Post-Game Talk: Canucks def. Blackhawks - 5-2 (Kuzmenko x2, Joshua, Dries, Horvat)

[Frankie Blueberries]

I can't take you seriously when you say Petey isn't a franchise game breaker like Bedard is when the kid hasn't played a single NHL game.

Boeser's extension was a bad move? It's about a million too high but he had a very large QO I believe. Most people said the extension was a good contract at the time. Hindsight 20/20 since he's been bad this year. It wasn't a bad extension - the player is just playing poorly right now.

Those aren't the same things. Given the information they had at the time, the Boeser extension was more than fine.

We can make an avatar bet on Bedard/Pettersson if you’d like? I’d happily bet that Bedard puts up better numbers in his first 5 seasons than Pettersson does. Or whatever benchmark you might suggest.

Lol so now you have put forth the arguments “wait and see” and now “hindsight” for the Boeser extension. This feels like deja vu with Benning supporters

 

[PuckMunchkin]

We can make an avatar bet on Bedard/Pettersson if you’d like? I’d happily bet that Bedard puts up better numbers in his first 5 seasons than Pettersson does. Or whatever benchmark you might suggest.

Lol so now you have put forth the arguments “wait and see” and now “hindsight” for the Boeser extension. This feels like deja vu with Benning supporters

Im currently eating crow on my take on the Boeser contract.

 

[Gurn]

Im currently eat crow on my take for the Boeser contract.

I was ok with re-signing Brock, but I thought they were going with the 1 yr qualifier.
3 yrs, even at reduced money was just wrong.

In an alternate reality Ollie and Brock did not get injured, and make a big difference in the team's success.

 

[JohnHodgson]

We can make an avatar bet on Bedard/Pettersson if you’d like? I’d happily bet that Bedard puts up better numbers in his first 5 seasons than Pettersson does. Or whatever benchmark you might suggest.

Lol so now you have put forth the arguments “wait and see” and now “hindsight” for the Boeser extension. This feels like deja vu with Benning supporters

Boeser was coming off a down year and a high QO but he had 49 points in 56 games the year before and was our leading scorer?? 45 points in 56 games the year before that. That's about a 70 point pace.

Is 6.6M on a 3 year deal a massive overpayment for someone who was one of our most consistent forwards pacing for 60+ points? Dude's game absolutely fell off a cliff this year.

How were we supposed to predict that?

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Boeser was coming off a down year and a high QO but he had 49 points in 56 games the year before and was our leading scorer?? 45 points in 56 games the year before that. That's about a 70 point pace.

Is 6.6M on a 3 year deal a massive overpayment for someone who was one of our most consistent forwards pacing for 60+ points? Dude's game absolutely fell off a cliff this year.

How were we supposed to predict that?

You’re focusing on the wrong things and neglecting his injury history, what he brings to the table when he isn’t producing (basically nothing; he’s not good defensively, is slow, and doesn’t battle hard), and what his cap hit could have provided if spent on other players.

 

[JohnHodgson]

You’re focusing on the wrong things and neglecting his injury history, what he brings to the table when he isn’t producing (basically nothing; he’s not good defensively, is slow, and doesn’t battle hard), and what his cap hit could have provided if spent on other players.

But he was producing? He had 49 points in 56 games, a pace of 72 points. Lead the team in points and goals at age 23.

I think they should have traded Boeser too but I was fine with the extension. Calling it a massive mistake is literally hindsight 20/20.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

But he was producing? He had 49 points in 56 games, a pace of 72 points. Lead the team in points and goals at age 23.

I think they should have traded Boeser too but I was fine with the extension. Calling it a massive mistake is literally hindsight 20/20.

It clearly was a mistake and the term involved did not require hindsight to see issues with.

So how about the avatar bet on Bedard v Pettersson production?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It clearly was a mistake and the term involved did not require hindsight to see issues with.

So how about the avatar bet on Bedard v Pettersson production?

Godspeed

 

[JohnHodgson]

It clearly was a mistake and the term involved did not require hindsight to see issues with.

So how about the avatar bet on Bedard v Pettersson production?

This is the NHL, not the NBA or NFL lol.

No one player can single-handedly turn a franchise around.

You reference McDavid but he's only been further than Petey in the playoffs a little bit. McDavid has one conference finals appearance in 7 years.

Your logic is broken. You don't need a McDavid tier player to win a cup.

I don't need to make any bets. Bedard is going to be a very good player, but why are you name dropping someone that hasn't played a game in the NHL? That logic makes no sense to me but you do you.

 

[m9]

How were we supposed to predict that?

Watching Boeser play?

 

[JohnHodgson]

Watching Boeser play?

Did you watch him play in 2020-2021?

Where he had 23 goals, 49 points in 56 games as our leading goal scorer and point getter? At the age of 23?

 

[m9]

Did you watch him play in 2020-2021?

