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bossram said:
Eichel wasn't playing as poorly as Petey at the time, yes. He was completely not playing, out with injury, and wanting a unique surgery that had never been done on a hockey player.

People are retconning the rhetoric there was around Eichel. People were calling him a disappointment, locker room cancer, entitled, and we can't forget the "GM Eichel" moniker. People thought he was a lazy, defensively irresponsible, one-way player. And then add in the risk from his injury and the rare surgery he wanted to undergo. There was a lot of perceived red flags on Eichel at the time of the trade. The consensus on the trade, at the time, was 50/50 that BUF actually won the trade. Of course, everyone retcons that too and pretends they always thought it was horrible for BUF.

You're trying to characterize the Eichel deal as BUF selling low on some, at the time, universally recognized elite player who was only being traded because of a rift with management. That is absolutely was not how people thought of it at the time.
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That's not really what I am trying to do. My point wasn't that Eichel was a perfect player before the trade, only that he never played anywhere close to as poorly as Pettersson had, and that fact is a big distinction between the two. And in terms of what the fans and media thought of Eichel at the time of the trade, as you have outlined above, is there any indication that Buffalo's management thought this? With Pettersson, you have Allvin being on the record calling out Pettersson's preparation, etc., whereas I seem to recall the Eichel and Buffalo management issue mostly revolving around his injury.

My point wasn't that there weren't risks with Eichel. And in that sense a comparison between Eichel and Pettersson has merits. Eichel had more injury related risk, but just didn't have the same performance related risk that Pettersson currently has. And so you can broadly say the lesson learned from Eichel is perhaps don't give up on elite centres because of general risks, but that's a bit different from saying don't give up on elite centres because they have played poorly for a calendar year.
 
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Hodgy said:
@bossram



I've said it before, but the Eichel / Pettersson comparison isn't great in the sense that Eichel was never playing as poorly as Pettersson is currently. Eichel was still essentially a point per game player in his last year. The big problem for him, with the Buffalo Sabres, is that the team and Eichel couldn't agree how to best move forward with his neck injury which led to the relationship between player and team to deteriorate leading to the trade. Obviously it was a bad trade for Buffalo, and they shouldn't have made the trade, and the lesson is probably that you need to shutup an keep your star player happy. Or perhaps Eichel was always going to want out of Buffalo? Wouldn't surprise me.

So, with Eichel, you don't have this situation where a player is playing poorly and you give up on them because he is playing poorly, and then the player turns it around. That's the potential Pettersson situation, but not the Eichel one. Eichel was always playing well, and strictly from an on ice perspective, should never have been traded.
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Also, would the Eichel trade actually be that bad for us as a franchise?

The 24/25 yr old centerpiece Alex Tuch would go on to put up 79 points in 76 games his second season in Buffalo after the trade.

In our case id hope we'd get a center version of Tuch but the actual stats not counting the other 3 assets in the deal are pretty close.

Tuch 253 gp - 89 g - 130 a - 219 p
vs
Eichel 219 gp - 91 g - 137 a - 228 p

Of course Eichel has a cup and put up 33 points in his 29 playoff games and if Petey did that for his new team id be happy for him.

But even after stripping down Miller for 4 assets we still have holes everywhere and a severe lack of draft and prospect capital going forward.

The other NHL asset recieved for Eichel is redundant for us in Peyton Krebs but the right 20 yr old former 1st rounder is out there.

We've turned Aatu Raty into a PPG player on our farm team and the dude still likely has low value as a trade chip. A 2025 Krebs type would go a long way to giving us ammo.

The 1st was middle of the pack, and I hear rumblings of 2025 being a weaker draft.. I personally like Noah Ostlund a little but in hindsight that pick could have been Bichsel, Snuggerud, Yurov, Lamereoux or Kulich.

Yes none of those are elite selke winning two way horse centerman but they're all very nice pieces of which we lack.

And then there was a swap of picks, albeit the difference wasnt much from #77 upto #64.

That higher pick was used for 25 yr old Jordan Greenway who is still with the team today and likely fetches a 2nd like #64 overall by himself this deadline, even after coming back from injury.


So..

