Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[Deuce22]

The thing is few people are claiming that these folks should be convicted of rape and sentenced immediately on only the facts that have been made available to the public. That's largely a straw man.

I think a lot of people have decided that they believe the victim and they have some conviction that these players, whoever they may be, sexually assaulted her. I don't mean in the criminal, BARD sense. I mean in the sense of what they as individuals think about this situation.

That's OK. People having conviction about stuff like this is what promotes awareness and, ultimately, change. Another poster up top has done a great job of pointing out that current Canadian sexual assault laws are pretty messed up and biased towards the offender. If we accept that no judgement can be passed and nothing can be done until a justice system that is purposefully designed to do nothing about something like this does something then how can anything be accomplished?

Fair enough. Believing the victim/accuser is fine, I understand that sentiment. Belittling others who choose to wait for more information to come out before making a decision isn't, IMO. You are correct about the justice system being slanted towards those in the power position. That is what needs to change, less enabling from the populace and more push back when that power is misused.

 

[pcruz]

Schrodinger's lawyer. Please don't open the box lest you disbar me!

Again, we're not in court. Definitely do not use anything I say here in a criminal trial.

This is not legal advice my friend.

Schrodinger's lawyer.

Yes. Precisely.

The lady who was most likely victimized in this situation is Schrodinger's rape victim.
Until we "open the box" and start to dig into the actual events, she is simultaneously being completely honest and not.

What's being missed here, is the manner with which we don't do enough as a society to curb this kind of thing from happening.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Specifically which players?

We have pages and pages of players' names and accusations of them being rapists.

We don't even know who the players are, and yet we have a crowd of people ready and willing to sewer anyone they believe may have been a culprit.

You're a lawyer and therefore must see the danger in perpetuating that kind of vigilante justice.

No we don't. We have people discussing allegations of rape or sexual abuse. I haven't seen someone post "Player x is a rapist and belongs in jail".

 

[Mingus Dew]

Specifically which players?

We have pages and pages of players' names and accusations of them being rapists.

We don't even know who the players are, and yet we have a crowd of people ready and willing to sewer anyone they believe may have been a culprit.

You're a lawyer and therefore must see the danger in perpetuating that kind of vigilante justice.

What vigilante justice though? Professional hockey players are being accused of things on social media. No one is taking matters into their own hands and grabbing shotguns here.

I believe the victim as I said. I'm not in here calling X player a rapist. I have some suspicions based on statements that have come forward and the like but no firm convictions.

I think that whomever engaged in these acts with the victim committed sexual assault. We have a pool of players but the exact subset has not been identified. That's where I'm at.

 

[pcruz]

• Today at 2:50 PM

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• #347

How can someone even have the desire to do that? 12? That's not a woman, that's not a girl, that's a kid! Pure evil.

*Edited to add: Just read the main forum 1st page.. This is like the 5th or so sex crime RIGHT NOW. Dear God this world is so f**'d unless something changes fast. I really think porn has turned the world into perverts IMHO. Have conversations with your daughters young. I'd like to think I can raise mine in a world where I can teach her not all men are predators, but news like this sure makes it seem that way.

It gets tiring and frustrating hearing about all these sexual assaults. The sport is great, but my god there's so many scumbags involved in it. Hopefully there's a major shift in the culture of hockey and actual consequences handed out to people that not only commit these acts but enable them to happen as well.

Because as it turns out, having that much fame, money and material possession can cause the wrong kind of person to think they are above the rules of society. In the minds of these people being well known and wealthy entitles them to sex from whoever they want regardless of consent.

If you speak to psychologists, they will explain that in many cases, sex is directly linked to power.
The feeling of having power over someone.

It's a sick thing, but there are many many sick people all over the spectrum of humanity: poor, rich, young, old, male, female, all over the world.

It's one of the reasons why you see this kind of thing happen so often when there is a discrepancy in (perceived or real) power between individuals -
coaches : pupils;
boss : employee;
religious leader : kids helping in the church/synagogue/temple/etc;
politician : intern;
entertainment producer : aspiring entertainer;
modeling agent : aspiring model.

I've never been involved with anything that had this kind of crap happen around me (thank God), but I was also always taught to never feel inferior to anyone else in hopes that I was never put in a position of perceived power discrepancy.
To this day, I'll see the value in the person way before I even contemplate the supposed "power" of that person.

It's a societal problem and is not strictly a hockey problem.
However, because there is a massive power difference between the young aspiring player, to the coaches who can determine their future, developmental sports are definitely going to be rife with this shit.

How do we curb this kind of crap?

