Canucks News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Playoffs Approaching

[arttk]

So there are two issues at play.

1. You stated that “Getting him [Guentzel] would be a Mark Stone level event.”

2. I said Mark Stone was a way better player than Guentzel when acquired.

On the first issue, you should simply concede. There is no world where acquiring Guentzel, who would play his first game as a Canuck at 30, is on the same level of Vegas acquiring Stone, at the age of 26, even if one thought Stone and Guentzel were equal in terms of quality. And the two aren’t equal. Stone is very obviously the better player, and the debate is really by how much. But anyway, we don’t need to talk past each other on this. You just need to concede you are wrong and we can move on.

On the second issue, I agree there is ambiguity in what it means to be “way better”. In my mind, if one player is in a different tier than the other, than that player is “way better”. Stone is most certainly in a different tier, and none of what you have said has challenged this. You can’t claim, with any credibility, that one winger that scores as much as the other, but drives his own line and is a multiple Selke nominee winner, is in the same tier as the other winger. It’s ridiculous. And again, we are ignoring the relatively significant age difference.



Stone is 31. Why are you comparing this year? Are you really going to argue Guentzel is in the same tier defensively? Or that he is a primary play driver on his line while usually playing with Crosby?


They basically score at the same rate, and the ppg difference is negligible. Guentzel definitely has the edge in goal scoring, but that’s more than likely explained by the fact that he’s played with a generational talent and a player that will go down in nhl history as one of the all time greats.

Mark Stone would score more with Crosby and would probably score a similar number of goals and a much higher ppg. Sure, it’s speculation, but it’s grounded in reason.



I don’t know why it’s moot. It’s anything but moot and a huge part of this argument.

if you can pay a first and a good prospect for a Stone like player, at age 26, with a contract in place that is very reasonable, that is way better than signing an inferior and much older player to a higher cap hit contract. It’s not even close.

I know you will continue to try to “win” this debate, but I really do think you should concede, because Guentzel just isn’t a comparable player to Stone, and their acquisitions wouldn’t be comparable level events.

Is Mark stone really a way better player than Guentzel? I mean yeah he is probably the most complete 2 way player but Guentzel is also a PPG pure offense winger.
60pt shutdown winger vs 30-40 goal scorer that has a history of scoring above PPG in the playoffs. Impact wise it’s pretty comparable.

 

[sting101]

Is Mark stone really a way better player than Guentzel? I mean yeah he is probably the most complete 2 way player but Guentzel is also a PPG pure offense winger.
60pt shutdown winger vs 30-40 goal scorer that has a history of scoring above PPG in the playoffs. Impact wise it’s pretty comparable.

He's worth 9million in LTIR at the deadline so it's possible he's next to getting McDavid or MacKinnon as big a impact player there is

 

[Hodgy]

Is Mark stone really a way better player than Guentzel? I mean yeah he is probably the most complete 2 way player but Guentzel is also a PPG pure offense winger.
60pt shutdown winger vs 30-40 goal scorer that has a history of scoring above PPG in the playoffs. Impact wise it’s pretty comparable.

Stone isn’t a 60 point winger. He’s like a .95ppg selke calibre winger.

 

[arttk]

He's worth 9million in LTIR at the deadline so it's possible he's next to getting McDavid or MacKinnon as big a impact player there is

Not sure about measuring impact by money earned…. There are like only 30ish PPG player in the league. I would say adding one in Guentzel would be very impactful.

Stone isn’t a 60 point winger. He’s like a .95ppg selke calibre winger.

Ah you are right, he’s just incredibly injury prone that he has never played enough games to get more than 64 points.

 

[arttk]

Also there are a lot of paths to move forward. We can try to move off of Mik and Garland. Then we can keep Boeser if he is willing to extend with a reasonable discount. We can also extend Lindholm so we have Petey, Miller and Lindholm as center depth and the top6 having 2 scoring paring in Guentzel + Petey and Miller + Boeser. Then you run a 3rd line of Joshua, Lindholm and Pod.

 

[Canucks LB]

The kuzmenko dump is bigger than we give a credit for I think, getting rid of 5 million next season is the equivalent of a first round draft pick

 

[Jerry the great]

The kuzmenko dump is bigger than we give a credit for I think, getting rid of 5 million next season is the equivalent of a first round draft pick

it was a major component of the deal for sure. And unlike with Mikheyev, who i think could bounce back next year when his knee is closer to 100%, Kuzmenko just isn't a player that can be relied upon defensively....especially on a contending team.

 

[Diversification]

it was a major component of the deal for sure. And unlike with Mikheyev, who i think could bounce back next year when his knee is closer to 100%, Kuzmenko just isn't a player that can be relied upon defensively....especially on a contending team.

My guess is that he ends up in CHI or SJS before the start of next season.

 

[TruGr1t]

The kuzmenko dump is bigger than we give a credit for I think, getting rid of 5 million next season is the equivalent of a first round draft pick

It was part of the deal for sure, but I dunno if I'd say "major" or equate it to a 1st rounder, he is on a short-term deal and does not have a ton of contract liability. I'd say his value has further declined since the trade because now there is no enticement in terms of him "bouncing back" to rookie form ... he looks like he is what he is at this point.

