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[MS]

Stanley Cup calibre teams have to be able to find cap efficiencies to win. Carson Soucy playing 17 minutes a night as a 3 LD making 3M is not a cap efficiency to say.

If you look at some of the top teams, they have cheap bottom pairing guys that were very effective for them this year (Hakanpaa, Gustafson, Mike Reilly, Shattenkirk, OEL)


You're not trading Soucy to dumpster dive.

You're trading Soucy to keep someone like Zadorov or Joshua who are more high-impact players.

You're losing the plot here.

By the time you replace Soucy you save $1 million, and probably take a huge downgrade.

Mikheyev is the guy who goes to free up money. Silovs in for DeSmith as the backup. Aman replaces Blueger. Podkolzin in for Lafferty. That sort of stuff.

Soucy is going nowhere.

 

[WTG]

Hakanpaa signed 3 years ago under the flat cap for $1.5. His 2021 self would be getting well over $2 million now and he’ll probably be getting paid as much or more than Soucy this summer.

There are 32 teams looking for quality cheap D on July 1. Crossing your fingers and hoping you’ll get one of the 1 or 2 guys who proves to be a cheap bargain is a fool’s errand.

This is just textbook EA Sports management. Actual NHL GMs on contending teams don’t trade away quality 6’5 defenders on good contracts so they can go dumpster diving. It isn’t how it works, and with good reason.

But you could also argue that teams don't let power forwards like Joshua walk, Selke finalists Lindholm walk, or 6'6" mean defensemen like Zadorov walk.

 

[JohnHodgson]

I get the logic. What I, and others, are saying is it's not nearly as simple finding a replacement for Soucy at half the cost as you're making it out to be. If it were, well, Toronto probably would have done it in the last decade. Even if by accident.

Stop throwing out nonsense like "Is he Carson McDavid??!?!" because people aren't agreeing with you.

It's funny you say this because Toronto literally did that this season with Sam Benoit.

They found an adequate third pairing defesenman for 775k and then extended him to a 3 year 1.35M AAV contract.

The best teams in the NHL often find cap efficiencies like this. See guys like Hakanpaa, Gustaffson, Rielly (mike), Chatfield etc

 

[MS]

But you could also argue that teams don't let power forwards like Joshua walk, Selke finalists Lindholm walk, or 6'6" mean defensemen like Zadorov walk.

They’ll be trying to keep Joshua and Zadorov. There isn’t much chance of Lindholm coming back.

And unsigned players are a different story. Teams don’t trade good-value contracts at key positions with plenty of term left a year after the contract was signed.

You can discuss it til you’re blue in the face, but Soucy is all but guaranteed to be here on October 1.

 

[JohnHodgson]

But you could also argue that teams don't let power forwards like Joshua walk, Selke finalists Lindholm walk, or 6'6" mean defensemen like Zadorov walk.

These guys are losing the plot over a bottom pairing depth defensemen that's injury prone.

Trading Soucy and keeping someone like Joshua or Zadorov, to me, it's a no brainer. You make that move 10/10 times and trust the scouting staff to bring someone that can bring 70-80% of what Soucy brings.

 

[Vector]

Also, Soucy has a full NTC.

 

[JohnHodgson]

They’ll be trying to keep Joshua and Zadorov. There isn’t much chance of Lindholm coming back.

And unsigned players are a different story. Teams don’t trade good-value contracts at key positions with plenty of term left a year after the contract was signed.

You can discuss it til you’re blue in the face, but Soucy is all but guaranteed to be here on October 1.

Stop gatekeeping conversations bud. It's unproductive and meaningless.

This is the same management group that almost flipped Lindholm a couple weeks after acquiring him. Same management group that almost traded Miller after signing him to a 56m extension.

You think this management wouldn't explore trading Soucy if it made sense? Come on man, you're letting your own hyperbole and bias affect the ability to have constructive conversations.

 

[WTG]

They’ll be trying to keep Joshua and Zadorov. There isn’t much chance of Lindholm coming back.

And unsigned players are a different story. Teams don’t trade good-value contracts at key positions with plenty of term left a year after the contract was signed.

You can discuss it til you’re blue in the face, but Soucy is all but guaranteed to be here on October 1.

