Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[MXD]

Every person in Canada, not just hockey players, has the right to privacy unless they've been actually charged with the crime. We don't publish names of accused individuals unless the accusations lead to charges. That shouldn't change.

Not every person in Canada benefits from a publically-funded organization giving hush money to the victim of their crimes.

 

[DaveMatthew]

For example, if I was in the hotel that night and knew the 8 players, would I be bound not to name them? If so, and I did anyway, who would punish me and in what way? Is it different if I put it on Twitter or talk about it at work?

If your employer went to the media and said "this person was involved in a gang rape so we fired them" but you were not actually charged with any such crime, you could sue your employer.

And speculating on social media from your own Twitter account is completely different. I can go online and say, "Based on what we know, it seems like Alex Formenton was probably there. If he's on the team, I'm not going to watch." I won't face any consequences.

That's completely different from Hockey Canada releasing the names of these players.

 

[PostBradMalone]

Every person in Canada, not just hockey players, has the right to privacy unless they've been actually charged with the crime. We don't publish names of accused individuals unless the accusations lead to charges. That shouldn't change.

This absolutely isn't true. I can go to any newspaper tomorrow and tell them my story about Player A or Politician Y sexually assaulting me and there isn't a mechanism within the Criminal Code or Charter that would prevent it. Civil law is a completely different matter- that newspaper better perform due diligence on my claims, for one- but that's far afield from saying the victim in this case can't publicly name those involved.

The settlement was done to provide a resolution for the complainant. Hockey Canada did not proactively pay off the woman. She filed a complaint against Hockey Canada, and she was able to obtain a resolution/settlement that she accepted as appropriate.

She deemed it "appropriate" in the face of a hostile investigation by the organization that was supposed to be working to prevent a future occurrence of this kind of thing. There's a pretty clear chain of events here: complainant goes to HC and the London Police, the key player tries to intimidate her into silence over text message, then HC lawyers up with an attack dog known for running down rape victims. The victim then settles over having her life ruined.

In that light, and in light of HC dropping the matter completely for four years after, I don't know how a reasonable person can look at this as anything other than a payoff.

Hockey Canada did the right thing in working with the complainant's lawyers to settle the case.

How can we be sure they did the "right thing" when you admit they didn't bother to expand their purview beyond "Welp, sounds like a likely story, here's some money"?

 

[wetcoast]

Because they didn't do much of anything to investigate the players involved on their own. They allowed players to not cooperate with their own internal investigation and didn't level any sanctions whatsoever.

It's now up in the air if HC knows what players were involved; either they know and did nothing or they didn't do enough to find out.

Their own internal investigation stopped at the time in 2018 because of this.

“The person bringing the allegations forward chose not to speak with either police or with Hockey Canada’s independent investigator and also chose not to identify the players involved. This was her right, and we fully respect her wishes. We have settled this matter and as part of that settlement, we will not be commenting further.”

Hockey Canada, CHL settle lawsuit over alleged sexual assault involving World Junior players - TSN.ca

A woman who alleged she was sexually assaulted by eight Canadian Hockey League players, including members of Canada’s gold medal-winning 2017-18 World Junior team, has agreed to drop a lawsuit against the players, Hockey Canada, and the CHL after reaching a settlement.

www.tsn.ca

I have no idea on where you are getting this

They allowed players to not cooperate with their own internal investigation and didn't level any sanctions whatsoever.

I mean how they could they level sanctions here at the time or any time since she didn't name any names and there is no evidence that the 8 names involved are known to Hockey Canada.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Not every person in Canada benefits from a publically-funded organization giving hush money to the victim of their crimes.

A) It was a legal settlement agreed upon by both the accuser (the woman involved) and the accused (Hockey Canada). They did not proactively reach out and pay her off to "hush" her.

B) The players have not been convicted of any crimes. They may be at some point in the near future, if there's a further investigation by police. But until then, they're not criminals.

 

[PostBradMalone]

Their own internal investigation stopped at the time in 2018 because of this.

“The person bringing the allegations forward chose not to speak with either police or with Hockey Canada’s independent investigator and also chose not to identify the players involved. This was her right, and we fully respect her wishes. We have settled this matter and as part of that settlement, we will not be commenting further.”

Except we later learned this was a lie when a lawyer for the eight players accused said Hockey Canada knew from the outset who they were. Also, if no one knew who they were, how did all eight magically get the same lawyer(s)?

 

[CanHeDoIt99]

If your employer went to the media and said "this person was involved in a gang rape so we fired them" but you were not actually charged with any such crime, you could sue your employer.

And speculating on social media from your own Twitter account is completely different. I can go online and say, "Based on what we know, it seems like Alex Formenton was probably there. If he's on the team, I'm not going to watch." I won't face any consequences.

That's completely different from Hockey Canada releasing the names of these players.

Hockey Canada could release a statement saying they investigated the claim, noted that x players were there based on their investigation but there are varying accounts of what occured. They don't need to opine on illegal activity or produce defamatory comments to anyone involved.

The public can make their own decisions - whether they believe one side or another. The public doesn't have to accept the idea that someone(s) not being charged is exculpatory.

 

[Masked]

There's a pretty clear chain of events here: complainant goes to HC and the London Police, the key player tries to intimidate her into silence over text message, then HC lawyers up with an attack dog known for running down rape victims. The victim then settles over having her life ruined.

In that light, and in light of HC dropping the matter completely for four years after, I don't know how a reasonable person can look at this as anything other than a payoff.

Those are not the chain of events. You also don't seem to understand what "intimidate" means.

Assen na yo!

