Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | 4 Nations Break Edition

[Vector]

JR was asked why he extended both and basically said this. Because if you have two good players, his reasoning was it was better to extend both and trade one or both, verses getting less value for a rental or expiring contract, or whatever.

And with Miller specifically, they already knew his market. They had been engaged in trade talks around him since the moment they arrived. They probably looked at it as a situation with fairly limited downside from an asset management standpoint.

 

[bossram]

Did it, though? He outperformed his contract last year and then traded him this season for a positive return and avoid any of the albatross years. Obviously what happened wasn’t a good scenario but it may have worked out strangely well. The original proposal for Miller before he signed an extension wasn’t any better than what they got for him.

To me, it seems like the bet was they felt they could move off his contract for a positive return even if things go sideways. Almost immediately he was almost traded to the Penguins too.

The real bet being made was that Miller could be a high-end core player during a reasonably sustainable contention window.

What their investment netted them was one 2nd round appearance. And is now causing them to necessarily dismantle the core they thought could be in place during this contention window.

 

[Hodgy]

For me, it's not really about "believing" whether Petey will bounce back. The longer this level of play goes on, it becomes increasingly likely he won't ever bounce back. His injuries could be chronic, which would make a full recovery impossible. And you could probably place me in the most fervent "pro-Petey" camp.

It's about the probabilities of where this team is going to go. If you trade Petey, the return will not include any premium assets. It will be a platter of B-tier pieces like the BUF end of the Eichel trade. Going that route ensures the team will not even be a fringe contender in the medium-term. The likeliest outcome is just a gradual drift toward even more mediocre finishes, even if Quinn stays (I doubt he will). 0% chance of winning anything significant or going on a playoff run.

I don't know what the likelihood of Petey bouncing back to like a top ~15 center form is. Maybe it's 10% at this point. But that's the only semi-realistic route to any kind of contention. They need a top center to contend, and Petey's old form returning is pretty much the only way, as the organization is currently charted, (i.e. not tanking for McKenna), that they will be able to find one. 10%>0%.

I suspect this is how management will view it. And it’s largely in part because they are going to try to compete now at all costs. I’ve also heard the Acquillinis are looking to sell the team, so they are even less likely to OK a rebuild right now.

But from a 3-7 year timeframe, holding onto Pettersson could become a real poison pill for this organization.

Like I said before, this management team is in an incredibly tough situation.

 

[bossram]

When did Sweden say he isn’t injured?


He’s definitely a bozo, and they took some risk there. But what transpired was still pretty shocking and unpredictable. Like, we knew he was a bozo during the pandemic year, and we knew he didn’t get a long with Pettersson, but literally no one predicted what happened.

I think him getting into altercations with teammates and other team personnel was extremely predictable. Like, it would be sillier if you didn't think he would have any problems.

They obviously didn't think it would be bad enough that it would force them to have to blow up their handpicked core.

 

[Canucks LB]

When did Sweden say he isn’t injured?

The moment he made the team and he’s playing hockey games.

Do you think they would play him if they knew he was hurt?

 

[Hodgy]

The real bet being made was that Miller could be a high-end core player during a reasonably sustainable contention window.

What their investment netted them was one 2nd round appearance. And is now causing them to necessarily dismantle the core they thought could be in place during this contention window.

It to @Vector point, if they traded him two years ago it’s unlikely they were more successful to date, or even better positioned to be more successful in the future. So they haven’t really lost much.

I think him getting into altercations with teammates and other team personnel was extremely predictable. Like, it would be sillier if you didn't think he would have any problems.

They obviously didn't think it would be bad enough that it would force them to have to blow up their handpicked core.

For sure, but that doesn’t make what materialized as being anything but very unpredictable. And both Miller and Petey, despite him being a bozo, co-existed for a couple of years of good play.

 

[bossram]

I suspect this is how management will view it. And it’s largely in part because they are going to try to compete now at all costs. I’ve also heard the Acquillinis are looking to sell the team, so they are even less likely to OK a rebuild right now.

