Value of: Canucks Fire Sale

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Lol...why don't you read it. And yes corporate support is part of a strong hockey market.

You can make any value judgements you want about what a true fan is but I suspect I've been following this team a lot longer than you.

After 36 seasons of watching I want my team to compete for a cup not aspire to being mediocre.

Corporate support is the biggest reason we had such a long sell out streak, hence why the streak ending correlated with these companies not buying season tickets anymore. We used to have a very long waiting list to even get a chance at season tickets, this waiting list no longer exists, do you really think that's just a coincidence?

You have been following the team for 4 years more than me, wow such a long time.

You mentioned the Sedin's as players that were drafted in the top 3 who were integral to us getting to a cup in 2011, I totally agree with this assertion, don't think many would say you were wrong. When the Sedin's were brought up after leaving the SEL, they were part of a team that had one of the greatest lines in hockey (at the time) in the west coast express, they have talked about having players like Morrison and Naslund to learn from played a major role in their development. This is what Benning is trying to do, keep this team competitive so that our young players can develop properly, we have all seen the opposite of this with the oilers, as a fan of this team that is the last thing that I want. Rebuilding means selling these players that could very well play a huge role in developing guys like Horvat, Juolevi, Boeser, Virtanen etc. Why wouldn't you want that?

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

The notion that Benning "fleeced" Florida is laughable. McCann was a 1st round pick tracking very well, he clearly wasn't NHL ready yet the Canucks kept him up the entire year, if he played in junior and ripped it up his stock would have obviously been much higher on here. Gudbranson was 5th in TOI for Florida Dman last year, suggesting this guy is a top 4 dman is completely and utterly wrong and can't be backed up with any factual and objective evidence. The Canucks essentially traded two first round picks for a guy that's been in the league for 5 years and hasn't proven himself as a top 4 guy yet. Florida was able to not only pick up these assets, they used the cap space to sign two significantly better dman in Yandle and Demers.

Tracking to be what? We don't know what he is yet and he could very well end up a bottom sixer. On our team right now Guds is a top 4 dman. We know that.

Gudbranson averaged 26 mins a game in the playoffs for the panthers last year, seems like a top 4 dman to me and at the most important time of the year. He averaged 20 mins a game last year too, again seems like top 4 mins to me.

 

[Ryuji Yamazaki]

Benning fleeced FLA on the Gudbranson trade. The guy is a horse and will be a top 4 dman on the Canucks for many years to come. Jury is still out on McCann, he could quite easily amount to nothing at all and it's impossible to argue his ceiling is higher than Gudbranson's at this point in time.

I agree with going younger, but you never go full Oil, icing a decent D is imperative when trying to develop younger players.

Lol sure he did.

Just out of curiousity, what kind of contract do you expect Gudbranson to sign after this season?

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Lol sure he did.

Just out of curiousity, what kind of contract do you expect Gudbranson to sign after this season?

You don't like Gudbranson right? Your an analytics person aren't you?

 

[ginner classic]

This is what Benning is trying to do, keep this team competitive so that our young players can develop properly, we have all seen the opposite of this with the oilers, as a fan of this team that is the last thing that I want. Rebuilding means selling these players that could very well play a huge role in developing guys like Horvat, Juolevi, Boeser, Virtanen etc. Why wouldn't you want that?

There is no defence for Benning's body of work at this point. It's an incoherent strategy and has proven to lead to failure in places like Calgary, NYR, and Toronto. He's trying and failing to even tread water. They are in denial about the true state of the team and are compounding their mistakes chasing after a mirage. Nothing good can happen until the ownership is humbled at the gate, and proper management are brought in and allowed to do their job. We will never win with poor quality management, scouting and player development. End of story.

I bide my time as many do.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

There is no defence for Benning's body of work at this point. It's an incoherent strategy and has proven to lead to failure in places like Calgary, NYR, and Toronto. He's trying and failing to even tread water. They are in denial about the true state of the team and are compounding their mistakes chasing after a mirage. Nothing good can happen until the ownership is humbled at the gate, and proper management are brought in and allowed to do their job. We will never win with poor quality management, scouting and player development. End of story.

I bide my time as many do.

No strategy? Is building from the goaltender out not a strategy?