25 yr old Tuch
25 yr old Greenway
20 yr old Krebs
And coulda drafted Bichsel

Plus 5,250,000 difference in cap from Tuch to Eichel.

Thats actually a haul and we will be lucky to come close to an offer like that. Think OEL deal instead.
 
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Hodgy said:
That's not really what I am trying to do. My point wasn't that Eichel was a perfect player before the trade, only that he never played anywhere close to as poorly as Pettersson had, and that fact is a big distinction between the two. And in terms of what the fans and media thought of Eichel at the time of the trade, as you have outlined above, is there any indication that Buffalo's management thought this? With Pettersson, you have Allvin being on the record calling out Pettersson's preparation, etc., whereas I seem to recall the Eichel and Buffalo management issue mostly revolving around his injury.

My point wasn't that there weren't risks with Eichel. And in that sense a comparison between Eichel and Pettersson has merits. Eichel had more injury related risk, but just didn't have the same performance related risk that Pettersson currently has. And so you can broadly say the lesson learned from Eichel is perhaps don't give up on elite centres because of general risks, but that's a bit different from saying don't give up on elite centres because they have played poorly for a calendar year.
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Yes, Kevyn Adams publicly criticized Eichel, questioned his commitment to the club and wanting to be part of the "solution". It wasn't very positive. Basically calling him a bad member of the organization.

Yes, my point is that there were many risks around the Eichel trade, like there are many risks around a Pettersson trade. If Petey's performance decline is injury + training related, then this is almost a perfectly analogous situation to Eichel.
 
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bossram said:
Yes, Kevyn Adams publicly criticized Eichel, questioned his commitment to the club and wanting to be part of the "solution". It wasn't very positive. Basically calling him a bad member of the organization.

Yes, my point is that there were many risks around the Eichel trade, like there are many risks around a Pettersson trade. If Petey's performance decline is injury + training related, then this is almost a perfectly analogous situation to Eichel.
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If anything, the Eichel trade should be a warning sign to anyone who wants to trade away a star player because of 1 bad season due to injury.
 
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DING.



But of course we all know the 2011 team was special *because* of the success of the LA Kings, right? If we'd have beat them in 2012, we would've gone all the f***ing way. But the Kings simply learnt from our shortcomings. The Bruins did NOT. We managed to be in every game playing some of the worst hockey I've ever seen in my life.
 
arttk said:
If anything, the Eichel trade should be a warning sign to anyone who wants to trade away a star player because of 1 bad season due to injury.
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How can everyone keep pointing to Jack Eichel when Oliver Ekman-Larsson is RIGHT THERE.

We were even on the bad side of it!

Dude used his NMC as a 2 team NTC for a calandar year while our owner help court him.

Dude became the highest buyout ever to count against a teams cap. Ever. In history.

Our swede GM realized this swede "star" would never live upto the contract he had, his knees were cooked, and had no qualms with ditching him.


Tuch, Greenway, Krebs and Bichsel today, nothing retained.

Or

2nd, Roussel, Beagle and Eriksson in 2 years with %12 retained for 6.

Elias Pettersson has OEL's Heart, Mentality and Injury history.. Not Jack Eichel's.
 
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I wonder if Allvin had nightmares after watching Sweden and Pettersson? Or did he just accept he watching his career run down with Pettersson ice itme?
 
Diablo2020 said:
How can everyone keep pointing to Jack Eichel when Oliver Ekman-Larsson is RIGHT THERE.

We were even on the bad side of it!

Dude used his NMC as a 2 team NTC for a calandar year while our owner help court him.

Dude became the highest buyout ever to count against a teams cap. Ever. In history.

Our swede GM realized this swede "star" would never live upto the contract he had, his knees were cooked, and had no qualms with ditching him.


Tuch, Greenway, Krebs and Bichsel today, nothing retained.

Or

2nd, Roussel, Beagle and Eriksson in 2 years with %12 retained for 6.

Elias Pettersson has OEL's Heart, Mentality and Injury history.. Not Jack Eichel's.
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always someone frantic to change reality to suit their narrative.
Eichel had been asking for a trade for more than a year.
Then came the excuse to go, the neck injury.
One side for surgery the other for a different kind, fusion.