Suppose Soucy does get moved down the depth chart to third-pairing defenseman. Not necessarily a key position.

Also, Soucy has a full NTC.

He's a quality player. Good teams will be calling. I do not think it would be particularly hard to find suitors.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Suppose Soucy does get moved down the depth chart to third-pairing defenseman. Not necessarily a key position.

He's a quality player. Good teams will be calling. I do not think it would be particularly hard to find suitors.

This "key position" thing is being overblown.

He's an injury prone 3 LD that plays 17 minutes a night and has been clearly passed by Zadorov.

Can we just stick to facts? Soucy is a fine player but he's replaceable. He's currently our 6th best defenseman behind Hughes, Hronek, Myers, Zadorov and Cole.

 

[Vector]

He's a quality player. Good teams will be calling. I do not think it would be particularly hard to find suitors.

That’s not the issue. He completely controls his destination and can just refuse to waive. He wanted to sign in Vancouver in particular.

 

[JohnHodgson]

That’s not the issue. He completely controls his destination and can just refuse to waive. He wanted to sign in Vancouver in particular.

Good thing this is a message board where the purpose is to discuss possibilities and scenarios.

Any discussions with NTC/NMCs involved obviously already include the assumption that the individual is going to waive.

We're discussing the merits of trading said player, not if the clause would be a roadblock in itself. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. Nobody knows unless you're Carson himself.

 

[JAK]

Good thing this is a message board where the purpose is to discuss possibilities and scenarios.

Any discussions with NTC/NMCs involved obviously already include the assumption that the individual is going to waive.

We're discussing the merits of trading said player, not if the clause would be a roadblock in itself. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. Nobody knows unless you're Carson himself.

Wait, we can just "obviously assume" a player will waive, and not have it impact his trade value??

Do we ignore what other players in the locker room and around the league feels about a team trading away a veteran after they sign a NTC and give the team a good deal?

If we can assume Soucy will waive, why can't we assume that other players will take deep discounts and we won't have to lose Soucy?

 

[JohnHodgson]

Wait, we can just "obviously assume" a player will waive, and not have it impact his trade value??

Do we ignore what other players in the locker room and around the league feels about a team trading away a veteran after they sign a NTC and give the team a good deal?

If we can assume Soucy will waive, why can't we assume that other players will take deep discounts and we won't have to lose Soucy?

I don't see how your comment adds anything of value here. There's no point discussing an NTC/NMC at length for any player because only the agent and the player knows if they would waive to a team.

Players in the locker room don't care about this stuff man. Everyone knows it's a business. Management also doesn't care about this stuff.

We almost traded Lindholm after acquiring him for a couple weeks, and almost traded Miller after signing him to a 56M extension.

We're exploring the concept/merit of a Soucy trade. Not entangling ourselves in the semantics here. Nobody knows if he would waive or not - it's a blackbox.

 

[F A N]

i think it really depends on the cap hit right? 8 years at like 3.25 or 3M is fine in a 100M cap environment.

Probably takes $30-32m to get him signed. Spreading that out over 7-8 years instead of 5-6, and then front load as much as is CBA compliant is good for business.

So you guys prefer an 8 year deal over what Ryan Graves got (6x$4.5M) or 5x$5M AAV?

 

[thecupismine]

What is this Soucy nonsense. Other teams might have cheaper bottom pairing dmen, but the Canucks have shown they don't play their bottom pairing guys bottom pairing minutes. Its Hughes/Hronek, and an even split down the rest of the pairings.

The only reason you even begin to think about this is because you have a Noah Hanafin type of player on your roster and want to keep an elite second pairing in-tact. We don't have that, so you build with the pieces you have in place who understand & know your structure.

We've gone from dogwater level of defensive play to down right elite in one year, and guys like Soucy being amazing in clearing the front of their net & stay in sound position are a massive part of that. There's so, so many better ways to save against the cap than getting rid of a guy who plays 17-19 minutes of solid defense at 3 million a year.

 

[JohnHodgson]

What is this Soucy nonsense. Other teams might have cheaper bottom pairing dmen, but the Canucks have shown they don't play their bottom pairing guys bottom pairing minutes. Its Hughes/Hronek, and an even split down the rest of the pairings.