I do not think moving him in another deal at the time would have been horribly cumbersome. In fact, given winger movement at the deadline they may have been able to move him for a paltry return, possibly with marginal retention. Now that he's away from Tocchet and has done it with two separate teams, though, his value is a lot worse since the idea of a bounce back is pretty much toast.

 

[Jerry the great]

It was part of the deal for sure, but I dunno if I'd say "major" or equate it to a 1st rounder, he is on a short-term deal and does not have a ton of contract liability. I'd say his value has further declined since the trade because now there is no enticement in terms of him "bouncing back" to rookie form ... he looks like he is what he is at this point.

I do not think moving him in another deal at the time would have been horribly cumbersome. In fact, given winger movement at the deadline they may have been able to move him for a paltry return, possibly with marginal retention. Now that he's away from Tocchet and has done it with two separate teams, though, his value is a lot worse since the idea of a bounce back is pretty much toast.

moving Kuzmenko when we did required a GM that needed to "compete now". It was basically Calgary, Pittsburgh and maybe Washington.

 

[David71]

would you go after JG in the offseason? given that hes 30.? could be perfect partner for petterson.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Odd as f*** to compare Guentzel and Stone

 

[sting101]

i'm not a fan of starting a long term commitment to someone starting at 30

4-5 yrs sure but 35 and beyond can be absolutely devastating to the culture of a team

 

[arttk]

i'm not a fan of starting a long term commitment to someone starting at 30

4-5 yrs sure but 35 and beyond can be absolutely devastating to the culture of a team

See that’s why I got married at 29

 

[Wisp]

have a good

 

[ChilliBilly]

On planet Ork maybe. Where players are immortal and never age.

What year did they draft these non players, Lettermaki, Willander, Podkolzin, Pettersson? Any of them helping now? Which are so good they can displace Soucy, Miller or Demko?

Here are other odd questions. What will YOU be doing in 5 to 7 years? How many funerals? Visits to hospitals? New jobs? Mates?
A lot of variables.

But in hockey there can be a plan to take into account variables.

You're right they will need youth but they won't have time to replace ALL the needs that way.

Pettersson is 26 yrs old, Miller 31 yrs old, Demko 28 yrs old, Boeser 29 yrs old, the majority of the team will be over 26 yr old next year. Seven years from now that makes them 33+ yrs old.

And then there is the matching contracts with teams that have more cap space especially over the next 4 years.

This IS a win now team. Age dictates that. They can't wait for 5 or 6 players to develop into stars or even NHL players as is happening now. Just who would Bains replace? Woo, Hirose or McWard? These players already have a few years of development going on. Which replaces Soucy, Cole or even Juulsen?

Sorry but you are seriously wrong. We are going into a window of 4 - 6 years with a great core. Having some of our top 5 prospects step in will be major in terms of the cap. On top of that, EP signing a friendly contract is so important in terms of signing players to decent contracts. we have a ton of UFA and RFA to deal with. All of a sudden we are a preferred place to sign. (both our NHL chance of a cup, and the fact that Vancouver is an incredible city, the only down side being the Canadian tax structure)

Win now? We want to win now, but it looks like we are going to be a serious contender for at least 3 years, and if Hughes re-signs with us, maybe the foreseeable future. We have no idea what this team will look like in 4 - 5 years, but this is probably the best the Canucks have looked in their entire history.

 

[rea]

Signing DeBrusk to a 6 million dollar contract will cost the Canucks WHO? Off the Roster right now? They don't have enough cap space to keep the players on the team now for next year.

Can Vancouver out bid Calgary? They aren't done yet either but will have loads of cap space and now, draft assets to improve.

Crouse for Willander?. The team would still have a full roster of defencemen for the next 4 years to find another to fill in.

Crouse for a #20 to #28 pick in the draft, bring it on!!!! Crouse could be around for an other 5 years helping the team NOW.

One other aspect often over looked is the player's environment.
DeBrusk could be the result of playing with the best team in the league for most of his career whereas Crouse has had to carry more of the load an a really bad set of circumstances and team.

IMO way more upside for Crouse than Debrusk just in that he has had to play with less skilled players forcing him to become better.

I get your arguments, but in what world is debrusk getting 6m a yr? And the debate they don't have capspace, u are right. But its the same as crouse. U are trading a prospect that has no value against cap and taking in cap without relieving said spot, so the choice of using the debate that adding one is diff than adding the other based on your thoughts is moot. They both are coming in on your logic with nothing outgoing in terms of dollars so regardless, someone off roster has to move to accommodate.

Also saying debrusks play and stats could be seen as the result of playing for a top team, you gotta also look at crouse being on a shit team and being given all the opportunity in the world to shine. It can be a 2 way street. Debrusk doesn't get all the playtime or advantage to mess up without consequences, crouse on other hand due to such a shallow depth team, would have every opportunity given to him in all scenarios with no worries about him f***ing up as they aren't a team that was every battling competitively.