Where he had 23 goals, 49 points in 56 games as our leading goal scorer and point getter? At the age of 23?

Yes, I've watched him play. That's why it was predictable this was a bad contract.

Here is my post in the signing thread the day he was signed:

First Allvin move I've really been against, but they were in a tough spot with the qualifying offer.

I think Boeser is overpaid here by a fair bit as I wouldn't really be looking to pay complementary wingers like him more than 5 million per year.

Wonder what the offers were for him, may have been a missed opportunity.

Seems like I'm in the minority here but I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong as Brock seems like a great guy who has been through alot. I hope he crushes it for 3 years and signs a massive deal and people can laugh at this post being so wrong.

Like I said then, this is a complementary winger that you max out at 5 million.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Yes, I've watched him play. That's why it was predictable this was a bad contract.

Here is my post in the signing thread the day he was signed:



Like I said then, this is a complementary winger that you max out at 5 million.

It’s worth pointing out that you’re arguing with someone who is trotting out identical arguments used to defend Benning (wait and see, hindsight).

 

[quat]

That's hilarious.

Nobody in BC thinks that everything is fine.

All I'm saying is that there is a pathway success - a lot just needs to go right.

But go ahead and doom and gloom and cry.

"If we win the lottery everything will be fine!"

"I don't think it makes good financial sense to plan on winning the lottery to solve your problems"

"go ahead and doom and gloom and cry"

 

[NYVanfan]

No to Dumba. He’s old and a ufa this summer, not the answer. Doing BB straight up would be bad for us as we’re just giving him away for nothing, and bad for them, they cant absorb the cap, doesnt work.

What about Horvat for Schneider, Trochek, pick?
I think VT hasnt been ideal for them since signing, at $5.625 long term would be a gamble for us — turns 30 and has 5 more years, but think of him a Bo minus $3M. He could work in a EP-JT-VT platoon at center. Schneider is obviously the key, and i gather theyve been loathe to give him up.

 

[Vector]

Like I said then, this is a complementary winger that you max out at 5 million.

Also seems to be, if the rumours are true, what the rest of the league currently values him at.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

No to Dumba. He’s old and a ufa this summer, not the answer. Doing BB straight up would be bad for us as we’re just giving him away for nothing, and bad for them, they cant absorb the cap, doesnt work.

What about Horvat for Schneider, Trochek, pick?
I think VT hasnt been ideal for them since signing, at $5.625 long term would be a gamble for us — turns 30 and has 5 more years, but think of him a Bo minus $3M. He could work in a EP-JT-VT platoon at center. Schneider is obviously the key, and i gather theyve been loathe to give him up.

Agreed on Dumba..precisely the player we dont need.

 

[Canucker]

No to Dumba. He’s old and a ufa this summer, not the answer. Doing BB straight up would be bad for us as we’re just giving him away for nothing, and bad for them, they cant absorb the cap, doesnt work.

What about Horvat for Schneider, Trochek, pick?
I think VT hasnt been ideal for them since signing, at $5.625 long term would be a gamble for us — turns 30 and has 5 more years, but think of him a Bo minus $3M. He could work in a EP-JT-VT platoon at center. Schneider is obviously the key, and i gather theyve been loathe to give him up.

Dumba for Boeser, I'd do it in a heartbeat...I'd then trade Dumba to a team and retain money for a useable asset in return...but because Minny would have a tough time taking Boeser's cap hit, its unlikely to happen.

I don't think Trochek waives from a strong playoff team to come to this mess...not that I really want him anyways, he'd be a guy who would need to be flipped to another playoff team for bits, but that would even be limited due to his contract.

 

[m9]

Also seems to be, if the rumours are true, what the rest of the league currently values him at.

Yup.

And it makes sense. Tyler Toffoli came in and was basically the same player if not better than Boeser when he was air-dropped into his role the Covid year. Garland was better than him last year in a similar role on the same team. Mikheyev better than him in a top six role this year. These are 4-5 million dollar players.

Kuzmenko comes in and is far better than him in the exact same role. Sounds like he'll sign for 6-ish.

Honestly I think the 5 million part is generous at this point. I'm wondering if we are having a bunch of teams "show interest" with retention and then come watch him and realize you've got a 6.65 million dollar slug who is probably worth half that.

 

[VanJack]

Looked to me like half the GM's in the league were at Rogers Arena last night.....They must have gotten an eye-full watching Horvat and Kuzmenko last night.

Adding one of these guys would be a game-changer, but adding both might be the difference between an early playoff exit and the conference finals.

Just too bad that the guys being dangled at the TDL by the Canucks aren't Miller and Boeser, rather than two of the best offensive weapons they have.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Yes, I've watched him play. That's why it was predictable this was a bad contract.

Here is my post in the signing thread the day he was signed:



Like I said then, this is a complementary winger that you max out at 5 million.

