Canucks News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Will they stay or will they go, now?
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Baby Pettersson
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I really hate how accurate and true that first paragraph is. Just completely embarrassed to have an off season as bad as that was. Unacceptable.
And that the results made them panic and overpay for OEL the next offseason make it even worse…
At least the OEL move is leading to a Stanley Cup...
TruGr1t
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I don’t think I’d even qualify it as panic. That OEL/Garland move was about as strategic as Benning/Weisbrod got. They wanted those players.
wonder if brandon saad is a fit for vancouver.
www.nhltraderumors.me
Blues Rumors: Brandon Saad Available for Trade
The St. Louis Blues are in the middle of a retooling period and could see some notable changes to their roster this offseason. It is clear t...
Bourne Endeavor
Registered User
wonder if brandon saad is a fit for vancouver.
Blues Rumors: Brandon Saad Available for Trade
The St. Louis Blues are in the middle of a retooling period and could see some notable changes to their roster this offseason. It is clear t...
Would rather just sign Toffoli. That way we wouldn't be giving up assets. It's worth looking into for sure but I doubt St. Louis is giving him away. We really can't afford to make a big push. At least not for Saad.
wonder if brandon saad is a fit for vancouver.
Blues Rumors: Brandon Saad Available for Trade
The St. Louis Blues are in the middle of a retooling period and could see some notable changes to their roster this offseason. It is clear t...
He works as a part of a Mikheyev deal. Similar to how LA offloaded Petersen and Walker for far less than it should have cost. We’ll trade you Mikheyev, 1st, and 3rd for Saad and a 4th or something.
Bourne Endeavor
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The fact Benning went on to make his ever infamous "we ran out of time" statement made it all the more infuriating. Both Tanev and Toffoli have openly said they were content waiting but just wanted some form of acknowledgement the Canucks were interested.
Had Benning not been an idiot and actually did proper due diligence, I don't doubt for a second both Tanev and Toffoli would have taken the respective offers they got from Calgary and Montreal and asked Vancouver to match. They wanted to stay.
That off season alone was when I refused to even look at the Canucks until Benning was fired. It was an embarrassing show of complete incompetence that should never have been allowed to continue.
Soups On
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I wonder if Pittsburgh would be open to Mikheyev + something for Reilly Smith. Improve their defense/speed and look to free agency for players that can improve their PP which should not have been as awful as it was. Smith only has a year on his contract but definitely more of an offensive touch to his game.
On the other hand, trading a pick with Mikheyev to free up cap for buy low or under the radar players might be the play. I don't know where Vrana is at with his substance abuse rehab but if he's in a better space, a 1 year $1.5 million show me contract might end up being a steal. It would be nice to get Guentzel or Debrusk and a buy low top 6 guy like Vrana, Duclair, or Sprong - the cap management needs to be top tier to make it happen though.
Played with this on cap friendly and there's about $2.5 million left on the cap if the team needs to pay Zad or Joshua more or sign a guy like Duhaime
On the other hand, trading a pick with Mikheyev to free up cap for buy low or under the radar players might be the play. I don't know where Vrana is at with his substance abuse rehab but if he's in a better space, a 1 year $1.5 million show me contract might end up being a steal. It would be nice to get Guentzel or Debrusk and a buy low top 6 guy like Vrana, Duclair, or Sprong - the cap management needs to be top tier to make it happen though.
Played with this on cap friendly and there's about $2.5 million left on the cap if the team needs to pay Zad or Joshua more or sign a guy like Duhaime
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I think I'd rather re-sign Blueger than Vrana.
DeBrusk is an interesting option if Guentzel doesn't pan out. Still more of a middle winger kind of guy though and could be costly. He'd really need to produce in the top 6, especially as there could be a bidding war for him between the likes of Toronto, Edmonton and Seattle.
