Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Chaos Lurks Beneath the Surface

[Bobby9]

 

[ManVanFan]

Except this a player who is playing over his salary expectations. These are players you retain. Move on from players who cant justify their CAP hits or demands.

EP, Boeser, HOG and Demko. Suter should be considered a player who is a winner on a losing team. EP, Boeser, HOG and Demko are losers playing on a losing team.

Brock wants 8 M? For what? We should pay you for the rare instance where you score 40 goals? No thanks.

So you think having a team of 30 point players is going to make the team better because they have value? Brock gets 8M a year because he can score 30. Something that Suter will NEVER get close too.

Yeah moving on from Suter makes no sense unless he wants stupid money which I don't think any team will give him.

First out on a good PK, can play anywhere in your bottom 6, can be a matchup center against maybe not opposing 1st lines ideally but 2nd for sure.

Add in the 15G/35P+ and you have a player worth 3M even if the cap wasn't going up.

Roster construction? Where does he fit? You are going to sacrifice Joshua or Hoglander then? Lose size on the walls. Losing the ability to score more than 15 a season for the same prize.

 

[Bobby9]

So you think having a team of 30 point players is going to make the team better because they have value? Brock gets 8M a year because he can score 30. Something that Suter will NEVER get close too.

Yes, I think having a team of players who play above what is expected of them is how you build a good. team.

Brock can vs Suter does.

Suter isn't expected to replace Brock.

 

[JT Milker]

Yeah moving on from Suter makes no sense unless he wants stupid money which I don't think any team will give him.

First out on a good PK, can play anywhere in your bottom 6, can be a matchup center against maybe not opposing 1st lines ideally but 2nd for sure.

Add in the 15G/35P+ and you have a player worth 3M even if the cap wasn't going up.

They need to save money somewhere to afford a big money contract for a top line player. They can do that by letting Suter walk and running at least one ELC on defence if not two.

Debrusk EP Ehlers ($9M)
Joshua Chytil Garland
O’Connor Blueger Hoglander
Aman/Sasson/Sherwood/Raty

Hughes Hronek
MP Myers
DP/Soucy/Willander/Mancini

Lankinen/Demko

That would leave you with ~$1M in cap space. You won’t be able to move Soucy or Demko without taking cap back or replacing them, but maybe you can squeeze another $2-3M savings there? You also probably want to bring back Forbort if you manage to move Soucy.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Yes, I think having a team of players who play above what is expected of them is how you build a good. team.

Brock can vs Suter does.

Suter isn't expected to replace Brock.

this is the other side of it that causes me consternation. This team has lots of potential, but will they realize it (here) and will they do it in time? I'm not sure, but we're closer than some posters on here think.

We really don't need one more scoring winger if EP was 100-point take-no-prisoners, burn-the-city-down version of himself. I've never really seen EP that way. I always figured he'd top out at 80-90 points and be a Selke finalist perennially, but he seems to have bought into his own hype from early on.

He's gotten noticeably bigger from his rookie season, but his lower body is still more or less slight. His ankles look like kid ankles, that's a lot more weight to distribute.

I do think his conditioning is catching up to him, but he's got two choices. Mail it in, collect a cheque, fart around in life and be forgotten shortly after he turns 40 or fit the workout to the worker and have a Hall of Fame career. It really is up to him. I believe both are very real possibilities. Given the way he's shown to us, could go either way.

But he needs to cut out the noise in the market around him too. That means not listening to has-beens and never-wases.

 

[ManVanFan]

Yes, I think having a team of players who play above what is expected of them is how you build a good. team.

Brock can vs Suter does.

Suter isn't expected to replace Brock.

You pay enough Suter's you can't afford Brock. Yes a team that plays above what is expected is good but going to get paid more and the value isn't worth it anymore. Like Suter. Van should have done what Minny did with Freddy Gaudreau. Long term but cheap, 2.1M for a while longer while Winnipeg just upped Vlad Namestikov for 3M a year.

 

[StickShift]

Suter is a player that strikes me as someone who we are exceptionally happy with at his discount cap-hit, but will be perpetually disappointed by for similar production once he is paid market rate.

I don't mind re-signing him—but I'd rather see them put the extra money towards a premium player higher up the line-up, than pay a 3rd-line rate for someone who can occasionally pass as a 2nd-line player.

 

[ManVanFan]

this is the other side of it that causes me consternation. This team has lots of potential, but will they realize it (here) and will they do it in time? I'm not sure, but we're closer than some posters on here think.

We really don't need one more scoring winger if EP was 100-point take-no-prisoners, burn-the-city-down version of himself. I've never really seen EP that way. I always figured he'd top out at 80-90 points and be a Selke finalist perennially, but he seems to have bought into his own hype from early on.

He's gotten noticeably bigger from his rookie season, but his lower body is still more or less slight. His ankles look like kid ankles, that's a lot more weight to distribute.

