fort and basically replace him. But there was always Hughes+Hronek...and then a sort of revolving door of Soucy/Myers/Cole and eventually Zadorov pretty much required to do the whole, "2nd pairing by committee" routine. And i don't see that with this group right now. I see Soucy/Myers...and a missing link. Doesn't even have to be a clear cut Top-4 Stud as we saw with Cole/Zaddy. A "4/5 Tweener" is probably enough. But still short one...


Also still plenty concerned that they're going to continue trying to make Hoglander+Pettersson stick, when time and again it's been a terrible fit that seems to hurt both of their effectiveness. DeBrusk is a huge add to that mix, but once again...still a piece short of where i'd want to be. Even accounting for the fact that there's always the deadline to add a guy. You still have to get there in good shape to start bolstering your lineup like that.

The D is better than last season's opening night.

Someone will be a seller who wasn't expected, they're definitely looking to add with space

 

[biturbo19]

The D is better than last season's opening night.

Someone will be a seller who wasn't expected, they're definitely looking to add with space

Is it though?

Cole on opening night last season was far better than either of Forbort or Desharnais. He fell off hard, but he was playing Top-4 quality hockey at that point. The rest is basically exactly the same, with maybe a little more established chemistry...but basically the same core guys. Minus having to play Hirose for a while for cap purposes.

Actual opening night is obviously always subject to health, but i think it's more realistic and fair to evaluate across apples to apples...how it looked over the summer, heading into the season.


I do hope they've still got a move or two up their sleaves somewhere. They had a ton of things go exceedingly well for them right out of the gate last year. They can't count on that this year. Nor will they be taken for granted early as some teams may have done last year.

 

[Diablo2020]

We should hound Seattle all year and the minute they're out try for Adam Larsson.

Desharnais
Mynio
2026 1st

Give him the Tanev deal after