Canucks News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Off-Season Edition | Not satisfied, so now what?

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Last one was over 1,000. Continue here.

Vector, here, I've taken over this original post. Here's the link to my spreadsheet. Contains regularly updated capspace totals, projected rosters, and UFA & RFA lists with AFP's contract projections.

Click to read more...

 

[Hodgy]

I don't really know what you're trying to say in response to a banal post about Petey not playing with Kuzmenko a ton last season.


They need to add a top-six forward in addition to the likes of Garland/Joshua.

I am not sure if we will be able to afford to have the blueline we want to have, add a top line winger for Pettersson and bring back Joshua. We may be able to do that but only have a "top six winger" to play with Pettersson, like an Arvidsson or something, but if think its a bigger risk running with a mediocreish top six winger with Pettersson and Joshua on the third line, then a top line guy like Guentzel or Reinhart with Pettersson and no Joshua. If you prefer Joshua then that's fine.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Garland played top-six minutes at ES all season and in the playoffs. Again, there is this mass confusion that Garland was a "3rd liner" or "depth" because his nominal line was third on the line chart. He performed like a 1st calibre player at ES and Tocc deployed him like a top-six player. In terms of competition, pretty much Miller/Boeser got the toughs and everyone else had a roughly equal distribution of "elite", "middle", and "gritensity" levels of comp (besides Aman who was heavily sheltered).

And then Joshua's usage also went up in the playoffs, to top-six ice-time. In addition to his already-stated top-six production. These were top-six players for the club. This is indisputable at this point.

Like I said before, Guentzel-in and Garland/Joshua-out is a defensible argument. I don't exactly subscribe to it, but it's reasonable. What is unreasonable to is to say jetissoning a guy like Garland means they're not losing a top-six calibre player. That's simply false.

And if you lose both of Joshua/Garland and add a Guentzel, you still can't "bump down" one of Hoglander or Suter. You still need them in the top-six because there's no one else to play there:

Suter - Miller - Boeser
Guentzel - Petey - Hoglander

And then there's basically no third line at all.

I think you are wrong.

For the regular season, NHL.com has him as 7th in ice time amongst forwards when you include Lindholm. And he’s just a few seconds above Joshua and Mikheyev for average ice time per game. Seems like 3rd line ice time to me. I wasn’t able to find even strength ice time, but I don’t think that distinction really negates my point.

 

[VanJack]

Canucks have nine impending UFA's, who if they aren't signed by July 1st, are free to sell their services around the league.

Frankly, as good as some of these guys have been for the Canucks, they're mostly bottom-of-the roster forwards or depth d-men.

The only three guys who'd leave a hole behind would be Lindholm, Joshua and Zadorov. The others are 'replaceable pieces'.

So it's inevitable that there's going to be a pretty big roster makeover this off-season for the Canucks. I suspect the hockey ops department is crossing their fingers hoping that a few guys who toiled in Abbotsford last season, can step up and fill these depth roles. That would be the most ideal solution.

 

[pitseleh]

And then Joshua's usage also went up in the playoffs, to top-six ice-time. In addition to his already-stated top-six production. These were top-six players for the club. This is indisputable at this point.

Worth noting his most common on ice opponents at 5v5 were Josi, Mcdonagh, Forsberg and O’Reilly in the Nashville series and Kane/Draisaitl, with Nurse/Ceci/Bouchard about equal, in the Edmonton series. So it wasn’t just a matter of soft minutes.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Sure, but the solution from you and others is to gut the depth.

I said I was agnostic lol, come on man. And that’s not even an accurate characterization of what is being said. Drastically improving the top 6 at the expense of the bottom 6 is not necessarily “gutting the depth.” We currently have bottom 6 forwards playing in the top 6 (Suter, Hoglander, Mikheyev). They would be shifted down as a result.

 

[pitseleh]

I think you are wrong.

For the regular season, NHL.com has him as 7th in ice time amongst forwards when you include Lindholm. And he’s just a few seconds above Joshua and Mikheyev for average ice time per game. Seems like 3rd line ice time to me. I wasn’t able to find even strength ice time, but I don’t think that distinction really negates my point.

Garland was fourth at even strength, fifth if you include Lindholm.

 

[bossram]

I think you are wrong.