Soups On
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With that roster the team could afford Bleuger at $2.5 as well. There needs some offensive spark and though Bleuger offers a lot, it's not that. Vrana is an interesting one because of he hits, you're getting 50+ points for pennies on the dollar
I don't mind Vrana for those reasons, but only if we hit on another top 6 winger as well. I don't think he's the guy you can bank on, but he'd be a nice cheap reclamation project.
One concern I have is losing a lot of PK guys. Lindholm, Mikheyev, Joshua, Blueger all could go, and the likes of Vrana and Guentzel are not PK players.
Soups On
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Yep - in the screenshot I had, trading Mikheyev for Smith assures one top 6 forward and Joshua re-signed at $3.5 million still gives the team PK utility. They absolutely cannot have Suter back in the top 6 and definitely need a sure fire top 6 forward - with a nice reclamation buy low player the team should be able to take the next step. Suter did well given his salary but we saw in the playoffs how many golden chances he flubbed - a little more finish and it's the Canucks vs Stars.
It's a creative approach you've taken, and one in which our defence is preserved and actually improved.
It's not as much of a home run offensively as a Guentzel might be, and I am still worried about that EP line. Smith HAS put up over 25 goals in a season recently, and would be an improvement over Mikheyev certainly. Not sure if it's enough of one, but it may be the kind of road we need to go down with our cap restraints. There would be a lot of pressure on Vrana and Rielly to produce.
I also would want to try to keep Blueger if possible, to keep our bottom six a threat. I'd keep that third line together and probably run with Podz, Suter, PDG/Aman on the 4th.
Bourne Endeavor
Registered User
Agreed. Suter is perfect in a bottom six role. He's the type of player who surprises you with occasional offensive flourishes but should never be relied upon for them. Which is fine because that isn't his strength.
Ideally we have a bottom six of Joshua, Garland, Blueger, Suter, Podz, PDG/Aman. There is some snarl, some very decent goalscoring, and good PK work there. Not sure if we can afford it though.
"I'll drive that 2nd to the airport" - Brian Burke voice
A few thoughts have been hanging around the back of my mind lately
1. I'm wondering if the Canucks would be better off trying to trade Hronek for a cheap, young top 6 winger, and then signing one of the handful of top 4 RDs in free agency for cheaper than what Hronek would likely get.
That in turn gives them a bit more cap space to re-sign the UFAs and bring in another top 6 winger hopefully.
I know there were talks about Hronek being injured, but even with an injured Hronek the team's defense wasn't really an issue these playoffs. The main concern was goal scoring, so a potential small-ish downgrade on D for an upgrade at forward seems worth it.
Obviously it's risky because there's no guarantee they'll get one of the RDs, but they should have more than enough cap space to get it done.
2. This will contradict my first point...I can't help but feel like this free agency will have some of the worst contracts handed out in a while. And trying to sign some of the top 6 forwards/top 4 d-men will be very rough.
Not only is it the end of the flat cap era, but a handful of teams with tons of cap space are rumored to be looking to bring in some bigger pieces. Utah's GM told LeBrun that they're basically planning to overpay for shorter term contracts.
3. With point 2 in mind, it could be in the Canucks' best interest to acquire the UFA rights to a player or two they want to target in free agency (and try to get something for Lindholm's rights).
If they can lock someone up before dealing with some crazy offers outbidding them then great. If not, they can at least get a better feel for what their chances are on July 1st and if they need to focus on other guys. And there may even be the opportunity to flip those rights for another player's rights. Rinse and repeat.
They should probably be aggressive making moves with their window open right now. If it costs them a mid-late pick or two then so be it.
1. I'm wondering if the Canucks would be better off trying to trade Hronek for a cheap, young top 6 winger, and then signing one of the handful of top 4 RDs in free agency for cheaper than what Hronek would likely get.
That in turn gives them a bit more cap space to re-sign the UFAs and bring in another top 6 winger hopefully.
I know there were talks about Hronek being injured, but even with an injured Hronek the team's defense wasn't really an issue these playoffs. The main concern was goal scoring, so a potential small-ish downgrade on D for an upgrade at forward seems worth it.