Well, having less private interactions between people of substantially different power values (coaches to young players) would be one thing to do.
Teaching our kids to have the self-confidence and self-worth to not only push back against such advances, but to instantly report them even if the act was rebuffed successfully; without any fear for repercussions.
Stronger laws and empowered investigative bodies to catch these people early after any actions that are in any way inappropriate.
Stronger screening and psychological evaluation of people who are granted positions of power - this should be absolutely bare minimum for all politicians, law enforcement, teachers, coaches, agents, etc.

 

[PostBradMalone]

Fair enough. Believing the victim/accuser is fine, I understand that sentiment. Belittling others who choose to wait for more information to come out before making a decision isn't, IMO.

It really depends on whether those people are acting in good faith or not. I mean, just take a quick read of the Virtanen trainwre- I mean thread. The accused is quite literally having his day in court, his counsel has one opportunity to present ALL possible evidence that he's innocent but have not managed to move the needle at all... and you still have certain folks in that thread squawking "wAiT fOr aLl tHe fActs sHeEplE".

If being tried in an actual court of law isn't enough, what ever will be?

 

[CanHeDoIt99]

Specifically which players?

We have pages and pages of players' names and accusations of them being rapists.

We don't even know who the players are, and yet we have a crowd of people ready and willing to sewer anyone they believe may have been a culprit.

You're a lawyer and therefore must see the danger in perpetuating that kind of vigilante justice.

It doesn't look like to me that we have pages and pages of players names being directly called a rapist frankly.

Do you know who has accused the perpetrators of sexual assault? The victim.

Sure - not under oath (something you seem hung up on in this thread) - but she is accusing them of that as well. I believe her.

 

[My3Sons]

In that case, we can all assume you don’t work in law enforcement and don’t have a valid legal opinion

No, we can all assume that someone is apparently Schroedinger's counsel?

 

[Mingus Dew]

Schrodinger's lawyer.

Yes. Precisely.

The lady who was most likely victimized in this situation is Schrodinger's rape victim.
Until we "open the box" and start to dig into the actual events, she is simultaneously being completely honest and not.

What's being missed here, is the manner with which we don't do enough as a society to curb this kind of thing from happening.

More of a tongue in cheek comment.

I agree, we need to do more. Part of that is enabling victims to come forward and accuse their rapists. And part of that goes to the views that we all hold about credibility, sex and the law.

 

[Deuce22]

It really depends on whether those people are acting in good faith or not. I mean, just take a quick read of the Virtanen trainwre- I mean thread. The accused is quite literally having his day in court, his counsel has one opportunity to present ALL possible evidence that he's innocent but have not managed to move the needle at all... and you still have certain folks in that thread squawking "wAiT fOr aLl tHe fActs sHeEplE".

If being tried in an actual court of law isn't enough, what ever will be?

No doubt to your first sentence. I haven't read any of the Virtanen thread, so not able to react to that. People are people, we all come in with bias. How much we are able to suppress the bias in order to see things clearly is what I would call "good faith."

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

• Today at 2:50 PM
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• #347

If you speak to psychologists, they will explain that in many cases, sex is directly linked to power.
The feeling of having power over someone.

It's a sick thing, but there are many many sick people all over the spectrum of humanity: poor, rich, young, old, male, female, all over the world.

It's one of the reasons why you see this kind of thing happen so often when there is a discrepancy in (perceived or real) power between individuals -
coaches : pupils;
boss : employee;
religious leader : kids helping in the church/synagogue/temple/etc;
politician : intern;
entertainment producer : aspiring entertainer;
modeling agent : aspiring model.

I've never been involved with anything that had this kind of crap happen around me (thank God), but I was also always taught to never feel inferior to anyone else in hopes that I was never put in a position of perceived power discrepancy.
To this day, I'll see the value in the person way before I even contemplate the supposed "power" of that person.

It's a societal problem and is not strictly a hockey problem.
However, because there is a massive power difference between the young aspiring player, to the coaches who can determine their future, developmental sports are definitely going to be rife with this shit.

How do we curb this kind of crap?

Well, having less private interactions between people of substantially different power values (coaches to young players) would be one thing to do.
Teaching our kids to have the self-confidence and self-worth to not only push back against such advances, but to instantly report them even if the act was rebuffed successfully; without any fear for repercussions.
Stronger laws and empowered investigative bodies to catch these people early after any actions that are in any way inappropriate.
Stronger screening and psychological evaluation of people who are granted positions of power - this should be absolutely bare minimum for all politicians, law enforcement, teachers, coaches, agents, etc.

Talking about it with kids much earlier in their lives would be the first, and best, thing to do. And I don't mean "glossing" over things in general terms. I mean an ongoing conversation between kids, parents and teachers, about consent, power dynamics, desire, regret, etc. Everything. It shouldn't be taboo.

The average age for boys to begin watching porn is 11. 11! And as they get older and move into their teen years, they start watching videos that skew more violent, and show women enjoying those scenarios, which are readily available.