For the regular season, NHL.com has him as 7th in ice time amongst forwards when you include Lindholm. And he’s just a few seconds above Joshua and Mikheyev for average ice time per game. Seems like 3rd line ice time to me. I wasn’t able to find even strength ice time, but I don’t think that distinction really negates my point.

If you're going to say I'm wrong, you might actually want to check the thing I actually mentioned, and not some other thing.

In the regular season and playoffs, he was 5th in ES TOI/game, behind just the big four you'd expect. My argument this whole time is that Garland provides 1st line impact at ES, and that he's being deployed essentially as a top-six player. These are all true things. Now you're trying to say I'm wrong when you can't even provide the right facts. Garland's overall TOI/game isn't as high because of special teams.

I said I was agnostic lol, come on man. And that’s not even an accurate characterization of what is being said. Drastically improving the top 6 at the expense of the bottom 6 is not necessarily “gutting the depth.” We currently have bottom 6 forwards playing in the top 6 (Suter, Hoglander, Mikheyev). They would be shifted down as a result.

Like I demonstrated before, in your "get a high-end top-six winger" scenario, you still can't shift down Suter/Hoglander because there are no other qualified forwards to play in the top-six.

Worth noting his most common on ice opponents at 5v5 were Josi, Mcdonagh, Forsberg and O’Reilly in the Nashville series and Kane/Draisaitl, with Nurse/Ceci/Bouchard about equal, in the Edmonton series. So it wasn’t just a matter of soft minutes.

Very interesting as well.

 

[Vector]

I think you are wrong.

For the regular season, NHL.com has him as 7th in ice time amongst forwards when you include Lindholm. And he’s just a few seconds above Joshua and Mikheyev for average ice time per game. Seems like 3rd line ice time to me.

5v5 forward ice time in the regular season:

1) Boeser - 1123:01
2) Pettersson - 1089:54
3) Miller - 1085:13
4) Garland - 1003:40
5) Mikheyev - 946:10
6) Hoglander - 910:48

However, Joshua, Suter, and Lindholm all missed a lot of time.

Here's how much 5v5 they averaged per game:

1) Boeser - 13.9 min.
2) Miller - 13.4 min.
3) Pettersson - 13.3m
4) Lindholm - 12.5 min.
5) Garland - 12.2 min.
6) Blueger - 12.2 min.
7) Mikheyev - 12.1m
8) Suter - 12.0 min.
9) Joshua - 11.8 min.
10) Hoglander - 11.4 min.
11) Lafferty - 10.9 min.


5v5 forward ice time in the playoffs:

1) Miller - 199:01
2) Boeser - 183:04
3) Pettersson - 172:28
4) Suter - 169:01
5) Garland - 166:30
6) Lindholm - 165:00
7) Joshua - 164:57
8) Blueger - 137:39

There's a substantial cap between Joshua and Blueger but not so much between Suter and Joshua.

 

[theguardianII]

I honestly can't understand what you're saying. In the same post, you're saying there is no need to rebuild the defence again, but then say Hronek won't be back. Very contradictory (and that's ignoring you saying they go the arbitration route, which is the worst possible option).

And then you say 6 forwards will be moving, but no one dismantles a 105 point team. So uh...which is it? Are they bringing back the same team or not?


Sure, but the solution from you and others is to gut the depth.

I acknowledge the team needs an upgrade at forward above EP returning to normal.
Hronek will price himself out of the market. He already is. All year long the talk has been 8 million a year. if he goes to arbitration he gets well over 6.5 mil and a one year deal so gone the next year.
The team still has Willander as a prospect.
Hughes didn't exactly win games in the playoffs with scoring 5 on 5.
Lafferty, Suter, Bluerger, Mikheyev maybe, all have plateaued. Joshua hasn't signed yet so shopping himself around but he is only had 32 points, one good year.

They bring back the same team but change 2 defencemen. IMO Dillion for Cole and maybe what can be a return for Hronek.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

If you're going to say I'm wrong, you might actually want to check the thing I actually mentioned, and not some other thing.

In the regular season and playoffs, he was 5th in ES TOI/game, behind just the big four you'd expect. My argument this whole time is that Garland provides 1st line impact at ES, and that he's being deployed essentially as a top-six player. These are all true things. Now you're trying to say I'm wrong when you can't even provide the right facts. Garland's overall TOI/game isn't as high because of special teams.