Obviously it's risky because there's no guarantee they'll get one of the RDs, but they should have more than enough cap space to get it done.
2. This will contradict my first point...I can't help but feel like this free agency will have some of the worst contracts handed out in a while. And trying to sign some of the top 6 forwards/top 4 d-men will be very rough.
Not only is it the end of the flat cap era, but a handful of teams with tons of cap space are rumored to be looking to bring in some bigger pieces. Utah's GM told LeBrun that they're basically planning to overpay for shorter term contracts.
3. With point 2 in mind, it could be in the Canucks' best interest to acquire the UFA rights to a player or two they want to target in free agency (and try to get something for Lindholm's rights).
If they can lock someone up before dealing with some crazy offers outbidding them then great. If not, they can at least get a better feel for what their chances are on July 1st and if they need to focus on other guys. And there may even be the opportunity to flip those rights for another player's rights. Rinse and repeat.
They should probably be aggressive making moves with their window open right now. If it costs them a mid-late pick or two then so be it.
biturbo19
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Yeah. I think it's easy for a lot of people to fall into looking at "bulk rates" on production, over contextual production and even potential "fit".
Guentzel is like a weird elite complementary player...but at the pricetag he's looking for, i'm just not really into it. I'd rather spend maybe half that on a guy who doesn't have the entirety of that skillset, but is actually not that terribly far off in terms of even strength productivity. Which is where DeBrusk seems like a great fit if they can land him in that ~$5.5M +/- $500k sort of range. Proven complementary forechecker and finisher for top line/skill players too, which is really important in what we need out of a winger like that to play with Petey/JT+Boeser.
One other guy that really gets my attention with his name constantly seeming to pop up as potentially available is Joel Farabee in Philly. Not a UFA, so we'd be talking about a substantial trade to go get him...but he's a stupid effective Even Strength producer. Basically scored at a first line winger rate 5v5 without a lot of help playing with a revolving door of mostly scrubs in bottom-6 minutes. Basically a Garland-type...but with more reasonable size and better speed, and who also has a track record previously of being smart and skilled enough to play up and mesh better with more skilled players.
Doesn't seem like they'd be looking to just give him away...but he seems like the guy who has drawn the short end of the stick with Torts...getting bumped from the Top-6 in their logjam of wingers and the way his name always seems to float, probably the guy they'd be open to moving to make room. Maybe even in order to keep Konecny. Or just alleviate some of the roster crunch with all those other guys Torts likes better - especially with Michkov on his way immediately as well.
I really like the idea of a cost-stable $5M multi-year deal as well. I think playing with either Pettersson or JT+Boeser, plus just a dab of PP time, he's probably a solid 60-70pt winger, which would be huge surplus value, particularly where the cap is going now.
Probably takes our 2025 1st to get things moving. If there were some way to dump Mikheyev in the process, that'd be enormous, but maybe cost prohibitive.
I just really like him as a potentially available target who ends up undervalued because the bulk stats from PP Inflation aren't there.
We do still need one more piece for the Powerplay. JT, Petey, Hughes, Boeser is obviously going to be the core of the unit...but finding that 5th piece since they moved Horvat has been trickier. Probably just looking for a guy who is really clever and a decent finisher in that bumper spot like Bo was. But a revolving door in that 5th spot isn't necessarily a bad thing as it can potentially force creativity and reinvention and adopting different looks, just by what sort of player you plug in there.
He's a bit streaky, sure. But he's been a pretty consistently strong even strength producer, especially when given opportunities with Top-6 skill players. He's not just a "middle-6 grinder". He's a huge handful on the forecheck with his speed and tenacity, really good at digging up pucks and working them to more skilled linemates, and has great feel for timing and getting to the net at the right moments. He plays a heck of a lot like a modern day Burrows.
My only real reservation on him is...if he'll even hit that market. Or if the market gets too wild on him. If say...we're starting to talk about like $6M x 6 years...i'd be more inclined to look in on what the market for Chandler Stephenson is. Presumably it's going to be more than wherever DeBrusk falls, but if the whole market is jacked up like that...i'd rather spend the extra on the better, far more versatile player.
