Canucks Managerial Thread

[alternate]

im a potential #2 centre. give me a contract. wont even take a pick

You led the WHL in scoring and put up a PPG in the AHL? Link?

How McKeown turns out doesn't change the fact that it was a terrible trade to make.

A 2nd for a 22 year old PPG in the AHL is terrible? How so?

I'd love to find a worm hole that could take me to an alternate universe where Gillis used a 2nd to take Vey instead of Rodin. For some reason I think after Vey put up 116 points in 69 games during his final year of junior, and 115 points in 117 games over his last 2 years in the AHL, followed by .32 ppg in his rookie NHL season, that opinions of him would be vastly different.

 

[biturbo19]

You led the WHL in scoring and put up a PPG in the AHL? Link?



A 2nd for a 22 year old PPG in the AHL is terrible? How so?

I'd love to find a worm hole that could take me to an alternate universe where Gillis used a 2nd to take Vey instead of Rodin. For some reason I think after Vey put up 116 points in 69 games during his final year of junior, and 115 points in 117 games over his last 2 years in the AHL, followed by .32 ppg in his rookie NHL season, that opinions of him would be vastly different.

Fair points.

[citation needed] on Verv's claim i would think.

 

[Pip]

You led the WHL in scoring and put up a PPG in the AHL? Link?



A 2nd for a 22 year old PPG in the AHL is terrible? How so?

I'd love to find a worm hole that could take me to an alternate universe where Gillis used a 2nd to take Vey instead of Rodin. For some reason I think after Vey put up 116 points in 69 games during his final year of junior, and 115 points in 117 games over his last 2 years in the AHL, followed by .32 ppg in his rookie NHL season, that opinions of him would be vastly different.

.32 ppg is not a good rookie season...

especially with the opportunity he was given. More importantly, he got worse as the season went on. If he started poorly but was a regular contributor by season's end then that's fine, but overall he had a terrible rookie year. Minimal effectiveness at even strength and no production. Demoted off the powerplay for good reason.

Linden Vey has the build of an AHLer and Benning should have taking this into consideration when scouting him. There's a reason why LA decided to trade him. Good developing teams don't get rid of prospects that they see turning out. Vey is simply: not fast enough, not strong enough, and not smart enough to make it as a scoring top 6 (or top 9 player) and this misevaluation falls on our pro scouts and Benning. You take a risk betting against teams about their own prospects, especially teams like LA and Chicago.

 

[Diogenes92]

You led the WHL in scoring and put up a PPG in the AHL? Link?



A 2nd for a 22 year old PPG in the AHL is terrible? How so?

I'd love to find a worm hole that could take me to an alternate universe where Gillis used a 2nd to take Vey instead of Rodin. For some reason I think after Vey put up 116 points in 69 games during his final year of junior, and 115 points in 117 games over his last 2 years in the AHL, followed by .32 ppg in his rookie NHL season, that opinions of him would be vastly different.

WHL and AHL success certainly doesn't equal NHL success. After watching Vey be uneffective for the majority of last year and the entire pre season, it is not that far fetched to be annoyed about Vey making the team. He can take his PPG pace to Utica and hopefully regain his confidence. I don't see Vey having success at the NHL level any time soon.

 

[fancouver]

You led the WHL in scoring and put up a PPG in the AHL? Link?



A 2nd for a 22 year old PPG in the AHL is terrible? How so?

I'd love to find a worm hole that could take me to an alternate universe where Gillis used a 2nd to take Vey instead of Rodin. For some reason I think after Vey put up 116 points in 69 games during his final year of junior, and 115 points in 117 games over his last 2 years in the AHL, followed by .32 ppg in his rookie NHL season, that opinions of him would be vastly different.

No kidding, the 2nd for Vey was a fair deal at the time. He was trending upwards since junior and had career highs every year. Of course hindsight is 20/20, but at the time, it was a calculated risk. You gamble. You win. You gamble. You lose.

Right now? TBD....

 

[sting101]

These boards are starting to get good.

Dorsett,Markstrom,Baertschi, McCann and Virtanen look excellent. Bartkowski and Sutter look good.