Beyond that I agree there is a window of opportunity for this team to challenge, but Imo a prospective top dman given this teams depth isn't something I'd trade away for a crouse. You've seen how hard it is to find good dmen, let alone affordable ones. Getting one in on an Elc that would do the same job as a vet top 4 dman costing the team say 4m+ multi year is huge. Wingers are much more plug n play imo, but the backend u got 6 spots and the top 4 u want to eat 2/3ds of the game.

 

[F A N]

So there are two issues at play.

1. You stated that “Getting him [Guentzel] would be a Mark Stone level event.”

2. I said Mark Stone was a way better player than Guentzel when acquired.

On the first issue, you should simply concede. There is no world where acquiring Guentzel, who would play his first game as a Canuck at 30, is on the same level of Vegas acquiring Stone, at the age of 26, even if one thought Stone and Guentzel were equal in terms of quality. And the two aren’t equal. Stone is very obviously the better player, and the debate is really by how much. But anyway, we don’t need to talk past each other on this. You just need to concede you are wrong and we can move on.

On the second issue, I agree there is ambiguity in what it means to be “way better”. In my mind, if one player is in a different tier than the other, than that player is “way better”. Stone is most certainly in a different tier, and none of what you have said has challenged this. You can’t claim, with any credibility, that one winger that scores as much as the other, but drives his own line and is a multiple Selke nominee winner, is in the same tier as the other winger. It’s ridiculous. And again, we are ignoring the relatively significant age difference.

I agree. I underestimated Stone at the time he was traded to Vegas given his contract demands and durability issues. He's the best two-way winger of his generation. He's kind of like Marian Hossa before him (how Ottawa loses players like Hossa, Stone, Chara without winning a Cup is sad).

With that said, I think Guentzel is underrated by some because he's been playing with Crosby. He may very well remain an elite goal scorer for another 5-6 years.

 

[VanJack]

That's the thing you admire about Allvin and Rutherford......when they make a mistake on a player, they don't let it fester.

Clearly they probably had 'buyer's remorse' early in the season after signing Kuzmenko to a two-year extension. But they didn't let it linger--trading him to Calgary as part of the Lindholm deal. And more miraculously with no salary retention.

They moved out Jason Dickinson at the cost of a second rounder.....and traded Beauvillier to the Hawks with no salary retention either. And used the cap space to acquire Zadorov.

And after trading for Jack Studnicka from Boston, they ran up the white flag and eventually traded him to the Sharks for Nick Cicek and a seventh round draft pick. A nice return for a guy they determined was never going to help them.

Every GM in the league makes mistakes. It comes with the territory. But it's what you do about it separates the good GM's from the mediocre ones.

 

[Ernie]

Hopefully it's just a few games. On the plus side this forces the team to get him some rest as well.

 

[Baby Pettersson]

Hopefully it's just a few games. On the plus side this forces the team to get him some rest as well.

Honestly if he was going to get injured now is the best time with the relaxed schedule coming up.

 

[Bobby9]

Avs = Tough
Caps = Should win
Sabres = Should win
Habs = Should win

If we can go 3-1 without Demo we are chilling

 

[Quinning]

This is why we traded for DeSmith.

Can give Silovs a game to see what we have.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Also there are a lot of paths to move forward. We can try to move off of Mik and Garland. Then we can keep Boeser if he is willing to extend with a reasonable discount. We can also extend Lindholm so we have Petey, Miller and Lindholm as center depth and the top6 having 2 scoring paring in Guentzel + Petey and Miller + Boeser. Then you run a 3rd line of Joshua, Lindholm and Pod.

Yea good thing is we have options now. A season ago we have to pay to get rid of Boeser and/or Garland, but now I think we can probably trade them for positive returns (in Garland's case probably very minimal return). Mik will probably requires a sweetener to dump though.

Unless Lindholm is willing to take a $5m x 1 or $5.5m x 2 type of prove-it deal, I let him walk too. I think we are seeing a sharp decline in this player that is going to get worse as he gets older. He is still a RHC that is awesome on the faceoff, good defensively and can kill penalties, that is the only reason to bring him back at all, but I really think he will go where he is offered a long term contract, this is his last chance to score a big payday.

Personally, I am also open to moving off from Boeser this summer IF we are able to utilize his cap space better. I am still not a fan of his speed and backchecking, but he is on pace for 40G this season, so he should have some value. If we can get a 1st round pick + a B level prospect for him, that would be something I would consider IF we can then move that package (+ a little bit more) for Buchnevich. Both are pending UFAs after next season and if I have to commit a significant amount of cap space (both are probably looking for $7m-$8m range) I prefer Buch.

However, I am perfectly fine with keeping Boeser for next season and using him as our "own rental". I can see BB6 scoring at a very good clip next season going into free agency. I wouldn't want to sign him to a long term (4 years or more) big cap hit ($7m or more) deal though, as I really feel his speed and conditioning will be a concern going forward.

 

[Bobby9]

TBH, Id rather throw 5x5 at Chandler Stephenson than Lindolm and use his him as our 3C.
Dudes a monster.

Miller 1C
EP40 2C
CS 3C

Insane talent and depth. Chandler adds a bit more grit and weight/seize too which I like