Stephenson doesn't have the RH shot and faceoff option like Lindholm, but his speed is more dynamic and he's also a great candidate to play with Pettersson swapping fluidly in/out on the Center/Wing roles. Or give us that "3 deep" down the middle look playing with Garland as well.
wonder if brandon saad is a fit for vancouver.
Blues Rumors: Brandon Saad Available for Trade
The St. Louis Blues are in the middle of a retooling period and could see some notable changes to their roster this offseason. It is clear t...
I could see Saad being a good fit in that sort of "better PDG" role beside Miller and Boeser. He'd be a solid upgrade over Suter there as well. Not sure how he'd work with Petey, it's hard to project. Same with Garland on a 3rd line if it comes to that. Some guys just work there, some don't.
But he definitely brings the sort of size that would be nice to add. Would have to be the right acquisition price though, as well as either incorporating Mikheyev's deal, or finding some other reasonable way to unload that.
Saad might actually be a decent option to try in that Powerplay Netfront/Bumper role even. So that'd be value added if it worked.
Toffoli kinda sucks. He scores his goals, but he brings absolutely nothing else to the table. He's an absolute slug. Totally undynamic ghost when he's not shooting the puck or collecting a few shrapnel secondary points in cushy offensive minutes or PP time. When he was here, it was evident how much his game stomps all over Boeser's niche - where Brock is the better, younger version by a wide margin.
I'd agree that we can't afford to get silly with a guy like Saad either. He's more of a "kick the tires and see if you can do it cheaply" trade target. But he'd be a much more useful player than Toffoli for what we need. Toffoli is in that extreme danger range for going full Loui Eriksson any day now.
I do think that given the cap realities and holes the team has to fill...they might well have to pull some "moneypuck" sort of deals out of a hat to make it all work. Hopefully some of the right gambles. Basically identifying the roles of the guys they do end up paying, and then figuring out what other roles and niche skillsets they need to bandaid certain elements of the roster in the meantime.
But Vrana is just a total no-go for me. This team is only one positive season removed from the locker room being an absolutely chaotic circus show. I really don't think we're in a stable enough place this year (especially if there's a lot of other roster turnover) to be gambling on a guy like Vrana who has been viewed as a wildly toxic, "get him out of here at all costs i don't care what it takes to bury him" sort of poison asset. That's a classic case of what some others have talked about...with valuing some stats sheet production over what that player means for the overall tone and positive atmosphere in the room. It's the sort of "desperation ploy" hail mary attempt at a bandaid that can completely sour the room and any positive momentum built up last year from having everyone on the same page and giving full buy-in to the system and playing the right way for winning hockey.
Duclair and Sprong as similar, though less extreme examples.
Reilly Smith might be a more reasonable option. But there's a lot of risk with that contract, and i'm not sure the Penguins would even have any interest in the sort of Mikheyev swap that it'd take to make that risk justifiable. Even though i really liked Smith as a player. He's at that age where his fall-off is...very concerning. Even if he's been a guy who can be pretty volatile from year to year throughout his career.
Peen
Rejoicing in a Benning-free world
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the 5v5 points and playdriving argument is a good one when you’re talking about the value of guys who won’t be on pp1
but this team needs another elite talent who can play at a high level and on pp1.
if guentzel comes, your four high salary fwds will be pp1 guys. and if that works for a few years, so be it.
also re the horvat v lindholm discourse. horvat’s the better player, lindholm was a better fit for maximizing this roster. but that is no longer the case given the salary he demands. horvat would have given you an elite pp and more offense but it’s just obvious that group of 3c had diminishing returns
but this team needs another elite talent who can play at a high level and on pp1.
if guentzel comes, your four high salary fwds will be pp1 guys. and if that works for a few years, so be it.
also re the horvat v lindholm discourse. horvat’s the better player, lindholm was a better fit for maximizing this roster. but that is no longer the case given the salary he demands. horvat would have given you an elite pp and more offense but it’s just obvious that group of 3c had diminishing returns
VanillaCoke
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biturbo19
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One of the biggest points of note to me down the stretch and into the playoffs wasn't just that goal-scoring became an issue. It was that the team started to look very "slow" as a whole component of that. Particularly up front.