All of these teams traded multiple 1st rounders, in many cases before the pick was even drafted for older vets to try and win now, Benning has traded two former 1st rounders for players we need now and in the future, that are below the age of 25, not the same at all, he has also built from the goal out, our blue line is in far better shape then when he took over. We have one of the best goalie prospects in the world to go along with a guy in Markstrom who looks better every year. He has traded multiple 2nd rounders which I am not a fan of, I'll give you that, he has bled away too many assets, most of which have been picks that are at best 3rd liners or bottom pairing dmen. Not exactly detrimental. Also Benning said months ago that he would not be trading away picks so generously any more.

You clearly hate everything that Benning is doing, other than the obvious (not giving up 2nd and 3rd round picks so easily) what would you do differently? Really curious?

 

[PetterssonSimp]

Lol sure he did.u

Just out of curiousity, what kind of contract do you expect Gudbranson to sign after this season?

20-22 million total 5 year term. Basically in line with the other Canucks defenders.

 

[DANOZ28]

what would it take to get brock boeser in a wild uniform?

 

[JuniorNelson]

nothing good can happen until the ownership is humbled at the gate, and proper management are brought in and allowed to do their job. We will never win with poor quality management, scouting and player development. End of story.

I bide my time as many do.

qft!

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

what would it take to get brock boeser in a wild uniform?

He is the only forward prospect we have right now that looks like a sure fire 1st liner, it would take more than your team would be willing to pay.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

what would it take to get brock boeser in a wild uniform?

A scoring forward aged 19-21 with first line 30-35 goal potential.
Got one? No... We'll keep ours.

 

[Ryuji Yamazaki]

You don't like Gudbranson right? Your an analytics person aren't you?

I like Gudbranson.

I don't ignore analytics.

20-22 million total 5 year term. Basically in line with the other Canucks defenders.

Yikes

 

[ginner classic]

You clearly hate everything that Benning is doing, other than the obvious (not giving up 2nd and 3rd round picks so easily) what would you do differently? Really curious?

At this point most of the trade cards have been taken away. We have no depth at the AHL level to really deal.

1.) Fire all North American pro scouts (Pedan, Clendening, Sbisa, Prust, Dorsett, Vey, Baertschi (we overpaid for him...don't care if u don't agree), Granlund (was not needed). All of these players are waiver-wire quality pick ups)
2.) Fire Ron Delorme (this is just so bloody obvious it's not even worth mentioning)
3.) Fire son Benning (Nepotism is just gross)
4.) Fire Weisbrod and Re-hire Gillman
5.) Leverage current 3 million in cap space to take on a contract for a pick if possible. (SEE BELOW AS WELL)
6.) Trade Ryan Miller 50% retained at the deadline (must do) for highest possible pick
7.) Trade Hansen at the deadline for a Hajek or Juulsen type prospect D or high 2nd rounder.
8.) Retain 50% salary to move Sbisa out. He's actually palatable at 1.7M for one more year.
9.) Trade Subban for a 3rd if we can get it. Stecher has that spot sewn up IMO and there is no point making the kid suffer. I'm fine keeping him until he hates us though.
10.) Fire WD at the conclusion of the season. Retaining him for this year is the only tank-like thing I'd do.
11.) Trade Larsen at the deadline and call up Stecher. Whatever pick we can get is fine.
12.) Send Virtanen down to the AHL until the trade deadline.

That strategy would take us up to the expansion draft. Sometime before the expansion draft, I would also talk to Tampa and Anaheim to see if I could get a decent prospect to pick up Filppula or Bieksa provided they waive the NMC for the expansion draft (can be done as far as I know). Both have cap issues going forward and protection issues for the expansion draft. Filppula actually has some utility next year. If it's a Bieksa....meh....if I can get a good prospect, I'd suffer with his contract for one more year. Character guy. Don't care if he's declined. Can replace Burrows as our Albatross contract provided the incentive is good enough.

Outcome:
Strong veteran leadership still in place.
Added picks.
Leveraged cap situation.
Moved out expiring contracts without losing the value for nothing.
Created space for youngsters.
Most importantly....got rid of the bad people which burden the organization.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

I like Gudbranson.

I don't ignore analytics.



Yikes

I though you were one of the fans that hated him, guess I was wrong.


4.4 million for a top 4 is too much?

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

At this point most of the trade cards have been taken away. We have no depth at the AHL level to really deal.