I do think his conditioning is catching up to him, but he's got two choices. Mail it in, collect a cheque, fart around in life and be forgotten shortly after he turns 40 or fit the workout to the worker and have a Hall of Fame career. It really is up to him. I believe both are very real possibilities. Given the way he's shown to us, could go either way.

But he needs to cut out the noise in the market around him too. That means not listening to has-beens and never-wases.

Every good team has a running mate for a center. Petey was his best when he had Miller and Kuzmenko. Other than that he has been stuck with Garland and Debrusk. Those are 45-55 point wingers. Petey and Boeser have very little chemistry. If Petey isn't scoring 100 and scores 80 and plays great defensively. You have the Boston model. You need an aggressive physical little rat and a 100 point goal scoring winger to move the needle.

 

[rypper]

Suter is great defensively and very versatile. Play him as 4th line center or play him as your 1st line winger, etc. As long as his contract is reasonable you keep guys like that around.

It's counter productive to dump him for a mid pick and then lament "i wish we had a guy like Suter" and start over looking for him.

Don't even get me started on the trade Sherwood takes either.

 

[kanucks25]

They need to save money somewhere to afford a big money contract for a top line player. They can do that by letting Suter walk and running at least one ELC on defence if not two.

Debrusk EP Ehlers ($9M)
Joshua Chytil Garland
O’Connor Blueger Hoglander
Aman/Sasson/Sherwood/Raty

Hughes Hronek
MP Myers
DP/Soucy/Willander/Mancini

Lankinen/Demko

That would leave you with ~$1M in cap pace. You won’t be able to move Soucy or Demko without taking cap back or replacing them, but maybe you can squeeze another $2-3M savings there? You also probably want to bring back Forbort if you manage to move Soucy.

Your post makes sense if we live in the fantasy land that one of those top free agents will actually sign here.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Every good team has a running mate for a center. Petey was his best when he had Miller and Kuzmenko. Other than that he has been stuck with Garland and Debrusk. Those are 45-55 point wingers. Petey and Boeser have very little chemistry. If Petey isn't scoring 100 and scores 80 and plays great defensively. You have the Boston model. You need an aggressive physical little rat and a 100 point goal scoring winger to move the needle.

I tell ya....I really want Marchand. It's the most Canuck thing left to do.

 

[ManVanFan]

Suter is a player that strikes me as someone who we are exceptionally happy with at his discount cap-hit, but will be perpetually disappointed by for similar production once he is paid market rate.

I don't mind re-signing him—but I'd rather see them put the extra money towards a premium player higher up the line-up, than pay a 3rd-line rate for someone who can occasionally pass as a 2nd-line player.

Looking at Winnipeg and Namestikov same sort of player as Suter. Plays 2lc 15 minutes a night. Jets are top team in the league but they are looking for a 2lc right now. Where does that move Vlad, down to the 4th line then. Lowry 3rd line match up center for them. Vlad is a place holder right now because they don't have anyone else. Jet's know you can't have him as the 2lc going into the playoffs.

Can cap strapped Van pay 4lc 3M a year and still have a strong enough team? Not the way the current team is performing.

Suter is great defensively and very versatile. Play him as 4th line center or play him as your 1st line winger, etc. As long as his contract is reasonable you keep guys like that around.

It's counter productive to dump him for a mid pick and then lament "i wish we had a guy like Suter" and start over looking for him.

Don't even get me started on the trade Sherwood takes either.

He was the 1st line winger remember and he was a place holder because there was no one else but he's wasn't good enough for that spot.

 

[rypper]

He was the 1st line winger remember and he was a place holder because there was no one else but he's wasn't good enough for that spot.

Sure, but there's going to be times (injuries etc) when you need someone to fill in and he's adequate in spurts. You can play him up and down the lineup. He had chemistry with brock and Miller for a stint. Better him then PDG or someone like Bains.

 

[DimitriL07]

Rather combine Boeser’s and Suter’s next cap hits and gun for a legit top line player and just fill the spot with Sasson or someone.

 

[ManVanFan]

Sure, but there's going to be times (injuries etc) when you need someone to fill in and he's adequate in spurts. You can play him up and down the lineup. He had chemistry with brock and Miller for a stint. Better him then PDG or someone like Bains.

I absolutely agree. He's a great player to have up and down the line up for a good price not a market price. This current Canucks teams has holes that he is not filling.

If they chose to extend him, someone else has to go then. Hoglander, O'Connor, Joshua, Sherwood.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Pettersson to Carolina for Rantanen. Revert Rantanen back to center (hes a natural center) and play him there temporarily until a better C option is available. If he doesnt sign whatever, at least we rid ourselves an 11.6M boat anchor.