View attachment 877166


Like I demonstrated before, in your "get a high-end top-six winger" scenario, you still can't shift down Suter/Hoglander because there are no other qualified forwards to play in the top-six.

I mean, according to your logic here, Teddy Blueger is a top 6 forward too. I disagree.

As for the second part, that really depends on how they decide to construct the rest of the roster including the defence. Trading Garland could allow them to sign two quality top 6 forwards (like Lindholm/Guentzel/Reinhart/etc.) which could help shift Suter/Hoglander down. There are many balls still up in the air so it's hard to say, but I would not conclude that trading Garland and opening up $5 million in cap space would only mean 1 top 6 forward could be signed.

 

[JAK]

It is fascinating how two Benning signings both ended up basically being LTIR signings in Ferland and Poolman.

Fans that bought their jerseys because they were big fans of the players must feel really bad.

But the players probably feel the worst.

 

[Peen]

Man, I get why people want Joshua and Myers back at "discounted" 3MM AAVs, but once you start putting those contracts in the lineup with Blueger at 2.1 and Hronek at 7, you are done. You have no flexibility to make meaningful additions that improve the team to being top five in the league, which is what they need to be trying to do.

10.3MM in cap for three spots. If you find a Mikheyev taker, it pushes you up to 15MM. But it's not as if they have extra trade assets at all. Genuinely very against trading top prospects during the summer given the need for value ELCs in the lineup in the following two years. Obviously not talking in absolutes.

 

[DFAC]

Man, I get why people want Joshua and Myers back at "discounted" 3MM AAVs, but once you start putting those contracts in the lineup with Blueger at 2.1 and Hronek at 7, you are done. You have no flexibility to make additions.

View attachment 877172

10.3MM in cap for three spots. If you find a Mikheyev taker, it pushes you up to 15MM. But it's not as if they have extra trade assets at all. Genuinely very against trading top prospects during the summer given the need for value ELCs in the lineup in the following two years. Obviously not talking in absolutes.

I think Myers and Joshua are both going to get over 4m in free agency.

 

[MS]

Man, I get why people want Joshua and Myers back at "discounted" 3MM AAVs, but once you start putting those contracts in the lineup with Blueger at 2.1 and Hronek at 7, you are done. You have no flexibility to make additions.

View attachment 877172

10.3MM in cap for three spots. If you find a Mikheyev taker, it pushes you up to 15MM. But it's not as if they have extra trade assets at all. Genuinely very against trading top prospects during the summer given the need for value ELCs in the lineup in the following two years. Obviously not talking in absolutes.

I'm trading a 1st to get rid of Mikheyev if need be. Now is not the time for half-measures.

 

[arttk]

Man, I get why people want Joshua and Myers back at "discounted" 3MM AAVs, but once you start putting those contracts in the lineup with Blueger at 2.1 and Hronek at 7, you are done. You have no flexibility to make additions.

View attachment 877172

10.3MM in cap for three spots. If you find a Mikheyev taker, it pushes you up to 15MM. But it's not as if they have extra trade assets at all. Genuinely very against trading top prospects during the summer given the need for value ELCs in the lineup in the following two years. Obviously not talking in absolutes.

That's why we need to take a step back and think about what we need for the team vs who we can keep. Trading away Mik without retention is top priority and Garland should definitely be on the table as well.

 

[Peen]

I'm trading a 1st to get rid of Mikheyev if need be. Now is not the time for half-measures.

I don't think I'd do a pick but I wonder about attaching Hoglander. He's only one more year at that value ticket and if you don't think he's going to be trusted next playoffs, that will be an ugly situation next summer given he'll have a strong arb argument with the regular season production and be looking for term.

I don't think you can afford to trade more picks given that those are the baseline currency involved in every single trade for prominent assets in the summer or TDL.

 

[MS]

I don't think I'd do a pick but I wonder about attaching Hoglander. He's only one more year at that value ticket and if you don't think he's going to be trusted next playoffs, that will be an ugly situation next summer given he'll have a strong arb argument with the regular season production and be looking for term.

I don't think you can afford to trade more picks given that those are the baseline currency involved in every single trade for prominent assets in the summer or TDL.