What Nashville did to them, and what LA did every time we met, kind of highlighted that when teams would clog up the neutral zone and deny east-west puck movement and stretch plays...we really don't have any fast Top-6 players, and very few "fast" Forwards in general.
JT is pretty average though every now and then he really gets on his horse on the backcheck, but doesn't really break teams through the neutral zone the way a team like say, the Oilers are able to...with individual puck carriers and speed up front in general.
Outside of that...Pettersson is on the slower side and has to be very methodical picking his way through the neutral zone. Boeser is a slug who really struggles to carry the puck through the NZ.
Garland was one of our more effective neutral zone puck carriers, but he, like Hoglander, is really more "quick" than "fast".
Lindholm skates fine but he's not the most natural puck carrier. Joshua didn't generate a lot there. PDG, Podkolzin are more dump and chase guys at best. Bluegers another decent skater but bad puck carrier and terrible distributor.
Lafferty started the season as a real difference-making puck carrier and then just kind of tailed off for whatever reason. Part of the reason i'd somewhat prioritize him on a cheap deal, hoping it was more of a conditioning issue over the season.
Mikheyev used to be fast and good at this, but his wheels have never really been the same. Still sadly one of the better forwards on our team at it, even at 65% or whatever he was skating at.
Just a real dearth of fast neutral zone puck carriers, individual trap-breakers, zone-entry gainers, etc. Which is magnified by the fact we don't have a very aggressive puck-carrying or puck-moving back end (outside of Hughes).
So as much as i think people have identified "lack of size up front" as a problem area to address...i think the lack of that raw long-speed and puck carrying ability combination is a big deal to address this summer as well.
It's where i don't really love the player, but Martin Necas is basically the epitome of that skillset. So i can understand where there reported interest might be coming from. He's almost a niche player in doing precisely that. Taking the puck, winding up and rushing or moving it individually through the neutral zone. Also where a lot of his defensive ooopsie daisies tend to happen, with really poor puck management on high risk plays. But he's significantly better than any forward we have at individually moving the puck through the neutral zone.
I don't know about Point#3 so much here. But Point#2 is where, some of the rumors about UFA prices coming out...i'm starting to look more at other value that might be found on the trade market. It's never fun to give up assets...but if prices get as stupid as it sounds like they might, it might be better off in the short and long-term to try to seek out some more reasonable deals on the trade market instead.
We might be on the precipice of a weird situation where previous "bad UFA deals" from the last few years, might actually big a real "value deal" in comparison to some of the top UFA deals that are about to get signed.
It also feels like there are probably going to be some lesser UFAs who are going to "fall through the cracks" once everyone has blown their allowance on the top guys though. So there might be some value there as well.
StickShift
In a pickle 🥒
RE: “I’d rather just sign a Jake Debrusk-type for 60% the cost of Guentzel for 60% of the results”
You are not paying Guentzel for his regular season production. You are paying that premium for the production in the post-season. Few active players in the league have performed as consistently as Guentzel in the post-season. He is quite literally in a whole different echelon to any other free agent or top-six forward we’ve been linked to.
Think about how many times this playoffs we saw Mikheyev or Hoglander flub a high danger chance. That’s why you pay Guentzel.
That’s not to say that I don’t like Debrusk specifically as an addition. I just see such a stark difference in quality of player that he should only be considered a plan-B if Guentzel is not going to happen.
PS — Mikheyev
PPS — added Justin Williams for historical context.
You are not paying Guentzel for his regular season production. You are paying that premium for the production in the post-season. Few active players in the league have performed as consistently as Guentzel in the post-season. He is quite literally in a whole different echelon to any other free agent or top-six forward we’ve been linked to.