Eichel had two or three interviews where he said he was "tired of losing", that is hockey for "Trade Me"

Pettersson's value just went down by a leap.
But Allvin will say he thinks he will rebound. Then Allvin will trade for two really good wingers for him to play with.
Allvin's focus will be finding player to play with Pettersson, not making the team better. His reputation in on the line as well as his job.
 
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theguardianII said:
always someone frantic to change reality to suit their narrative.
Eichel had been asking for a trade for more than a year.
Then came the excuse to go, the neck injury.
One side for surgery the other for a different kind, fusion.

Eichel had two or three interviews where he said he was "tired of losing", that is hockey for "Trade Me"

Pettersson's value just went down by a leap.
But Allvin will say he thinks he will rebound. Then Allvin will trade for two really good wingers for him to play with.
Allvin's focus will be finding player to play with Pettersson, not making the team better. His reputation in on the line as well as his job.
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What Eichel went on to is worst case scenario.

Canuck fans on here dont care that Tuch has only scored 9 points less than Eichel by himself, because Eichel went to a powerhouse and won a cup.

If Pettersson went to Carolina, and they fizzled in the East Final, and Necas had 9 less points than him 3 years later, we'd be singing songs of how we fleeced! The other 3 assets all turned into pure profit, essentially.

Instead Eichel won a cup so thats what everyone points to.

People are still comparing trading Petey to Cam Neely when really, Pettersson is 25 yr old Barry Pederson and just like with OEL, we were on the bad end of that one too!

Petey is Barry Pederson.

Petey is 2020 Ekman-Larsson.

Petey is not, and will never be, Jack Eichel or Cam Neely.
 
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arttk said:
seriously ...

Apparently knee tendonitis is as serious as the injuries OEL went through.
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Glad it was caught early. Gonna extend his playing career.



Iso Petterson on this play in your mind. Can you believe he pulled this off with knee tendonitis? I f***ing can't. It's a miraculously self-sacrificing play that only EP would make to enable Boeser to make a brilliant pass to the right guy in the right spot.

We were using all 5 of our guys in the playoffs. That's what hockey is about. Not one guy like Kesler f***ing off and doing whatever the f*** hoping others can keep up. And Kesler's my favourite player. Look who's one of the first with their arms up. It's Pettersson. He ran that f***ing play, knowing it would turn out like that. Maybe he's not a winner, but that's championship play right there.

Best second assist I've seen since the Sedins.
 
bossram said:
Saying BUF won the Eichel trade, and then saying OEL and Petey are basically the same.

Yeah, those are some takes. Lmao.
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Im not saying slugs won the trade.

Im saying that package isnt the sky is falling like fans seem to think.

In fact its a real decent value package at the time, a year later, even 3 years later.

Im also saying Petey doesnt have the drive or mentality to win like Eichel does so im not worried about him putting up 26 points in 23 games to win his new team a cup like everyone here is worried about.

And I am comparing Pettersson to Oliver Ekman-Larsson, yes.

Its an almost exact comparable right down to the temperment of the player, the contract given and the coach involved.

OEL was touted as a future norris winner by many after leading his team in scoring twice before age 25.

He was given the C and keys to the city and a 8 year deal for 66 million.

He was immedietly shopped as it kicked in.

His coach Rick Tocchet gave up on him, regardless of the players obvious talent.

He held Arizona hostage with a NMC because he "wanted to be there" like others keep saying for Petey and Vancouver. (Who cares! If its best for the franchise, like with OEL and Arizona, seeya)

And then the Injury comparables..

Maybe Petey has tendonitis. Maybe the picture I posted the other day of Jesperi Kotkaniemi folding his knee in half from 5 years ago is just tendonitis. Maybe the multiple times he's missed games since is about 5 more things affecting his knee. We dont know.

I do know OEL actually tore something and had a major surgery, then had ankle injuries his time in Vancouver.

So yeah OEL was likely "more" injured which contirubuted to his decline. Or maybe he just had surgery done while Petey has been playing on it for two years, remarkably not missing a single game last season.

Either way Petey is wayyyy closer to the OEL arc than any worry I have he pots 26 in 23 to win his new team a cup while (gasp) our centerpiece gets 9 fewer points than him over the nezt 3 years.
 
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