Even Luca Sbisa has some realizing that he's the only guy on our defense with some push back despite his misgivings.

Scotty Walker welcome aboard......good hire.

 

[WTG]

None of the vets have looked good IMO.

It's the rooks that are carrying them. Barts looked alright.

Sbisa had 1 OK game paired with the god that is Hutton. Dorsett has been useless as always, Prust slow, Sutter can't pass to save his life, Sedins aren't even trying, Vrbata just taking a nap till regular season starts, Vey has been terrible, Miller is playing the best hockey I've seen since the calgary playoff series.

 

[alternate]

.32 ppg is not a good rookie season...

Might not be "good" but it's not bad either.

especially with the opportunity he was given. More importantly, he got worse as the season went on. If he started poorly but was a regular contributor by season's end then that's fine, but overall he had a terrible rookie year. Minimal effectiveness at even strength and no production. Demoted off the powerplay for good reason.

Lots of rookies get worse as the season wears on. I know he wasn't a rookie pro, but the NHL is another animal. Bo is the exception, many rookies tail of as the season progresses.

Linden Vey has the build of an AHLer and Benning should have taking this into consideration when scouting him. There's a reason why LA decided to trade him. Good developing teams don't get rid of prospects that they see turning out. Vey is simply: not fast enough, not strong enough, and not smart enough to make it as a scoring top 6 (or top 9 player) and this misevaluation falls on our pro scouts and Benning. You take a risk betting against teams about their own prospects, especially teams like LA and Chicago.

Can you please tell the bolded to everyone that still pines for Ehlers or the TO pick. And to anyone that thinks Patty Kane is good. I mean if having an AHL build should exclude our GM from acquiring someone that is.

Sometime good developmental teams get a glut of players and need to reset the clock by acquiring picks for players. But really, the whole "if he was so good why would they let him go" argument is fallacious. Good players, especially undersized ones, get let go by organizations every year. There's oodles of examples, like future HOFer Marty St. Louis.

Obviously Vey isn't a sure thing, if he was no he wouldn't be available. But whether he works or not (I agree that currently it's TBD) I still like the initial trade.

WHL and AHL success certainly doesn't equal NHL success. After watching Vey be uneffective for the majority of last year and the entire pre season, it is not that far fetched to be annoyed about Vey making the team. He can take his PPG pace to Utica and hopefully regain his confidence. I don't see Vey having success at the NHL level any time soon.

I disagree on the entire preseason part. His last two games he played quite well. Generated numerous good chances, and made a bunch of slick little passes. He's at least a serviceable utility 13th forward. Will he ever be more than that? TBD.

 

[Jack Tripper]

No kidding, the 2nd for Vey was a fair deal at the time. He was trending upwards since junior and had career highs every year. Of course hindsight is 20/20, but at the time, it was a calculated risk. You gamble. You win. You gamble. You lose.

Right now? TBD....

there were plenty of people that were sceptical of vey's potential at the time of the deal and rightfully predicted he'd project as a career ahl player

there's also been plenty of commentary and criticism that benning's obsession with some artificially constructed "age gap" problem has forced the team to give up a heap of good picks for waiver eligible prospects that were rejected by the team that originally drafted them

total misrepresentation to classify the vey deal as a 50/50 coin flip in isolation...it had a much lower probability of success than that and was the first of many similar deals that don't look great so far

 

[biturbo19]

.32 ppg is not a good rookie season...

especially with the opportunity he was given. More importantly, he got worse as the season went on. If he started poorly but was a regular contributor by season's end then that's fine, but overall he had a terrible rookie year. Minimal effectiveness at even strength and no production. Demoted off the powerplay for good reason.

Linden Vey has the build of an AHLer and Benning should have taking this into consideration when scouting him. There's a reason why LA decided to trade him. Good developing teams don't get rid of prospects that they see turning out. Vey is simply: not fast enough, not strong enough, and not smart enough to make it as a scoring top 6 (or top 9 player) and this misevaluation falls on our pro scouts and Benning. You take a risk betting against teams about their own prospects, especially teams like LA and Chicago.

Everyone threw a huge tantrum when we fired our head Pro scout (turned promoted to director of player personnel - which includes that perview) Crawford tho...and started actually cleaning house on a staff that has underperformed consistently.