But from a 3-7 year timeframe, holding onto Pettersson could become a real poison pill for this organization.

Like I said before, this management team is in an incredibly tough situation.

The only other alternative to get this team to contender status is a long-term tank/rebuild. Aqua will not allow that, so betting on Petey is the only option they have left.

 

[bossram]

It to @Vector point, if they traded him two years ago it’s unlikely they were more successful to date, or even better positioned to be more successful in the future. So they haven’t really lost much.

For sure, but that doesn’t make what materialized as being anything but very unpredictable. And both Miller and Petey, despite him being a bozo, co-existed for a couple of years of good play.

I think that evaluation would reflect even more poorly on management if that were the case. Basically saying having Miller here or not wouldn't have ultimately affected the team's contention likelihood. His main impact on the club would then just be ruining the dressing room.

Again, I think management miscalculated the risk of a major blow up with JT. They had to have known he was a volatile asset from his previous stops, and they had to have known, prior to his extension, that he and Petey had an ongoing issue with each other. If they didn't...again, doesn't reflect well on brass.

 

[Diversification]

Skill and IQ are definitely not things you can just group together. Kevin Fiala, for example, is highly skilled. He’s also been aptly referred to as a Labrador.

 

[Hodgy]

The only other alternative to get this team to contender status is a long-term tank/rebuild. Aqua will not allow that, so betting on Petey is the only option they have left.

I agree. And I think he’s got a higher chance of turning it around than 10% (not saying you feel strongly about that). Maybe not hit 100 points again but hopefully can get to a Sebastien Aho type level.

 

[TruGr1t]

The only other alternative to get this team to contender status is a long-term tank/rebuild. Aqua will not allow that, so betting on Petey is the only option they have left.

I dunno if I agree with that. There’s a number of possibilities. What if D-Petey and Willander both pop and you have a top three blue line in the NHL?

What if you hit a few home runs in FA and win a trade or two? A lot can happen in the summer.

There’s no actual way to know the probabilities or who will become available, or how you use cap space.

A lot of us were saying the name thing about this team when Miller and Pettersson were actually good (ie. rebuild) prior to the last 1.5 seasons. Then Miller switched to C and broke out, and Hughes arrived quickly. It’s hard to say.

 

[andora]

I dunno if I agree with that. There’s a number of possibilities. What if D-Petey and Willander both pop and you have a top three blue line in the NHL?

What if you hit a few home runs in FA and win a trade or two? A lot can happen in the summer.

There’s no actual way to know the probabilities or who will become available, or how you use cap space.

A lot of us were saying the name thing about this team when Miller and Pettersson were actually good (ie. rebuild) prior to the last 1.5 seasons. Then Miller switched to C and broke out, and Hughes arrived quickly. It’s hard to say.

I am praying for one of each really

1. young player to pop (dpetey looking good)
2. one additional trade that really snaps when the new player gets here
3. one solid UFA signing with ingredients that gel

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

It’s been poor post all star break last season and all of this season. Not sure where you’re drawing the line but his play has been poor for going on two seasons now with little indication that it’s improving.

Nah. It’s only really been a full year almost. He was playing just fine up until last February when it was unseasonably dry and cold. The body does different things to accommodate its environment.

You want to talk about conditioning and preparedness? I’m game, but based on what we know I think EP knows all that already - or he should by now. Some people you just can’t learn until they do it themselves.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Is it tricky, because with every game it becomes more obvious what we have to do.

Really? I feel like every game the more I want to keep him. He plays defense effectively at least, which is more than I can say for any of the Leafs losers who play scared when it matters.

 

[Jerry the great]

Hopefully he's sufficiently humiliated by his play over the last 12 months to put the work in this offseason, because the ship to trade him for anything remotely close to FMV sailed months ago.

 

[arttk]

It’s been poor post all star break last season and all of this season. Not sure where you’re drawing the line but his play has been poor for going on two seasons now with little indication that it’s improving.

