Rumor: Canucks interested in Kravstov

[bernmeister]

The suggestion was offered:

Kravtzov, Jones, and a 2nd for Miller.

you asked:

Would you accept that for Zibanejad?

I requested clarification:
"Is that in a vacuum? Or is that best market bid on a player 1.5 seasons [to make it equivalent]?"

You responded:

...is the answer different?

I wanted to overpay Zib by more than what he got, BUT ONLY IF it were for shorter term AND there were only reasonable + diminishing trade protection clauses. He took a bit less but forced it on his terms.

Setting aside Krav situation has been screwed up by NY shooting itself in the foot, he is still a 9OA talent until he finally gets a legit chance of meaningful mins w/first liners, which will affirm or downgrade that status. Until then you are dealing with a higher echelon prospect, + a top prospect [acknowledged, not elite, but top, yes] + a current 2nd [not morphing into higher pick if NY wins the cup].

It is hard to establish apples to apples here b'c actual Zib contract is long term and he winds up wrong side of 35. He fully controls relocation if any w/nmc. Is that a factor? How important is that to a suitor?

In contrast Miller may want a retirement deal season after next, and it remains to be seen to what extent the market will indulge him, not that he isn't a great player, but cap constraint is real.

In a vacuum, Jones is superfluous, but equiv talent level of Krav, equiv of Jones + 2nd is not unreasonable for 1.5 of Zib or equiv level of talent, w'o retention.

I could see teams offering and holding at less and others overpaying depending on various factors, but if that is the best return and circumstances compel a deal, which is the unstated premise behind your ?, then yes it is reasonable.

imo

if it is more than 1.5 term, it depends on factors to be specified.

 

[CupSeeker]

Yup. Zibby's 20 Powerplay points is definitely not related to Panarin at all.

Mostly Kreider actually. And Fox more than Panarin who is also a great player.

 

[bernmeister]

I'm not making this argument? Nor is the poster you quoted. I can't speak for them but I would also take Zibanejad over Miller.

The argument we're making is that it's a complete stretch to say Zibanejad is offensively in another class compared to Miller. They are currently producing similar stats with Miller having far inferior teammates. There is zero merits to the argument they aren't comparable.

For what it's worth, I am a big fan of the Rangers (1994 notwithstanding) so I catch quite a few Rangers games including attending in-person when they came here back in November. I think the Rangers are a good, but not great team. They are mediocre 5v5, excellent on the powerplay, and their current record is mostly due to Vezina caliber goaltending. I don't think they are a Miller away from being a contender. If they can't sign Miller long-term without losing cost-effective talent, they shouldn't trade for him.

In other words, I agree that the Rangers should not trade for Miller. But I'm not going to sit here and listen to people crap on Miller because of some preconceived notion they have of him back when he was a third liner.

I agree w/da bold which is the bottom line, except I think we are outside contenders at this pt. We match up well w/some contenders, about even with others and a couple own us at present.

Hence we should not be doing any stupid, desperate, overreach gambles that don't usually work, and will have negative consequences, and will narrow our window of 6-7 yrs that is just opening, reducing it to half that or less.
Strategic build down to a core, and carefully add w/further build. Measured splurges only, no short term gain for long term pain.

Key here is to remember: NY can do
vets for vets, vets for youth, and youth for youth
but not youth for vets

 

[QJL]

I agree w/da bold which is the bottom line, except I think we are outside contenders at this pt. We match up well w/some contenders, about even with others and a couple own us at present.

Hence we should not be doing any stupid, desperate, overreach gambles that don't usually work, and will have negative consequences, and will narrow our window of 6-7 yrs that is just opening, reducing it to half that or less.
Strategic build down to a core, and carefully add w/further build. Measured splurges only, no short term gain for long term pain.

Key here is to remember: NY can do
vets for vets, vets for youth, and youth for youth
but not youth for vets

This may be an opinion, but every single writer is talking about Rangers youth going out for vets.

 

[bernmeister]

This may be an opinion, but every single writer is talking about Rangers youth going out for vets.

I can't control that, and as a champion of free speech, I would not want to.
But it doesn't mean that the youth for vets approach is correct.
It is just obvious there are too many negative consequences to doing it.
Of course, not everything is proffered on an objective basis. And I'm sure many of these writers need to provide clickbait, hence sensationalism.

 

[strattonius]

I think Zibanejad is better than Miller; However, there isn't a clear gap like the original post suggested. Miller has been under-rated on here a lot. It's mostly because the Canuck fanbase on this board can be overwhelmingly annoying so posters take a biased disposition against those fans - and its partly because Miller started his career on a 50-60 pt forward trajectory and lots of fans haven't been able to look past that player instead of the JTMiller of today.

 

[Cogburn]

I hear you. Krava is just another player that screwed the Rangers, tanked his value immensely.