But he was a Gillis guy! He had that one maybe good draft!!!





Ah bollocks this is another Benning thread.

 

[alternate]

there were plenty of people that were sceptical of vey's potential at the time of the deal and rightfully predicted he'd project as a career ahl player

there's also been plenty of commentary and criticism that benning's obsession with some artificially constructed "age gap" problem has forced the team to give up a heap of good picks for waiver eligible prospects that were rejected by the team that originally drafted them

total misrepresentation to classify the vey deal as a 50/50 coin flip in isolation...it had a much lower probability of success than that and was the first of many similar deals that don't look great so far

the good news is that 2nd round pick also has a much lower than 50/50 probability of success. But with Vey, there's zero chance he doesn't make it as at least a good minor league pro, more than can be said about every draft pick.

And nothing has been "rightfully predicted" yet...unless you mean in the same way that many panned the McCann and Virtannen picks, and loved the Schroeder and Hodgson picks...the masses on hfboards screaming loudly doesn't equate to "rightfully predicted".

 

[Jack Tripper]

the good news is that 2nd round pick also has a much lower than 50/50 probability of success. But with Vey, there's zero chance he doesn't make it as at least a good minor league pro, more than can be said about every draft pick.

sorry, hate this logic

upside of vey doesnt equal upside of a 2nd round pick, and every high pick lost gives up a chance at a potential subban or bergeron slider in the draft

this isnt to say that a waiver eligible failed prospect for a 2nd round pick won't always pay off (ie i liked the baertschi deal notwithstanding his poor preseason), but theres a reason so few teams make these types of transactions

you can get guys like vey that are near elite ahl players every offseason for free via free agency, waivers, ect...

 

[alternate]

sorry, hate this logic

upside of vey doesnt equal upside of a 2nd round pick, and every high pick lost gives up a chance at a potential subban or bergeron slider in the draft

this isnt to say that a waiver eligible failed prospect for a 2nd round pick won't always pay off (ie i liked the baertschi deal notwithstanding his poor preseason), but theres a reason so few teams make these types of transactions

you can get guys like vey that are near elite ahl players every offseason for free via free agency, waivers, ect...

But how many of them are 22 and just starting their NHL trials? It's one thing to get a 27 year old or a 32 year old, but in Vey's case he still had (has for that matter) potential.

How did you determine Vey is a "failed prospect" anyhow? Because he got dealt? He's coming off two seasons of PPG in the AHL with a steady upward trend in production. Giving a 2nd for Jensen would be acquiring a failed prospect, Vey was simply a player stuck in the numbers game of a deep organization. I hope all our prospects fail to the degree of PPG in Utica. I'm sure Bad Goalie does as well.

 

[geebaan]

Am I just not watching the games right? All the vets have looked bad and uninspired in their play, were as the rookies actually look like they give a damn. I keep seeing all these post about "Bart looks great, Sutter is an elite centre, Sbisa's even looked good".

I just can't understand these opinions, as Bart has looked like a replacement level defenseman to me, Sutter has been a whole lot of meh, and Sbisa has been turning the puck over at his usual alarming rate. Yeah he hits, but when he turns it over when it counts game after game, who cares that he hits....

 

[Jack Tripper]

But how many of them are 22 and just starting their NHL trials? It's one thing to get a 27 year old or a 32 year old, but in Vey's case he still had (has for that matter) potential.

How did you determine Vey is a "failed prospect" anyhow? Because he got dealt? He's coming off two seasons of PPG in the AHL with a steady upward trend in production. Giving a 2nd for Jensen would be acquiring a failed prospect, Vey was simply a player stuck in the numbers game of a deep organization. I hope all our prospects fail to the degree of PPG in Utica. I'm sure Bad Goalie does as well.

basically the trade was a risk worth taking depending on how you viewed vey as a prospect in the los angelas system, and we'll likely differ on how much potential he had

also there's a fine line between stuck in a numbers game and getting cut / claimed on waivers because he wasnt good enough to make the kings

 

[alternate]

basically the trade was a risk worth taking depending on how you viewed vey as a prospect in the los angelas system, and we'll likely differ on how much potential he had

also there's a fine line between stuck in a numbers game and getting cut / claimed on waivers because he wasnt good enough to make the kings

no disagreement here.