I wonder how many parents have sat down with their 12 year old hockey players and talked about this case in detail? My guess is not very many. But I bet they'll all tune into the WJC in August.

Personally, I think the problem is only going to get worse.

 

[pcruz]

What vigilante justice though? Professional hockey players are being accused of things on social media. No one is taking matters into their own hands and grabbing shotguns here.

I believe the victim as I said. I'm not in here calling X player a rapist. I have some suspicions based on statements that have come forward and the like but no firm convictions.

I think that whomever engaged in these acts with the victim committed sexual assault. We have a pool of players but the exact subset has not been identified. That's where I'm at.

Making lists of the players who are suspected of being the ones involved and then associating them with being rapists.

That's an injury to the person(s) who were actually innocent and yet associated with the perpetrators.


I'll give you my personal, non-professional, view on these matters:

I'm always more inclined to believe that the person who had the courage to come forward with such claims, is much more likely to have actually been a victim, than a liar.

What I'm not ever prepared to do, is to throw anyone under the bus based on what my initial and uneducated feelings are of a criminal case. I'd definitely not inclined to mete out justice and to label someone as a criminal without so much as knowing who the person's identity is.

 

[CanHeDoIt99]

Making lists of the players who are suspected of being the ones involved and then associating them with being rapists.

That's an injury to the person(s) who were actually innocent and yet associated with the perpetrators.


I'll give you my personal, non-professional, view on these matters:

I'm always more inclined to believe that the person who had the courage to come forward with such claims, is much more likely to have actually been a victim, than a liar.

What I'm not ever prepared to do, is to throw anyone under the bus based on what my initial and uneducated feelings are of a criminal case. I'd definitely not inclined to mete out justice and to label someone as a criminal without so much as knowing who the person's identity is.

You have much more faith in the criminal justice system than others if you completely rely on the results of (or lack thereof) convictions to associate with whether or not you believe something occured.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Making lists of the players who are suspected of being the ones involved and then associating them with being rapists.

That's an injury to the person(s) who were actually innocent and yet associated with the perpetrators.


I'll give you my personal, non-professional, view on these matters:

I'm always more inclined to believe that the person who had the courage to come forward with such claims, is much more likely to have actually been a victim, than a liar.

What I'm not ever prepared to do, is to throw anyone under the bus based on what my initial and uneducated feelings are of a criminal case. I'd definitely not inclined to mete out justice and to label someone as a criminal without so much as knowing who the person's identity is.

Who are you even arguing against here?

No one has called for the NHL to ban player X.

 

[pcruz]

You have much more faith in the criminal justice system than others if you completely rely on the results of (or lack thereof) convictions to associate with whether or not you believe something occured.

No, only before labeling and punishing people as criminals and attaching the stigma to them.

One that never truly goes away even after exoneration.

 

[CanHeDoIt99]

No, only before labeling and punishing people as criminals and attaching the stigma to them.

One that never truly goes away even after exoneration.

Cool, so you don't believe the victim. That is your choice.

There is a reason why when juries find defendants not guilty they don't say "innocent".

 

[Transplanted Caper]

No, only before labeling and punishing people as criminals and attaching the stigma to them.

One that never truly goes away even after exoneration.

It's gone away for plenty of people.

 

[pcruz]

Cool, so you don't believe the victim. That is your choice.

There is a reason why when juries find defendants not guilty they don't say "innocent".

I know reading is hard to do through a pre-concieved bias, but:

I'm always more inclined to believe that the person who had the courage to come forward with such claims, is much more likely to have actually been a victim, than a liar.
What I'm not ever prepared to do, is to throw anyone under the bus based on what my initial and uneducated feelings are of a criminal case. I'd definitely not inclined to mete out justice and to label someone as a criminal without so much as knowing who the person's identity is.


I copied that from a previous post. Spelling error and all.

 

[CanHeDoIt99]

I know reading is hard to do through a pre-concieved bias, but:

I'm always more inclined to believe that the person who had the courage to come forward with such claims, is much more likely to have actually been a victim, than a liar.
What I'm not ever prepared to do, is to throw anyone under the bus based on what my initial and uneducated feelings are of a criminal case. I'd definitely not inclined to mete out justice and to label someone as a criminal without so much as knowing who the person's identity is.


I copied that from a previous post. Spelling error and all.

So you're talking out of both sides of your mouth then.

You are inclined to believe the victim when she says they sexually assaulted her.

But you are not willing to say you believe the players who were involved are abusers because you only think you can say that if they're criminally convicted.

Do you realize how silly that sounds?

 

[Washed Up 29YearOld]

• Today at 2:50 PM
• Add bookmark
• #347

If you speak to psychologists, they will explain that in many cases, sex is directly linked to power.
The feeling of having power over someone.

It's a sick thing, but there are many many sick people all over the spectrum of humanity: poor, rich, young, old, male, female, all over the world.