Well, if it's any consolation, the Canucks have had more then their share of those too.

 

[Whoot Whoot]

I'd take a 3rd or 4th for this bum

 

[Cogburn]

The suggestion was offered:

you asked:


I requested clarification:
"Is that in a vacuum? Or is that best market bid on a player 1.5 seasons [to make it equivalent]?"

You responded:


I wanted to overpay Zib by more than what he got, BUT ONLY IF it were for shorter term AND there were only reasonable + diminishing trade protection clauses. He took a bit less but forced it on his terms.

Setting aside Krav situation has been screwed up by NY shooting itself in the foot, he is still a 9OA talent until he finally gets a legit chance of meaningful mins w/first liners, which will affirm or downgrade that status. Until then you are dealing with a higher echelon prospect, + a top prospect [acknowledged, not elite, but top, yes] + a current 2nd [not morphing into higher pick if NY wins the cup].

It is hard to establish apples to apples here b'c actual Zib contract is long term and he winds up wrong side of 35. He fully controls relocation if any w/nmc. Is that a factor? How important is that to a suitor?

In contrast Miller may want a retirement deal season after next, and it remains to be seen to what extent the market will indulge him, not that he isn't a great player, but cap constraint is real.

In a vacuum, Jones is superfluous, but equiv talent level of Krav, equiv of Jones + 2nd is not unreasonable for 1.5 of Zib or equiv level of talent, w'o retention.

I could see teams offering and holding at less and others overpaying depending on various factors, but if that is the best return and circumstances compel a deal, which is the unstated premise behind your ?, then yes it is reasonable.

imo

if it is more than 1.5 term, it depends on factors to be specified.

A 22 year old prospect that bailed to play in his home country after not making the team, an undersize, puck moving LHD (an organizational strength for both teams) and a 2nd round pick.

I've got to say, I was expecting a resounding "no", which is why I was confused as to what perimeters could change that.

Even for a year and a half of Zibanejad, if that package was offered for him this time last year, before he could sign his extension, Rangers fans would have burned this forum to the ground.

 

[Lawzy]

I agree w/da bold which is the bottom line, except I think we are outside contenders at this pt. We match up well w/some contenders, about even with others and a couple own us at present.

Hence we should not be doing any stupid, desperate, overreach gambles that don't usually work, and will have negative consequences, and will narrow our window of 6-7 yrs that is just opening, reducing it to half that or less.
Strategic build down to a core, and carefully add w/further build. Measured splurges only, no short term gain for long term pain.

Key here is to remember: NY can do
vets for vets, vets for youth, and youth for youth
but not youth for vets

There are a handful of goaltenders in the league that I would argue could take any playoff caliber team on a run and Shesterkin is one of them. Even in poor matchups I think Shesterkin could likely carry them against any team in the NHL if he's hot.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

A 22 year old prospect that bailed to play in his home country after not making the team, an undersize, puck moving LHD (an organizational strength for both teams) and a 2nd round pick.

I've got to say, I was expecting a resounding "no", which is why I was confused as to what perimeters could change that.

Even for a year and a half of Zibanejad, if that package was offered for him this time last year, before he could sign his extension, Rangers fans would have burned this forum to the ground.

The difference is the Zibanejad was never even offered for trade and the Canucks feel as if they need to move this player.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Can you quantify this with anything other than a biased eye test

Biased eye test? My dude I've seen both of these guys play for years. Zibanejad has a better shot, is a better passer, better shorthanded, and better on the powerplay. All his physical tools are a step above Miller's.

How many times has JT Miller scored 40 goals in a season? How many times has he scored 30 in a season? The answer to both questions are the same: never

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

How so? ZIbanejad has a top 10 player in Panarin to play with. Zib and JT have similar career PPG with Zib having a slight edge. To say they are in a different class is NOT correct, both players are very good and are both key players for their respected team.

Tell me you don't watch the Rangers without telling me you don't watch the Rangers

 

[Cogburn]

The difference is the Zibanejad was never even offered for trade and the Canucks feel as if they need to move this player.

Do you have any evidence Miller was "offered for trade" though? We've got a few insiders saying there is interest in a player, not that the Canucks are shopping him around. Canucks fans feel they need to move him, for some reason.

But that's moving the goal posts here. This time last year, if the Rangers were offered Madden, Juolevi and a 2nd? Or Puljujarvi, Lagesson and a 2nd? Or last year's Crouse, Capobianco and a 2nd?

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Yup. Zibby's 20 Powerplay points is definitely not related to Panarin at all.

Panarin and Zibanejad being on the same unit for the first half of the season actually hurt Zibanejad's production. They had Panarin on the left wall all first half and Zibanejad was in the bumper getting minimal touches. They've since switched Zibanejad back to that spot to let him use the one timer again and it's been a huge improvement.

