Value of: Canucks Fire Sale

[Randy Randerson]

If you have the best scouts in the league you can find great players. We do not have the best scouts in the league. We still have Delorme on staff. We employ Jim Benning's son. We now let an assistant GM make a pick-by-gut-feel. Our pro scouts are complete idiots.

If you employ the best hockey minds and do a great job of drafting and development and retain as many picks as you can...and make great trades...and make great signings you can extend a successful period while not drafting top 10.

That is not the Vancouver Canucks.

Agree, I think at some point you guys need a rebuild...and probably a house cleaning of the management staff before that happens. Let a smart, analytics driven (or at least analytics aware) group take the reigns with an asset-management mind set and a long range plan

Juolevi and Boeser look like great pieces, so maybe swing for the fences on every pick and hope to catch lightning in a bottle, but in all likelihood a real rebuild will have to happen at some point and I don't think you'll be in any risk of losing the team if that happens - maybe an impatient private ownership group will grumble, but they didn't get to the level of wealth that affords them to own an NHL hockey club without being able to see the big picture

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Strawman. I never said top 3 was a guarantee of success.

No Detroit did not win back to back cups without a top 3 pick in their lineup. Steve Yzerman says hi.

Care to explain how Yzerman helped them win a cup in 2008 when he retired in 2006? They went to back to back Stanley cups in 2008 and 2009, only won in 2008.

 

[ginner classic]

Care to explain how Yzerman helped them win a cup in 2008 when he retired in 2006? They went to back to back Stanley cups in 2008 and 2009, only won in 2008.

I said detroit did not WIN back to back cups without a top 3 pick.

Body of evidence on my side....one exceptional well managed outlier on yours.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

I said detroit did not WIN back to back cups without a top 3 pick.

Body of evidence on my side....one exceptional well managed outlier on yours.

I said they went to back to back cups, not that they won back to back, reading comprehension appears to be on my side.

Exceptional outlier? It was drafting well outside the 1st round, which Benning has proved to be good at, on every team he has been a part of.

 

[ginner classic]

I said they went to back to back cups, not that they won back to back, reading comprehension appears to be on my side.

Exceptional outlier? It was drafting well outside the 1st round, which Benning has proved to be good at, on every team he has been a part of.

If Benning did not consistently trade his picks for long-shot, short-term solutions recommended by idiotic pro scouts I might have some confidence that he'd be able to draft his way out of the problem.

And yes...>Detroit was an exceptionally well managed team with some elite scouts. We are a horrifically managed team with a GM that wants to be an elite scout.

There is zero chance the team can win a cup with their current strategy.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

If Benning did not consistently trade his picks for long-shot, short-term solutions recommended by idiotic pro scouts I might have some confidence that he'd be able to draft his way out of the problem.

And yes...>Detroit was an exceptionally well managed team with some elite scouts. We are a horrifically managed team with a GM that wants to be an elite scout.

There is zero chance the team can win a cup with their current strategy.

Once again agree to disagree. I have said Benning has traded away too many picks and no every deal did not work out, but many have so far, Baertchi, Sutter, Gudbranson, Granlund, all players that are young and contributing to this team being competitive now and raising our young players like Horvat, Virtanen, Boeser (when he is done with ND state), Juolevi (when he comes to the big club) in a competitive environment sounds better then selling our best players and betting on a lottery pick, which worked so well for Edmonton, Carolina, Columbus etc.

 

[ginner classic]

Once again agree to disagree. I have said Benning has traded away too many picks and no every deal did not work out, but many have so far, Baertchi, Sutter, Gudbranson, Granlund, all players that are young and contributing to this team being competitive now and raising our young players like Horvat, Virtanen, Boeser (when he is done with ND state), Juolevi (when he comes to the big club) in a competitive environment sounds better then selling our best players and betting on a lottery pick, which worked so well for Edmonton, Carolina, Columbus etc.

The team is lucky to have you as a fan. We agree to disagree on pretty much every major point.