It's one of the reasons why you see this kind of thing happen so often when there is a discrepancy in (perceived or real) power between individuals -
coaches : pupils;
boss : employee;
religious leader : kids helping in the church/synagogue/temple/etc;
politician : intern;
entertainment producer : aspiring entertainer;
modeling agent : aspiring model.

I've never been involved with anything that had this kind of crap happen around me (thank God), but I was also always taught to never feel inferior to anyone else in hopes that I was never put in a position of perceived power discrepancy.
To this day, I'll see the value in the person way before I even contemplate the supposed "power" of that person.

It's a societal problem and is not strictly a hockey problem.
However, because there is a massive power difference between the young aspiring player, to the coaches who can determine their future, developmental sports are definitely going to be rife with this shit.

How do we curb this kind of crap?

Well, having less private interactions between people of substantially different power values (coaches to young players) would be one thing to do.
Teaching our kids to have the self-confidence and self-worth to not only push back against such advances, but to instantly report them even if the act was rebuffed successfully; without any fear for repercussions.
Stronger laws and empowered investigative bodies to catch these people early after any actions that are in any way inappropriate.
Stronger screening and psychological evaluation of people who are granted positions of power - this should be absolutely bare minimum for all politicians, law enforcement, teachers, coaches, agents, etc.

Great post agree 100%. Liked- hope ya have a good day my man. You've legitimately provoked thought and added insight. It's not so much 'attraction' it's power.

 

[SensHulk]

It's gone away for plenty of people.

Disturbing how much teammates want to share in sexual experiences together…hockey culture is FUBAR

 

[PostBradMalone]

Nothing from Batherson, Formenton, or McLeod yet today eh? Very puzzling none of them have said a word.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Nothing from Batherson, Formenton, or McLeod yet today eh? Very puzzling none of them have said a word.

Yeah. Denying it doesn't mean you weren't involved, but refusing to even acknowledge it this far into the process is a major red flag.

And if they come out of this innocent, it doesn't mean the suspicions weren't valid.

 

[wetcoast]

Let's just get to the bottom of this - do you believe the victim? and if not, what would it take?

This is where I'm at with the information at hand and maybe I haven't read it all yet.

I do believe that the victim was and still is traumatized form the event.

I have no idea if she was raped (ie if she agreed to testify that there would criminal charges and there would be a likelihood of conviction) or if she even thinks that.

She didn't want to take up the matter originally with either the 3rd party investigator from Hockey Canada or the London police but later (this year in April she brought a civil claim) she made a statement that she didn't consent and there also appears to be text messages that might question that but none of us have enough information to know enough about the circumstances.

Lawyers for players linked to alleged sexual assault to give NHL videos, text messages | TSN

As the NHL pursues its investigation into an alleged 2018 sexual assault involving eight former Canadian Hockey League players, lawyers for the players plan to turn over to the league two videos filmed with a cellphone during and after the incident, as well as 35 text messages sent between the...

www.tsn.ca

The 2 reports that have been cited and I read (the initial investigation and the tweets from the players indicated that her parents were the ones pushing for her to take it to the authorities.

Most likely she might have been reluctant for some of the reasons given by some here but the tweets (and incomplete information to be sure) also indicate that perhaps she didn't really want to pursue it at the time and at a later time she obviously changed her mind.

What I do know is that she made a claim against HC and not the 8 players involved and both parties agreed to settle the matter out of court.

What I don't know is more than I or you or anyone else in this thread knows but what I do know is that everyone should be working to reduce the numbers of these incidents period as money or even a conviction probably won't help her, only therapy will at this point.

Maybe more information about the case will come out but until then that's what I know and like I said I don't have enough to make a judgment that the players involved are rapists in the criminal code sense and I don't think anyone has enough information to judge that yet.

As a side not I heard one of Graham James victims who is now a lawyer on CKNW on the afternoon show and he had a very interesting perspective on HC's special fund that some might find surprising.

He thought it was a good thing that they had the fund but also thought they had mishandled it as well.

He also thought that if every case such as this were to come out it would be a daily event for a very long time which should and does trouble all of us I'm sure.

Audio on Demand

How to Listen To use the 980 CKNW AM Audio Vault, select the date and hour that you wish to listen to. Once you’ve selected the specific date and time you wish to hear, please be advised it may take 30 seconds for the file to buffer the audio before it starts to play.

globalnews.ca

The time was after the 12 noon news and ended around 1220ish.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

It doesn't matter if people believe her or not.

It only matters whether the perpetrators (who are still, 4 years later, not known) can be proven beyond a doubt to have committed the crime.

That's only the standard for a guilty verdict in a court of law, not the court of public opinion.

Or a civil court, for that matter.

Unless you want to explain why we can't express opinions like "OJ Simpson is a murderer."