Part of this initially was Zibanejad's fault; he started the year off slowly and it took him about 20 games to find the release on his one timer, so Gallant put Panarin in that spot for the deflection option. See: Chris Kreider stats

 

[Cogburn]

Biased eye test? My dude I've seen both of these guys play for years. Zibanejad has a better shot, is a better passer, better shorthanded, and better on the powerplay. All his physical tools are a step above Miller's.

How many times has JT Miller scored 40 goals in a season? How many times has he scored 30 in a season? The answer to both questions are the same: never

So...biased eye test it is then.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

So...biased eye test it is then.

I literally provided quantitative facts. If 41 goals in 57 games while Miller has never scored 30 is what you wanna call a biased eye test, then sure. Most people attempt to at least maintain some shred of credibility, but good on ya

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Do you have any evidence Miller was "offered for trade" though? We've got a few insiders saying there is interest in a player, not that the Canucks are shopping him around. Canucks fans feel they need to move him, for some reason.

But that's moving the goal posts here. This time last year, if the Rangers were offered Madden, Juolevi and a 2nd? Or Puljujarvi, Lagesson and a 2nd? Or last year's Crouse, Capobianco and a 2nd?

Again, the Rangers weren't interested in moving Zibanejad like the Canucks are apparently interested in moving Miller, so it's not the same situation. Are the Canucks re-signing Miller? There's been far more talk about moving him than there has re-signing him. From last year on the talk with the Rangers was their intention to re-sign Zib, and they did. These two situations didn't happen in a vacuum. And also, because Zib is the better player.

 

[Cogburn]

I literally provided quantitative facts. If 41 goals in 57 games while Miller has never scored 30 is what you wanna call a biased eye test, then sure. Most people attempt to at least maintain some shred of credibility, but good on ya

Your second sentence is literally, well here:

My dude I've seen both of these guys play for years

The career differences between the two players, with Zibanejad having played a year more than Miller, is 79 points in 49 more games. Miller has more consistent, and better, advanced stats metrics (most of Zibby's best years are before he joined New York, by the way), and has performed better in the playoffs.

Since joining the Canucks, Miller has more assists than Zibanejad too, so I don't know where this "better passer" idea comes from. In similar roles, with other star players being present on the team (Zibanejad nor Miller play exclusively with the top end talent, night in, night out) they are similar, with Miller coming out 14 assists ahead.

Shooting percentage too, Zibanejad beat Miller with a 19.2 S% to 16.4, and then it drops for both players to Zibanejads' 14.0 and 13.3 and Miller has 14.2 and 14.9 last year, then this year. Miller has a 15.3 shooting average, Zibanejad has 14.2. Careerwise, someone has 13.1 and the other has 14.2, which might be a small number, but over a career...well Zibanejad doesn't have a better shot according to any measurable, non eye-test statistics.

Miller not scoring 30 goals, but having similar numbers, shows me that Zibanejad is less consistent too. Miller's usage behind guys like Stamkos really nerfed some of the stats he could have put up too.

Mika Zibanejad Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
J.T. Miller Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

For the record, my argument is not that Zibanejad is worse than Miller, just that the idea that Zibanejad is "on another level" as one of the other Rangers' posted, isn't true.

 

[sting101]

Biased eye test? My dude I've seen both of these guys play for years. Zibanejad has a better shot, is a better passer, better shorthanded, and better on the powerplay. All his physical tools are a step above Miller's.

How many times has JT Miller scored 40 goals in a season? How many times has he scored 30 in a season? The answer to both questions are the same: never

For the last 3yrs their ES scoring is at par. So is their PP scoring. With all those better tools why is that? surely Zibanejad should be getting more points then with all those tools. Miller has a superior Corsi% faceoffs is more physical

It's obvious your projecting the Rangers Miller into your analysis as there is nothing statistical to suggest Zibanejad is on another tier

Furthermore Panarin and Fox his PP cohorts were almost winning scoring titles for their respective positions who exactly was Miller able to pass to that was having that kind of success? Hughes stunk last year and only this year has even came into the conversation with Fox and Panarin has been much better than Pettersson who was injured and struggled this year. Kreider and Buchnevich was a sick set of line mates also so i'm just not seeing any reason why Zibanejad shouldn't have greatly outscored him comparatively to line mates yet that's not what happened.

It's ok i get it it's late to watch west coast games i probably wouldn't stay up till 1am either

 

[Lawzy]

I literally provided quantitative facts. If 41 goals in 57 games while Miller has never scored 30 is what you wanna call a biased eye test, then sure. Most people attempt to at least maintain some shred of credibility, but good on ya

Your second sentence is literally, well here:



The career differences between the two players, with Zibanejad having played a year more than Miller, is 79 points in 49 more games. Miller has more consistent, and better, advanced stats metrics (most of Zibby's best years are before he joined New York, by the way), and has performed better in the playoffs.