 

[VanillaCoke]

None of the vets have looked good IMO.

It's the rooks that are carrying them. Barts looked alright.

Sbisa had 1 OK game paired with the god that is Hutton. Dorsett has been useless as always, Prust slow, Sutter can't pass to save his life, Sedins aren't even trying, Vrbata just taking a nap till regular season starts, Vey has been terrible, Miller is playing the best hockey I've seen since the calgary playoff series.

Agree with all of this.
Sutter was better last game, still not 4+ million better but atlesst showed something.
Hutton has been mind blowingly good, horvat is the goat, McCann looks like a future top liner. Bartkowski is undersized but more mobile than anyone weve had on D in a ling time, much needed aspect.

Hansen, dorsett, burrows, vrbata all basically invisible. Sedins look like theyre going at 75%, prust and cracknell cant skate but atleast cracknell does other things well. Vey is vey.

 

[WTG]

Linden Vey's production surely had nothing to do with being put in between Toffoli and Weal.

 

[VanillaCoke]

basically the trade was a risk worth taking depending on how you viewed vey as a prospect in the los angelas system, and we'll likely differ on how much potential he had

also there's a fine line between stuck in a numbers game and getting cut / claimed on waivers because he wasnt good enough to make the kings

I feel like the trade thread was almost completely positive. Some concerns a 2nd was high, but generally worth the gamble.

Its turned out poorly so far but there is time for improvement.

 

[Pip]

Might not be "good" but it's not bad either.

It was pretty much as bad as it could possibly be. He showed no glimpse of being a legitimate NHLer.

Can you please tell the bolded to everyone that still pines for Ehlers or the TO pick. And to anyone that thinks Patty Kane is good. I mean if having an AHL build should exclude our GM from acquiring someone that is.

hockey IQ, skating and shooting. By AHLer I mean much more than just size and strength. He doesn't posses the necessary traits to overcome his physical limitations.

 

[CherryToke]

Those are some foundational numbers. thanks for the link

Sutter was a good pick up.

He's an elite 3C that can match up against top centers.
He elevates his game in the playoffs.
His salary is a mild overpayment.....but from his side what do you think he would have gotten as a 27yr old UFA next summer.?
His NTC is really only 3 yrs with half the league available after that.
He's not blocking anyone.
Sedin's are done here in 3 yrs. at which time.....

Horvat (23)
McCann (22)
Sutter (29)
Cassels (23).....that's a group of centers we can win with and only one is of UFA age.

I doubt he's an elite checking center but he's definitely a good checking center and if you put him with Hansen and Burrows there's a pretty good chance that's an elite checking line. if the kid line can stick.. the rest of the top 9 falls into place perfectly.

Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata
Baertschi-Horvat-Virtanen
Burrows-Sutter-Hansen

 

[Zarpan]

Linden Vey's production surely had nothing to do with being put in between Toffoli and Weal.

Vey had more points and a better PPG than Toffoli and Weal in 2012/13. Better PPG than Weal in 2013/14 as well, while Toffoli was mostly with the Kings that year.

His struggles in the NHL shouldn't cause one to view him as a passenger helped by superior linemates in the AHL. Vey is an excellent AHL player, but his strength/speed combination is making his ability to translate that to the NHL difficult.

 

[Verviticus]

vey is a failed prospect because at 24 years old he isnt an nhl player

I feel like the trade thread was almost completely positive. Some concerns a 2nd was high, but generally worth the gamble.

Its turned out poorly so far but there is time for improvement.

i think tiranis and i were definitely against it. i feel like a few others as well

 

[Hit the post]

His struggles in the NHL shouldn't cause one to view him as a passenger helped by superior linemates in the AHL. Vey is an excellent AHL player, but his strength/speed combination is making his ability to translate that to the NHL difficult.

Poor man's Jason Krog?

 

[alternate]

vey is a failed prospect because at 24 years old he isnt an nhl player

Vey wasn't 24 at the time of the trade.