What led to the Canucks being in the Forbes top ten most valuable franchises year after year has a lot to do with this being a big hockey market. It can sustain a rebuild. Without it they will continue to bleed revenue from their base.

Quite happy to let it play out and know I was right. Would much rather be wrong.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

The team is lucky to have you as a fan. We agree to disagree on pretty much every major point.

What led to the Canucks being in the Forbes top ten most valuable franchises year after year has a lot to do with this being a big hockey market. It can sustain a rebuild. Without it they will continue to bleed revenue from their base.

Quite happy to let it play out and know I was right. Would much rather be wrong.

Wrong once again, its the corporate support that really lead to this.

In my opinion a true fan wants to see their team compete every year, a true fan would not cheer for the team to lose.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Virtanen should not be part of a fire sale. It's still too early to call him a bust. He needs some seasoning in Utica for a season or two i think, we definitely rushed him.

Crazy idea here, but would any contender consider both sedins (with one $7 mil retained) for a pick, prospect and an up and coming centerman? that's 2/3rds of a solid second line for a run.

i think a contender should... theres the problem reguarding cap room.

if vancouver was retaining half of both contracts then as a gm of the oilers i think a return of hopkins and a first would be a fair return.

i think a couple superstar vets like sedins would really help kids like mcdavid and draisailt deal with being superstars in a fishbowl marketplace... and playing as a second line should let sedins continue to dominate

maybe edmonton would even give up more but hopkins could still blossum with a new team. i think he was a worthy pick... just struggles under the old edmonton system

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Care to explain how Yzerman helped them win a cup in 2008 when he retired in 2006? They went to back to back Stanley cups in 2008 and 2009, only won in 2008.

I said detroit did not WIN back to back cups without a top 3 pick.

Body of evidence on my side....one exceptional well managed outlier on yours.

You can call it nitpicking but for what it is worth Yzerman isn't a Top 3 draft choice either.

Shanahan was the highest draft pick on those teams and he was acquired in part because of Detroit's only top 3 pick in a long time in Keith Primeau.

I have a lot of trouble trusting Benning to pull off a rebuild. I think you get rid of him before you sell for futures. He has to execute those trades and make the picks if you do a fire sale now. That would scare the **** out of me if I was a Canucks fan.

 

[ginner classic]

Wrong once again, its the corporate support that really lead to this.

In my opinion a true fan wants to see their team compete every year, a true fan would not cheer for the team to lose.

Lol...why don't you read it. And yes corporate support is part of a strong hockey market.

You can make any value judgements you want about what a true fan is but I suspect I've been following this team a lot longer than you.

After 36 seasons of watching I want my team to compete for a cup not aspire to being mediocre.

 

[Highkey]

Two losses in a row and the band wagoners are off... lmfao

I'm not completely happy with the so-called direction of the team, but come-on, fire sale talk B4 the 1/4 pole, get a grip.

 

[go4hockey]

Little bit of an over reaction. Canuks are fine and very well could make the playoffs in this division.

If they do they will be out round one. That roster is just not that good.

 

[spaghtti]

i think a contender should... theres the problem reguarding cap room.

if vancouver was retaining half of both contracts then as a gm of the oilers i think a return of hopkins and a first would be a fair return.

i think a couple superstar vets like sedins would really help kids like mcdavid and draisailt deal with being superstars in a fishbowl marketplace... and playing as a second line should let sedins continue to dominate

maybe edmonton would even give up more but hopkins could still blossum with a new team. i think he was a worthy pick... just struggles under the old edmonton system

Not a chance, Oilers don't need more centers, If Hopkins and a 1st get traded it is for a NEED like oh i don't know..... a PPQB RHD

 

[go4hockey]

No thanks on Miller and definitely would not give a 2nd you can keep him.

 

[nuckfan insk]

Care to explain how Yzerman helped them win a cup in 2008 when he retired in 2006? They went to back to back Stanley cups in 2008 and 2009, only won in 2008.

Yzerman was a 4th overall pick wasn't he

 

[M2Beezy]

Two losses in a row and the band wagoners are off... lmfao

I'm not completely happy with the so-called direction of the team, but come-on, fire sale talk B4 the 1/4 pole, get a grip.