The only reason you even begin to think about this is because you have a Noah Hanafin type of player on your roster and want to keep an elite second pairing in-tact. We don't have that, so you build with the pieces you have in place who understand & know your structure.

We've gone from dogwater level of defensive play to down right elite in one year, and guys like Soucy being amazing in clearing the front of their net & stay in sound position are a massive part of that. There's so, so many better ways to save against the cap than getting rid of a guy who plays 17-19 minutes of solid defense at 3 million a year.

Sorry bud. I'm trading Soucy to re-sign Joshua or Zadorov anyday of the week.

I think management would agree if I have to be frank. Am I saying this will happen or it will come to that? Not necessarily. Are guys like Lindholm, Joshua and Zadorov showing how important they are to this team? Yes.

 

[mriswith]

Soucy's contract is gold. There's at least 5 guys you dump before you move Soucy.

 

[WTG]

Soucy's contract is gold. There's at least 5 guys you dump before you move Soucy.

Which 5 guys?
Hughes, Hoglander, Suter, Mikheyev, Garland, Boeser, Pettersson, Miller, Demko.

Hronek (RFA), Silovs (RFA)

Aman (ELC), Di Giuseppe (League min), Juulsen (league min)

 

[JT Milker]

bizarre analogy.

It’s not an analogy. Benning traded the guy outperforming his contract to keep the guy underperforming his contract. It’s just literally what happened.

Which 5 guys?
Hughes, Hoglander, Suter, Mikheyev, Garland, Boeser, Pettersson, Miller, Demko.

Hronek (RFA), Silovs (RFA)

Aman (ELC), Di Giuseppe (League min), Juulsen (league min)

You should include pending UFAs that we can let walk too.

 

[Bobby9]

Canes being on the brink may be a massive opportunity for us to pick up a player or players from them. They keep being a top end team that just cannot get it done.

I'd LOVE to get Jarvis and Aho.

EP 40
Hog
Pick

for

Aho
Jarvis

Suter - JT - BB
Jarvis - Aho - March
Dak -Lind- Garl

Try to work some magic and dump Mik and sign Marchessault. End up a very balanced and very deep team.

 

[rypper]

Canes being on the brink may be a massive opportunity for us to pick up a player or players from them. They keep being a top end team that just cannot get it done.

I'd LOVE to get Jarvis and Aho.

EP 40
Hog
Pick

for

Aho
Jarvis

Suter - JT - BB
Jarvis - Aho - March
Dak -Lind- Garl

Try to work some magic and dump Mik and sign Marchessault. End up a very balanced and very deep team.

Why does Carolina do that?

 

[Bobby9]

Why does Carolina do that?

A shake up in this instance.
This is the 3rd or 4th year in a row they've fizzled out in the playoffs due to top end talent. Maybe they think a core shake up is needed.

 

[Josepho]

You let Cole walk before you trade Soucy as well.

Zadorov's contract demands scare the shit out of me and I think Soucy has been better for most of the year.

 

[arttk]

By the time you replace Soucy you save $1 million, and probably take a huge downgrade.

Mikheyev is the guy who goes to free up money. Silovs in for DeSmith as the backup. Aman replaces Blueger. Podkolzin in for Lafferty. That sort of stuff.

Soucy is going nowhere.

There is not enough cap just by getting rid of Mik.
We need to think of ways to improve the team moving forward and that requires sacrifice somewhere.

Like are we going to be happy to have Bluegar as the #2C injury stand in for Miller/Petey? No.
Are we fine with continuing to put plugs beside Petey and limiting that lines potential? No
Are we fine with having with having no Rd depth after Hronek? No.
And then it comes to, ok who do we want to keep that we believe raises the ceiling of the team.

that’s why you end up asking yourself, hey along with Mik, are there more players we need to sacrifice?

 

[mriswith]

Which 5 guys?
Hughes, Hoglander, Suter, Mikheyev, Garland, Boeser, Pettersson, Miller, Demko.

Hronek (RFA), Silovs (RFA)

Aman (ELC), Di Giuseppe (League min), Juulsen (league min)

Mikheyev, Lindholm, Blueger, Myers, Cole all get the metaphorical boot before Soucy. Probably more than that too.