1.) Fire all North American pro scouts (Pedan, Clendening, Sbisa, Prust, Dorsett, Vey, Baertschi (we overpaid for him...don't care if u don't agree))
2.) Fire Ron Delorme (this is just so bloody obvious it's not even worth mentioning)
3.) Fire son Benning (Nepotism is just gross)
4.) Fire Weisbrod and Re-hire Gillman
5.) Leverage current 3 million in cap space to take on a contract for a pick if possible. (SEE BELOW AS WELL)
6.) Trade Ryan Miller 50% retained at the deadline (must do) for highest possible pick
7.) Trade Hansen at the deadline for a Hajek or Juulsen type prospect D or high 2nd rounder.
8.) Retain 50% salary to move Sbisa out. He's actually palatable at 1.7M for one more year.
9.) Trade Subban for a 3rd if we can get it. Stecher has that spot sewn up IMO and there is no point making the kid suffer. I'm fine keeping him until he hates us though.
10.) Fire WD at the conclusion of the season. Retaining him for this year is the only tank-like thing I'd do.
11.) Trade Larsen at the deadline and call up Stecher. Whatever pick we can get is fine.
12.) Send Virtanen down to the AHL until the trade deadline.

That strategy would take us up to the expansion draft. I would also talk to Tampa and Anaheim to see if I could get a decent prospect to pick up Filppula or Bieksa provided they waive the NMC for the expansion draft (can be done as far as I know). Both have cap issues going forward and protection issues for the expansion draft. Filppula actually has some utility next year. If it's a Bieksa....meh....if I can get a good prospect, I'd suffer with his contract for one more year. Character guy. Don't care if he's declined. Can replace Burrows as our Albatross contract provided the incentive is good enough.

Outcome:
Strong veteran leadership still in place.
Added picks.
Leveraged cap situation.
Moved out expiring contracts without losing the value for nothing.
Created space for youngsters.
Most importantly....got rid of the bad people which burden the organization.

LOL I actually agree with what you have said for the most part, I do think Sbisa is overpaid, but a decent bottom paring guy. In terms of coaching, though I really can't see us getting a coach that would be better than WD, I feel like he is just playing the cards that are dealt to him. Our drafting since Benning has got here has actually been pretty decent too even in later rounds, Tryamkin, Briesbois, even Mckenzie is looking like a steal so far from last year.

If he lives up to his word and stops dealing away picks, do you think your opinion would change, or is it hopeless?

 

[ginner classic]

LOL I actually agree with what you have said for the most part, I do think Sbisa is overpaid, but a decent bottom paring guy. In terms of coaching, though I really can't see us getting a coach that would be better than WD, I feel like he is just playing the cards that are dealt to him. Our drafting since Benning has got here has actually been pretty decent too even in later rounds, Tryamkin, Briesbois, even Mckenzie is looking like a steal so far from last year.

If he lives up to his word and stops dealing away picks, do you think your opinion would change, or is it hopeless?

He has hired bad people. He will continue to do so. He can't negotiate trades or contracts. He doesn't understand the CBA and has not hired people that do. He has a blind spot to analytics and technology. He wants to scout.

He's a nice guy but I think he is a dinosaur. We can't win with him in the role he is in.

Disagree on WD. He has show no tactial nous and is stubborn. He plays favourites with people he has coached before. Non-starter for me. Would never, ever bring him back.

 

[ginner classic]

I though you were one of the fans that hated him, guess I was wrong.


4.4 million for a top 4 is too much?

I am quite concerned about Gudbranson's next contract. I like him. I would have targeted him. Benning's best acquisition, though I hated the price. Had we picked up a late first for Hamhuis it would have been fine. We missed out on a Hajek/Klague type prospect.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

He has hired bad people. He will continue to do so. He can't negotiate trades or contracts. He doesn't understand the CBA and has not hired people that do. He has a blind spot to analytics and technology. He wants to scout.

He's a nice guy but I think he is a dinosaur. We can't win with him in the role he is in.

Disagree on WD. He has show no tactial nous and is stubborn. He plays favourites with people he has coached before. Non-starter for me. Would never, ever bring him back.

I can see this point to, we need to bring in another guy that can make deals and trade and leave development and scouting to Benning. Kind of a ying to his yang.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

I am quite concerned about Gudbranson's next contract. I like him. I would have targeted him. Benning's best acquisition, though I hated the price. Had we picked up a late first for Hamhuis it would have been fine. We missed out on a Hajek/Klague type prospect.

The price was too much, but if he turns into that top 4 anchor with Hutton, I can deal with it.

I think Hamhuis and ownership are the reason Hammer wasn't traded.

 

[Addison Rae]

Tracking to be what? We don't know what he is yet and he could very well end up a bottom sixer. On our team right now Guds is a top 4 dman. We know that.