Yeah maybe is a little early and a lot of people here seem to be saying that but cmon we all know whats about to happen. Implosion of a team. It will be ugly and i think the Sedins will be upset. The coach and maybe the GM fired. Young guys will get bad development. Its gonna be UGLY

Might as well blow it up and stock up on picks and let Benning do his magic on draft day

 

[dman34]

Benning fleeced FLA on the Gudbranson trade. The guy is a horse and will be a top 4 dman on the Canucks for many years to come. Jury is still out on McCann, he could quite easily amount to nothing at all and it's impossible to argue his ceiling is higher than Gudbranson's at this point in time.

I agree with going younger, but you never go full Oil, icing a decent D is imperative when trying to develop younger players.

I meant it equated in the sense that we traded 1st rounders (or the value of a 1st rounder) away for immediate help.

Guds and Grandlund are not aging veterans, but they essentially represent trading away tomorrow's higher ceiling for today's higher floor. Which isn't the direction i think we need to go in.

 

[M2Beezy]

Benning fleeced FLA on the Gudbranson trade. The guy is a horse and will be a top 4 dman on the Canucks for many years to come. Jury is still out on McCann, he could quite easily amount to nothing at all and it's impossible to argue his ceiling is higher than Gudbranson's at this point in time.

I agree with going younger, but you never go full Oil, icing a decent D is imperative when trying to develop younger players.

Gubranson has actually been ok. He stands up for his teammates unconditionally which i always saw teams like LA and Anahiem do against us and are guys do nothing so that was nice to see. Other than that he has A LOT to work on his game to be a good top 4 dman. Considering the sky potential of Mccann plus the crazy great picks we gave them no just no did Benning fleece Florida

 

[Addison Rae]

The notion that Benning "fleeced" Florida is laughable. McCann was a 1st round pick tracking very well, he clearly wasn't NHL ready yet the Canucks kept him up the entire year, if he played in junior and ripped it up his stock would have obviously been much higher on here. Gudbranson was 5th in TOI for Florida Dman last year, suggesting this guy is a top 4 dman is completely and utterly wrong and can't be backed up with any factual and objective evidence. The Canucks essentially traded two first round picks for a guy that's been in the league for 5 years and hasn't proven himself as a top 4 guy yet. Florida was able to not only pick up these assets, they used the cap space to sign two significantly better dman in Yandle and Demers.

 

[rajinikanthfan1]

So the Canucks got lucky and somehow came away with 4 wins to start the season. But now reality is taking over FAST. Time to trade some assets before theres nothing left to gain from a rebuild or a retool on the fly. IMO its time to blow this thing out of the sky and start over

Hansen to Washington for a 1st/Vrana and 5th round pick

Virtanen to Florida for a 3rd round pick and 4th round pick

Edler to Ottawa for a 1st (2017) and a 2nd in 2018

Miller to LA for a 2nd round pick

Would hate to see Hansen traded but i think it would be best for the team moving fwd. Benning is a bad GM at doing any task of a GM except drafting esp outside of top ten picks so I would LOVE to see him loaded up with picks to find guys like Lockwood Gaudette and Tater Olsen

Other suggestions would be appreciated as well as CONSTRUCUTIVE criticism with the above suggestions

its just start of season chill out dude canucks will do fine but i would be happy if they traded Markstrom i can't stand him one bit!!! everyone thought he was the next big thing in Florida and for me he is a bust and always a bust he will never be a starter in the NHL

 

[BwoyHockeyfan8]

This thread needs to be closed until 2017. But then again, i bet if it was closed, another idiot would post the same thread the next day.