We then go from having 2C to zero, with no assets to acquire any. An abundance of cap space is lovely and all, but we need actual good players to spend it on. There are precisely two in FA who might be available and your hypothesis says one walks away for nothing.

At this point, we pretty much have to gamble Pettersson can turn things around. Trading him for quite literally nothing means good bye Hughes.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Suter is great defensively and very versatile. Play him as 4th line center or play him as your 1st line winger, etc. As long as his contract is reasonable you keep guys like that around.

It's counter productive to dump him for a mid pick and then lament "i wish we had a guy like Suter" and start over looking for him.

Don't even get me started on the trade Sherwood takes either.

Exactly.

People are too hung up on "sellsellsell" and don't appreciate how much guys like Suter, Sherwood and Garland bring. The fact all three of them can move up into a top six role and not look completely out of place speaks to their versatility. There's no a single prospect in our system that plays remotely close to the role Suter does.

If we start moving out guys like them and filling the spots with rookie, you'll get complaints how the third and fourth line can't get anything done.

 

[I am toxic]

Suter is great defensively and very versatile. Play him as 4th line center or play him as your 1st line winger, etc. As long as his contract is reasonable you keep guys like that around.

It's counter productive to dump him for a mid pick and then lament "i wish we had a guy like Suter" and start over looking for him.

Don't even get me started on the trade Sherwood takes either.

Sometimes I think most HFCanucks posters are that dog on the bridge with the bone it it's mouth, staring longingly and getting ready to jump at the dog in the water with an even bigger bone in it's mouth

Spoiler alert: the dog ends up wet, with no bone

 

[Bobby9]

Rather combine Boeser’s and Suter’s next cap hits and gun for a legit top line player and just fill the spot with Sasson or someone.

Okay, who?

Suter shouldn't be the player you sacrifice. It should be HOG. Suter out scores, out plays and out shines him in every facet for 50% of the price.

 

[ManVanFan]

Exactly.

People are too hung up on "sellsellsell" and don't appreciate how much guys like Suter, Sherwood and Garland bring. The fact all three of them can move up into a top six role and not look completely out of place speaks to their versatility. There's no a single prospect in our system that plays remotely close to the role Suter does.

If we start moving out guys like them and filling the spots with rookie, you're get complaints how the third and fourth line can't get anything done.

Does value win hockey games or talent? There's no single prospect in our system because the Canucks are constantly paying for rentals that are better than Suter and not selling Suter to acquire tickets to find something better possibly. Why try when you can remain mediocre.

 

[Bobby9]

Does value win hockey games or talent? There's no single prospect in our system because the Canucks are constantly paying for rentals that are better than Suter and not selling Suter to acquire tickets to find something better possibly. Why try when you can remain mediocre.

Being consistent is also a talent.

Suter is consistent. HOG is not. He is the player you sacrifice.

 

[Vector]

I would like some trade action to distract me from *waves hands* all this.

 

[kanucks25]

If acquiring real talent was as easy as clearing the cap space for it, every team would have it.

Unfortunately there's only so much to go around and typically you need to have a desirable environment to entice said talent.

This isn't EA franchise mode where the free agents have no free will.

 

[ManVanFan]

Okay, who?

Suter shouldn't be the player you sacrifice. It should be HOG. Suter out scores, out plays and out shines him in every facet for 50% of the price.

Suter is about to be paid the same and the previous year did not out score or out play Hoglander. Losing all the value contracts by constantly paying market price is not going to help move the needle forwards.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Does value win hockey games or talent? There's no single prospect in our system because the Canucks are constantly paying for rentals that are better than Suter and not selling Suter to acquire tickets to find something better possibly. Why try when you can remain mediocre.

Like Bobby said, being consistent wins games.

Look at a team like Toronto. All the top end talent in the world. What's killed them isn't just their stars struggling in the playoffs, but a lack of consistent depth scoring. If Matthews, Marner and Nylander can't carry them, they're dead. Heck, we very narrowly beat Edmonton despite all our injuries because McDavid was struggling. And we did that with both our top scorers and depth contributing.

Guys like Suter don't have the sexy point totals, but the grind they play helps in a different way.

A 2nd round pick from a contending team is basically darts on a board. You're hoping that pick develops into Suter 3-4 years later.

Suter is about to be paid the same and the previous year did not out score or out play Hoglander. Losing all the value contracts by constantly paying market price is not going to help move the needle forwards.

And yet I doubt there's many here who would call Hoglander a better player. Scoring goals doesn't mean you're good. Hoglander is extremely one dimensional. Hence why he's practically invisible every night he isn't scoring. Which has been a lot this season. Meanwhlie, Suter can play along the walls, grind out puck battles or straight wear down even star players in corners. He kills penalties and consistent enough to move up as needed.

There's a reason Suter looked good next to Miller and Boeser last season, but they rarely tried Hoglander there.