The biggest thing we can do right now is get rid of Mikheyev to preserve Zadorov or Joshua who are exponentially more valuable players/assets. How they do that, I don't care. It's more important than theoretical TDL deals next year.

Hoglander is also an option.

 

[Peen]

I think Myers and Joshua are both going to get over 4m in free agency.

Dhaliwal poured a lot of cold water on Myers being enticed by free agency money. He really wants to be here and specifically cited a figure around 3MM at 2 years on the radio today.

If that's the starting point on the agent's side, I wonder if they can get him down to a lower figure or just one year.

 

[Peen]

The biggest thing we can do right now is get rid of Mikheyev to preserve Zadorov or Joshua who are exponentially more valuable players/assets. How they do that, I don't care. It's more important than theoretical TDL deals next year.

Hoglander is also an option.

I would not do that. That's a move that treads water in the big picture and they have to be careful.

Like you spend a 1st on that to retain Joshua and then you have zero assets to upgrade the team this upcoming season. Zero. And there aren't enough solutions in free agency. They need another elite player and that's only coming through trade.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

I'm trading a 1st to get rid of Mikheyev if need be. Now is not the time for half-measures.

This.

I would ideally like to balance the needs of the present and the future but the time to contend is now while other teams in the West continue to have their flaws. Our group isn't getting any younger... JT Miller will be 32 years by the 2025 playoffs and Demko's body may as well by 38 years old.

It's clear there isn't much help coming aside from Lekk or Willander who aren't guarantees. You are pretty much starring at a retool in 3-5 years anyways. Go all in...

 

[wonton15]

I don’t think Joshua at $3M is that bad at all, but it means we have to buy Mikheyev out or trade him. Non-negotiable. Joshua does provide enough tangible and intangible value for that contract to not be a net negative.

I’d run Suter at 3C and leave Blueger off the team. Use a cheap 4C.

 

[God]

I would not move Hoglander just to get rid of Mikheyev. It was his first playoff experience. Everything is a learning curve with him, but he has Garland's motor and that usually pans out.

Plus he's so cheap that we're not going to be able to replace that. Podz has the best chance but I don't think he processes the game as well as Hoglander... which actually says a lot.

 

[Peen]

This.

I would ideally like to balance the needs of the present and the future but the time to contend is now while other teams in the West continue to have their flaws. Our group isn't getting any younger... JT Miller will be 32 years by the 2025 playoffs and Demko's body may as well by 38 years old.

It's clear there isn't much help coming aside from Lekk or Willander who aren't guarantees. This team should be going for it now.

I don't disagree but they don't have the assets to go all in for this upcoming season. I also don't think it's a good move. I think there are avenues to significantly improving this team this summer but they need to save that 1st to grabbing an elite player and to hit in free agency.

I'm not saying don't move Mikheyev if the price is reasonable.

I just think it's a very questionable way to spend an asset. To the point where I wonder about just bringing him back and trying to tread water with him on a 3rd line until the deadline. There's no way it can get worse and if they can address adding an elite forward and another top four D, maybe just tread water for now.

I would not move Hoglander just to get rid of Mikheyev. It was his first playoff experience. Everything is a learning curve with him, but he has Garland's motor and that usually pans out.

Plus he's so cheap that we're not going to be able to replace that. Podz has the best chance but I don't think he processes the game as well as Hoglander... which actually says a lot.

He's only cheap for this upcoming year.

They kind of have to make a call on what they think he is now because if you aren't confident, he's got real value as a chip this summer & you risk another playoffs where Tocchet doesn't trust him, or even regular season, and his production flat lines/decreases. And then that's an ugly contract situation and an asset with no trade value.

But if they think he can figure it out, they should just go long now at a lower value ticket. Hoglander & Boeser need raises in a year and that's going to be at the same time that the OEL buyout penalties skyrockets

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Any interest in Gage Goncalves?

Just turned 23. RFA with Tampa who has put up good numbers in the AHL.

Could be a bottom 6 option.

Mission, BC kid as well.

 

[Vector]

Any interest in Gage Goncalves?

Just turned 23. RFA with Tampa who has put up good number in the AHL.

Could be a bottom 6 option.

Mission, BC kid as well.

Yes. Lots. He’s no longer waiver exempt so maybe there’s something there.