 

[Street Hawk]

No. He wouldn´t be picked in the top 10 again, but he would still easily go top 20 in an re-draft as I see it.
If he doesn´t take another step you basically have an Jack Skille-worth player on your team. An okay 3rd liner or an great 4th liner who can fill in on the top lines for part of the season. And that´s worth aaaaaloooot more than an 3rd+4th. You can strike gold in those rounds for sure, but the odds are higher that an player selected there won´t play the amount of games Virtanen already have than they will.
I´m not an Canuck fan, but any reasonable offer for Virtanen at this time and place starts with an 2nd with an + after it. On the other side, that´s probably worth the gamble to only a few team if any at all. At this stage of time an prospect as Virtanen is really most worth to Canucks to hold on to and try to develop to get most worth of.



This is an good response. Count me in as one that at the time of the draft saw Nylander as an perfect fit for the Canucks. And for that mather, Islanders at 5th. But Canucks especially lacked that high-offensive-reward-forward-prospect and should have gambled as I see it. Skillwise Nylander was by most seen as at least top 5 of the class. To me he was the BPA from 5th and down. But then I always prefered to draft skill and vision before physical talented players and "intangibles".

But to also remember is that both Virtanen and Nylander went where most scouts and experts had them. Both where all over the place if you asked different experts, both from as high as 5 to as low as early 10:s. Most had Virtanen higher than Nylander.

I would imagine being in the Pacific with the big heavy teams in California contributed to the decision to draft Jake. Those teams not only have size, but their top players have size.

Carter, kopitar, Perry, getzlaf, etc. Have it.

I would expect that Nylander would have some tough nights if he were a Canuck. That said, I hate how the team has managed both Jake and Jared last season.

Neither was ready for the nhl, yet both were kept. McCann, despite scoring goals in the preseason would not hold up physically in the division. Jake, needs work on his hockey sense. He is a support player. He needs a talented center.

Either send Jake down to the AHL to get big minutes in an offensive role or do what the ducks did with Ritchie and stick him with so.e skill and not just the 4th line. Attach him to either Bo or Sutter for a stretch of games.

Canucks have Boeser as the future too rw. They need to develop Jake into a solid 20-20 guy. Don't see his hockey iq being able to hit 30 goals consistently, but he needs to build his confidence one way or another.

Same with tryamkin. Either start to play him or let him go back to he khl. No point to keep him in the press box. He won't go to the AHL, which is his right given the clause in his contract.

 

[Nucker101]

You're worse than Connor McHindu(who I'm convinced is Benning's HF account).

 

[bossram]

Gubranson has actually been ok. He stands up for his teammates unconditionally which i always saw teams like LA and Anahiem do against us and are guys do nothing so that was nice to see. Other than that he has A LOT to work on his game to be a good top 4 dman. Considering the sky potential of Mccann plus the crazy great picks we gave them no just no did Benning fleece Florida

I didn't see Gudbranson do anything particularly notable against LA and Anaheim. And they played us physically. Gudbranson didn't really make an impact in that regard.

He's been alright with Hutton so far. I think I was too down on him at the time of the trade. But I'm still against the deal overall. Value was bad, and overall direction of the team is wrong, as I mention below.

Once again agree to disagree. I have said Benning has traded away too many picks and no every deal did not work out, but many have so far, Baertchi, Sutter, Gudbranson, Granlund, all players that are young and contributing to this team being competitive now and raising our young players like Horvat, Virtanen, Boeser (when he is done with ND state), Juolevi (when he comes to the big club) in a competitive environment sounds better then selling our best players and betting on a lottery pick, which worked so well for Edmonton, Carolina, Columbus etc.

The team needs a rebuild, straight up. We need to accumulate picks and prospects, not trade them for "meh" players. Guys like Gud and Sutter are fine in their own right. Perfectly useful players. But if you want to be contender, you absolutely cannot invest such a large amount of your assets (cap space, acquisition costs) in complementary players. Teams win Cups with high-end talent at the top, and cheap, quality depth filling in. Gud and Sutter simply cost way too much for what they provide. They are ultimately replaceable pieces.

We need the high-end talent. It's not there. The most likely place to find it is at the draft. You can cite the Edmonton's of the world. But then there's the Chicago's and LAs. This management group is not competent enough to find top-end talent outside the draft and continually overpay marginal players.