Since joining the Canucks, Miller has more assists than Zibanejad too, so I don't know where this "better passer" idea comes from. In similar roles, with other star players being present on the team (Zibanejad nor Miller play exclusively with the top end talent, night in, night out) they are similar, with Miller coming out 14 assists ahead.

Shooting percentage too, Zibanejad beat Miller with a 19.2 S% to 16.4, and then it drops for both players to Zibanejads' 14.0 and 13.3 and Miller has 14.2 and 14.9 last year, then this year. Miller has a 15.3 shooting average, Zibanejad has 14.2. Careerwise, someone has 13.1 and the other has 14.2, which might be a small number, but over a career...well Zibanejad doesn't have a better shot according to any measurable, non eye-test statistics.

Miller not scoring 30 goals, but having similar numbers, shows me that Zibanejad is less consistent too. Miller's usage behind guys like Stamkos really nerfed some of the stats he could have put up too.

Mika Zibanejad Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
J.T. Miller Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

For the record, my argument is not that Zibanejad is worse than Miller, just that the idea that Zibanejad is "on another level" as one of the other Rangers' posted, isn't true.

I'm bored so here are some more nuanced stats. These are from the last 3 seasons, i.e. 2019 - 2022 (since Miller joined the Canucks), and are taken from Natural Stat Trick and/or NHL.com. I think we can all agree Miller pre- and post-Canucks is a different argument altogether but feel free to grab career stats if you want.

I didn't include PK stats because Mika is far and away the better performer there. Just as Miller is clearly superior on the dot and more physical.

Again, I want to reiterate that I don't think Miller > Zibanejad. But considering Miller has been playing on the clearly inferior team, I think these stats show the players are fairly comparable. Anyways, I'll stop derailing the thread now.

	Vancouver Canucks	New York Rangers
P%	0.511	0.587
GF/GP	2.84	3.18
GA/GP	3.06	2.87
PP%	21.0	22.9
PK%	77.6	80.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

	Miller	Zibanejad
ES G/60	0.94	1.09
ES A/60	1.28	1.48
ES P/60	2.21	2.57
ES GF/60	3.31	3.43
ES GA/60	3.15	3.00
PP G/60	1.66	3.75
PP A/60	4.69	2.78
PP P/60	6.35	6.53
PP GF/60	8.7	10.39
PP GA/60	0.59	0.64

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Cogburn]

I'm bored so here are some more nuanced stats. These are from the last 3 seasons, i.e. 2019 - 2022 (since Miller joined the Canucks), and are taken from Natural Stat Trick and/or NHL.com. I think we can all agree Miller pre- and post-Canucks is a different argument altogether but feel free to grab career stats if you want.

I didn't include PK stats because Mika is far and away the better performer there. Just as Miller is clearly superior on the dot and more physical.

Again, I want to reiterate that I don't think Miller > Zibanejad. But considering Miller has been playing on the clearly inferior team, I think these stats show the players are fairly comparable. Anyways, I'll stop derailing the thread now.

	Vancouver Canucks	New York Rangers
P%	0.511	0.587
GF/GP	2.84	3.18
GA/GP	3.06	2.87
PP%	21.0	22.9
PK%	77.6	80.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

	Miller	Zibanejad
ES G/60	0.94	1.09
ES A/60	1.28	1.48
ES P/60	2.21	2.57
ES GF/60	3.31	3.43
ES GA/60	3.15	3.00
PP G/60	1.66	3.75
PP A/60	4.69	2.78
PP P/60	6.35	6.53
PP GF/60	8.7	10.39
PP GA/60	0.59	0.64

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It's always nice to have statistics broken down further. I mean I concede Zibanejad has been the better scorer, but those number aren't miles ahead of Miller either, even out of context.

 

[Canuck86]

Zibanejad plays with Kreider not Panarin.

Sorry, playing with the league goal scoring leader who is having a career year...

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Sorry, playing with the league goal scoring leader who is having a career year...

And why do you think that is, could it be because Kreider is playing with Zib? Thanks for playing.

 

[Canuck86]

Tell me you don't watch the Rangers without telling me you don't watch the Rangers

No shit sherlock, just like NYR fans do NOT watch JT Miller and the Canucks...then you would clearly see he is an all situations top line forward who has clearly been the Canucks best player since he came to Vancouver.

Canucks are NOT in a Cup winning situation right now, hence why it makes the MOST sense to capitalize on his value and trade him. When the Canucks are a perennial playoff team and potential contender JT Miller will be on his next contract, Canucks will also have to pay Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson, Hoglander, Podkolzin etc to new deals...meaning Canucks need to deal JT before his contract expires.