I agree with what you're saying. I actually wanted him traded and not re-signed.

However, the QO depressed his trade value and gave him HUGE leverage in contract negotiations.

Jim Benning left us in a massive hole. The Boeser QO was another one of his good bye gifts.

His trade value was depressed because of his QO, flat cap and was coming off a down year. It was either lose him for nothing (fans would have went crazy), trade him for a very depressed return, re-sign him to a reasonable bridge deal. He's a little over million overpaid... it's not really the end of the world here.

I would hardly quantify this as a 'mistake' - there were not many good options on the table. In hindsight, this team probably would have been further ahead if they just let him go to Free Agency, but fans would have tore this management team a new one if they just let go of an asset like Brock.

The true mistake was not trading Boeser at his peak value 3 years ago - we would have had a great haul if we traded him after 2020 or the 2021 season. That's on JB's management group, not JR.

 

[m9]

I agree with what you're saying. I actually wanted him traded and not re-signed.

However, the QO depressed his trade value and gave him HUGE leverage in contract negotiations.

Jim Benning left us in a massive hole. The Boeser QO was another one of his good bye gifts.

His trade value was depressed because of his QO, flat cap and was coming off a down year. It was either lose him for nothing (fans would have went crazy), trade him for a very depressed return, re-sign him to a reasonable bridge deal. He's a little over million overpaid... it's not really the end of the world here.

I would hardly quantify this as a 'mistake' - there were not many good options on the table. In hindsight, this team probably would have been further ahead if they just let him go to Free Agency, but fans would have tore this management team a new one if they just let go of an asset like Brock.

The true mistake was not trading Boeser at his peak value 3 years ago - we would have had a great haul if we traded him after 2020 or the 2021 season. That's on JB's management group, not JR.

Okay, but you're changing what you are saying.

You are calling it "hindsight" that this contract was a mistake and I am saying it is not. And I disagree with you here when you "hardly quantify this as a mistake". I agree there were not good options, and they picked the worst one. They made a mistake signing Boeser to a 3 year contract and that is a fact.

You are saying "who could have predicted this?" and I am saying that someone watching the games could have seen that other players were playing better than him at a lower salary and it could be predicted. The local infatuation with this player was based on emotional reasons and not their efficiency at the job. Hmm, sounds familiar to a certain coach. Management needs to be smarter than the fans and not get caught up in the emotional part.

 

[racerjoe]

I can't believe I am about to say this, as I think the contract we gave him (to me it was hindsight, others it was not) was bad. However I think some are under selling Brocks ability a little bit here.

Despite the fact we don't get to see it that much I still think Brock can shoot the puck. He is rightly a complimentary top 6 winger. Our problem is we don't have the people to compliment him, and thats what he need to maximize his value. Don't get this too wrong its not a good thing to have a player that needs certain things to succeed, but when he has them i think he can still be a very good top 6 option.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I can't believe I am about to say this, as I think the contract we gave him (to me it was hindsight, others it was not) was bad. However I think some are under selling Brocks ability a little bit here.

Despite the fact we don't get to see it that much I still think Brock can shoot the puck. He is rightly a complimentary top 6 winger. Our problem is we don't have the people to compliment him, and thats what he need to maximize his value. Don't get this too wrong its not a good thing to have a player that needs certain things to succeed, but when he has them i think he can still be a very good top 6 option.

Agreed. That kind of player is however expendable which I'm sure we both can agree on, but he needs to get his spot back on PP1 as well to get his looks. In the past year, what's his role even been on that? He basically just fetches pucks to give to anyone that's not himself immediately. That entire PP has been run thru the same 4 guys (Miller, Horvat, Hughes, and Petey)...and Kuzmenko's supplanted him because he's better at facilitating that role to set up the same 3 scripted plays we always try and use to score.

Like, no wonder his value is at an all-time low. He's been misused for sure. Part of that is he's an extraneous player with a redundant skill set to the team. He has a role in this league where he can be successful just...not on this team.

 

[racerjoe]

Agreed. That kind of player is however expendable which I'm sure we both can agree on, but he needs to get his spot back on PP1 as well to get his looks. In the past year, what's his role even been on that? He basically just fetches pucks to give to anyone that's not himself immediately. That entire PP has been run thru the same 4 guys (Miller, Horvat, Hughes, and Petey)...and Kuzmenko's supplanted him because he's better at facilitating that role to set up the same 3 scripted plays we always try and use to score.

Like, no wonder his value is at an all-time low. He's been misused for sure. Part of that is he's an extraneous player with a redundant skill set to the team. He has a role in this league where he can be successful just...not on this team.

Hit the nail on the head especially the PP bit. Would be nice for the short term to flip Miller and Boeser to see if you can get his value up. Or maybe after Bo goes you shift Miller to his spot to move Brock to the half wall?