Gudbranson averaged 26 mins a game in the playoffs for the panthers last year, seems like a top 4 dman to me and at the most important time of the year. He averaged 20 mins a game last year too, again seems like top 4 mins to me.

You clearly don't seem to understand what tracking mean, he had an excellent draft + 1 season and made a NHL roster in his draft +2 seasons. That's absolutely excellent progress for a late first round pick.

As for Gudbranson it's absolutely down right laughable that people ignore his TOI for the season and just focus on a 6 game sample size where his TOI was inflated due to numerous overtimes.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

You clearly don't seem to understand what tracking mean, he had an excellent draft + 1 season and made a NHL roster in his draft +2 seasons. That's absolutely excellent progress for a late first round pick.

As for Gudbranson it's absolutely down right laughable that people ignore his TOI for the season and just focus on a 6 game sample size where his TOI was inflated due to numerous overtimes.

Sooo that means he is destined to be a superstar? He still could just as likely end up a bottom sixer and last year he clearly wasn't ready for the big club, which you have stated, but then you use that as a metric to say how good he has been? LOL

When he was drafted he was touted as a 3rd liner, with a ceiling of a 2nd liner, has that changed? We got a young top 4 dman for him, which we needed more than anything else.


Gudbranson averaged 20 mins a game DURING THE REGULAR SEASON, those are top 4 mins bud. His coach called him one of the most important dmen on the team, Pierre McGuire also went on about how good he looked. Whats downright laughable is how little you seem to know about the guy.

 

[ginner classic]

The price was too much, but if he turns into that top 4 anchor with Hutton, I can deal with it.

I think Hamhuis and ownership are the reason Hammer wasn't traded.

They approached him too late on the NTC while they clung to a misguided belief that making the playoffs was smart or even remotely possible. Completely insane. Don't care who was at fault....it was a horrid call. I'd have been talking to him while he was out injured about trade scenarios....not waiting until days before the deadline.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

They approached him too late on the NTC while they clung to a misguided belief that making the playoffs was smart or even remotely possible. Completely insane. Don't care who was at fault....it was a horrid call. I'd have been talking to him while he was out injured about trade scenarios....not waiting until days before the deadline.

True.

 

[Addison Rae]

Sooo that means he is destined to be a superstar? He still could just as likely end up a bottom sixer and last year he clearly wasn't ready for the big club, which you have stated, but then you use that as a metric to say how good he has been? LOL

Gudbranson averaged 20 mins a game DURING THE REGULAR SEASON, those are top 4 mins bud. His coach called him one of the most important dmen on the team, Pierre McGuire also went on about how good he looked. Whats downright laughable is how little you seem to know about the guy.

Please don't engage in arguments if you're going to put words in people's mouths. Do you know what development is? McCann has progressed incredibly well since being drafted, he had an excellent draft +1 year and made a NHL roster in year 2. Sure, he wasn't ready but for a late first round picks he's done everything you'd want from him.

How about we don't anoint someone who was 5th on his team but in TOI a top 4 guy, it's absolutely ridiculous because there's no evidence that points towards it. Please, don't tell me I know little about a player when you don't even understand his stats relative to his teammates. As for his coach saying he was one of the teams most important players, do you not think coaches have say on managements moves? If that were the case they wouldn't have traded Gudbranson to start with.

Please construct an argument with objective information on how Erik Gubranson is a top 4 dman over a large sample size.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Please don't engage in arguments if you're going to put words in people's mouths. Do you know what development is? McCann has progressed incredibly well since being drafted, he had an excellent draft +1 year and made a NHL roster in year 2. Sure, he wasn't ready but for a late first round picks he's done everything you'd want from him.

How about we don't anoint someone who was 5th on his team but in TOI a top 4 guy, it's absolutely ridiculous because there's no evidence that points towards it. Please, don't tell me I know little about a player when you don't even understand his stats relative to his teammates. As for his coach saying he was one of the teams most important players, do you not think coaches have say on managements moves? If that were the case they wouldn't have traded Gudbranson to start with.

Please construct an argument with objective information on how Erik Gubranson is a top 4 dman over a large sample size.

I do know what development is and he has progressed well, you act like he looks like a sure fire top liner, he still looks exactly like a guy with a ceiling of a 2nd liner and the floor of a bottom sixer, which is what we drafted.

Also who is the 4th player that had more ice time than Gudbranson? Over the entire regular season, I can only find Ekblad, Campbell, and Kulikov as guys that had more ice time than Guds over the entire season, who is the 4th player?