Think about how many times this playoffs we saw Mikheyev or Hoglander flub a high danger chance. That’s why you pay Guentzel.
| Player | Playoff Pts | Playoff GP | Pts/GP |
| Jake Guentzel | 67 | 69 | 0.97 |
| Jonathan Marchessault | 76 | 102 | 0.75 |
| Elias Lindholm | 27 | 40 | 0.68 |
| Patrik Laine | 16 | 24 | 0.67 |
| Justin Williams | 102 | 162 | 0.63 |
| Sam Reinhart | 32 | 51 | 0.63 |
| Teuvo Teravainen | 50 | 90 | 0.56 |
| Jake Debrusk | 47 | 86 | 0.55 |
| Viktor Arvidsson | 37 | 72 | 0.51 |
| Martin Necas | 30 | 59 | 0.51 |
| Tyler Toffoli | 46 | 93 | 0.49 |
| Anthony Duclair | 16 | 39 | 0.41 |
| Nikolaj Ehlers | 14 | 37 | 0.38 |
| Jason Zucker | 18 | 52 | 0.35 |
| Nils Hoglander | 2 | 11 | 0.18 |
| Ilya Mikheyev | 4 | 30 | 0.13 |
That’s not to say that I don’t like Debrusk specifically as an addition. I just see such a stark difference in quality of player that he should only be considered a plan-B if Guentzel is not going to happen.
PS — Mikheyev
PPS — added Justin Williams for historical context.
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biturbo19
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- Jul 13, 2010
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Yeah. I think that's fair. I just also worry about what happens if it doesn't "fit" on the PP. It's such a huge potential premium to pay for that extra value. And PP chemistry can be a fickle mistress.
The Penguins are a prime example of this...where they took a lot of PP Talent, added ostensibly another great PP talent in Karlsson...and created and abhorrently bad PP that they simply could not figure out how to operate effectively. Where Guentzel himself played a metric ton of PP minutes and contribute to...one of the absolute worst powerplays in the league.
It's also where...some of the best PPs often incorporate someone you wouldn't even expect to be there. Sometimes it just requires a niche skillset, or even sometimes just a meathead yeoman who is great at digging up pucks and getting in lanes to create problems, or a Casper player who just ghostly floats around and facilitates.
I'm just a subscriber to the idea that building a robust 5v5 team where you play most of the game, is the priority. And if you have to, supplementing that with niche skillsets as needed. Particularly when it comes to the Powerplay...where you can often find bargains who have more skill than other elements, if you don't end up with the right PP skillsets organically by building a strong even strength roster.
Ehhh...i really like DeBrusk and i think he'd be great here. But i don't think he's got that sort of potential upside. His lack of creativity and lackluster PP feel probably hold him back from that. You never know, as per above...sometimes a guy like that is exactly what a Powerplay needs to really "click". But we saw DeBrusk spend most of his 2022-23 season playing with Bergeron and Marchand. And he was still pretty limited to ~30G/55Pt sort of range. I think that might be more or less his ceiling. He's not a guy who is going to pick up tons of extra "shrapnel points" per se. Not the way someone like Boeser does.
But i don't really have a problem with that. If he's a guy who can score ~30G playing there and help his linemates be better with his speed, forechecking, puck retrieval, forcing turnovers, etc...that's money to me. Even if there's a lot of "phantom assists" where his forecheck generates a goal that he doesn't technically "touch the puck" for an assist on. Or cruising through the goalies vision even if he doesn't get a stick on it like Kreider the wizard. That's also value to me, beyond the scoresheet.
Does he though?
He's turning 28 in October, been in the league for 7 full seasons, and most of that time was with very good top 6 forwards on his line (Krejci, Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak, etc). It's not like he hasn't been given an opportunity to succeed or limited ice time.
From what I've heard from Bruins fans he's mostly a complimentary player, and very inconsistent.
Even though he does check a lot of boxes for the Canucks, I have a hard time committing ~6M/year for what he typically provides.
Edit: lmao biturbo beat me to it
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