Math is not your thing eh

 

[TruGr1t]

Hopefully he's sufficiently humiliated by his play over the last 12 months to put the work in this offseason, because the ship to trade him for anything remotely close to FMV sailed months ago.

Four Nations may have been worse than anything else because everyone watched it, and he barely managed fourth-line minutes.

 

[Hodgy]

I think that evaluation would reflect even more poorly on management if that were the case. Basically saying having Miller here or not wouldn't have ultimately affected the team's contention likelihood. His main impact on the club would then just be ruining the dressing room.

No, that’s not true or what I’m saying. They had a shot last year, and if things didn’t explode this year (which they didnt necessarily have to), then they may have had 1-3 extra shots.

Again, I think management miscalculated the risk of a major blow up with JT. They had to have known he was a volatile asset from his previous stops, and they had to have known, prior to his extension, that he and Petey had an ongoing issue with each other. If they didn't...again, doesn't reflect well on brass.

I agree that they took a risk on Miller’s personality and got burned. I don’t think the way in which things transpired, or indeed the severity of it, was very predictable though.

JR confirmed, more or less, that they knew of the issue but nonetheless extended both because they’d rather have good hockey players locked up and have to trade them, opposed to selling players for pennies on the dollar because the asset has no term. And again, it ultimately didn’t burn the Canucks. I don’t really see how trading Miller two years ago would have helped them on their compete now plan.

 

[Jerry the great]

Four Nations may have been worse than anything else because everyone watched it, and he barely managed fourth-line minutes.

yup, had to be embarrassing. hopefully it fuels him in the offseason. unless he just doesn't GAF.

 

[Rick Rocket]

Give him the off-season to work out. I'm sure he will bounce back and will be alright. 85+ point player with great defensive skills

 

[sting101]

On the plus side we just gave up a 1st for a win now piece when our top2 Cs are either cooked or traded.

1st 1st 2nd Miller Zadorov Brustewicz Fernstrom for M.Pettersson Chytil DOC (UFA) and Mancini

What a mess

 

[Vector]

On the plus side we just gave up a 1st for a win now piece when our top2 Cs are either cooked or traded.

1st 1st 2nd Miller Zadorov Brustewicz Fernstrom for M.Pettersson Chytil DOC (UFA) and Mancini

What a mess

This…is not how transactions work nor how these worked out or were constructed.

 

[Bobby9]

I think the convo in management has to be ‘well what do we do with Hughes?’ Starting tmro.

The Vancouver Canucks just lost 2 x #1 C within a year. A franchise simply cannot recover from that.

So, what do we do with Hughes?

 

[Kryten]

I think the convo in management has to be ‘well what do we do with Hughes?’ Starting tmro.

The Vancouver Canucks just lost 2 x #1 C within a year. A franchise simply cannot recover from that.

So, what do we do with Hughes?

Make him our 1C.

 

[wetcoast]

I dunno if I agree with that. There’s a number of possibilities. What if D-Petey and Willander both pop and you have a top three blue line in the NHL?

I'm a mid 50s life long Canuck fan and I have seen the "what if" strategy more times than I can remember.

Even if both players "pop" where does that exactly lead us?

What if you hit a few home runs in FA and win a trade or two? A lot can happen in the summer.

We need help at Center, going from it being a strong point for us with Elias, JT and Bo we are now down to a shamble wreck of EP, injured, lost in confidence and a fanbase that is turning ugly fast.

There’s no actual way to know the probabilities or who will become available, or how you use cap space.

What if every team fullfills their "what if" potential?

A lot of us were saying the name thing about this team when Miller and Pettersson were actually good (ie. rebuild) prior to the last 1.5 seasons. Then Miller switched to C and broke out, and Hughes arrived quickly. It’s hard to say.

It is hard to say but people are dreaming thinking we are close as our pipeline doesn't have any viable NHL impact or top 9 centers andwe are as likely to resign Boser then have another not so great contract on our hands and maybe Hughes starts having NJ dreams?