 

[Static]

Their own internal investigation stopped at the time in 2018 because of this.

“The person bringing the allegations forward chose not to speak with either police or with Hockey Canada’s independent investigator and also chose not to identify the players involved. This was her right, and we fully respect her wishes. We have settled this matter and as part of that settlement, we will not be commenting further.”

Hockey Canada, CHL settle lawsuit over alleged sexual assault involving World Junior players - TSN.ca

A woman who alleged she was sexually assaulted by eight Canadian Hockey League players, including members of Canada’s gold medal-winning 2017-18 World Junior team, has agreed to drop a lawsuit against the players, Hockey Canada, and the CHL after reaching a settlement.

www.tsn.ca

I have no idea on where you are getting this


I mean how they could they level sanctions here at the time or any time since she didn't name any names and there is no evidence that the 8 names involved are known to Hockey Canada.

Well, pretty easily. They could have forced the players present to cooperate with their investigation. The internal investigation did not have to end when the victim chose not to cooperate, it was incredibly convenient for HC to kill it there.

 

[PostBradMalone]

Those are not the chain of events. You also don't seem to understand what "intimidate" means.

Assen na yo!

Which event(s) are incorrect?

 

[Bevans]

If your employer went to the media and said "this person was involved in a gang rape so we fired them" but you were not actually charged with any such crime, you could sue your employer.

And speculating on social media from your own Twitter account is completely different. I can go online and say, "Based on what we know, it seems like Alex Formenton was probably there. If he's on the team, I'm not going to watch." I won't face any consequences.

That's completely different from Hockey Canada releasing the names of these players.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the law with respect to privacy.

You seem to be conflating the fact that laws against actions such as defamation and libel exist with some sort of incorrect constitutional privacy right.

 

[rielledup]

Can people honestly not figure out that the reason the player asked the girl if she had gone to the police was because somebody obviously had contacted him and he knew she had made a complaint? So many people bringing up this point here and on reddit thinking that the player just randomly asked the girl out of a guilty conscience if she had gone to the police.

I think the players definitely did something messed up in this situation and people should be punished but it just bothers me the complete lack of common sense when bringing up that specific point.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Except we later learned this was a lie when a lawyer for the eight players accused said Hockey Canada knew from the outset who they were. Also, if no one knew who they were, how did all eight magically get the same lawyer?

We don’t even know if it’s 8 anymore, as I see 7 a lot now, there is a lot of confusion and a lot of facts yet we probably don’t know about.
Unless it went to 7 because she supposedly consented with one.

 

[wetcoast]

It's very interesting what lens you choose to view improvement through. Not systemic, but personal.

Are the 2 mutually exclusive and once again I haven't seen any suggestions from you on either matter, just lots of statements and sometimes not portraying the facts (or lack of facts) in a non judgmental manner but rather from a very selective POV.

Heck you couldn't even see the irony (not to mention some bad optics if one stops to think about it in terms we aren't going to discuss here) about the MP taking a naked photo of another MP, obviously without his permission who is on the Heritage Council heading the current process.

Also isn't individual or personal conduct at the crux of the matter here or at least a large part of it?

 

[Silky Johnson]

Russian players - barred from playing hockey internationally, because of something that is unrelated to hockey

Canadian players - not barred from playing hockey internationally, because of something that is related to hockey.

Hey, if the Russian WJC players had all gang-raped a Ukrainian reporter I'd be with you 100%, ban them from the tourney.

But, that's not why they've been banned, now, is it?

You are not very good at this, and by this I mean coherent thought.

Russia is being systematically banned from most international events/competitions because they have been labelled a pariah state due to their actions in Ukraine. It is an action against the state, hence individual players have not been banned from the NHL or other club/individual sports. This is analogous to apartheid South Africa. Its the international community saying "as long as you do this, you are not a legitimate state."

Hockey Canada (potencially) doing a bad thing is not the same. First, it is being acknowledged as (potencially) wrong by the Canadian Government & Public and new oversight is being put in place. Its also not systematic or even proven yet.

An organisation within a country committing a wrong and being held to account within that country is REALLY FAR from deserving international sanctions...like as far as can be.

PS I didn't come to here to argue the fairness of Russian Sanctions when other countries do bad things as well (although I could). The point is that the Russian Sanctions and Hockey Canada scandle are in no way analogous.

 

[CanHeDoIt99]

Can people honestly not figure out that the reason the player asked the girl if she had gone to the police was because somebody obviously had contacted him and he knew she had made a complaint? So many people bringing up this point here and on reddit thinking that the player just randomly asked the girl out of a guilty conscience if she had gone to the police.

I think the players definitely did something messed up in this situation and people should be punished but it just bothers me the complete lack of common sense when bringing up that specific point.

Could have happened this way - we don't know.

We do know there are alleged videos the night of the incident where the player(s) involved specifically had the victim talk about consenting - so its not absurd to think less than 24 hours later that mindset continued through texts.

I wouldn't be shocked at all to hear that someone connected to the police or an organization related to the player got a tip of a complaint and reached out to the player though - its not far fetched to me, but we just don't know.

 

[99ovr]

According to this Toronto Star article 13 players have denied it either with a statement from them personally or by their representatives. There were 3 players not at the event. The following players have denied it or weren't there.

More players step forward in Hockey Canada sex assault investigation

Coyotes defenceman Connor Timmins is the 14th player from Canada’s 2018 world junior team of 22 to comment publicly. Some have proclaimed innocence. Most have promised co-operation.

www.thestar.com

Timmins
Dube
Clague
Bean
Hart
Point
Kyrou
Raddysh
Mete
Makar
Fabbro
Gladjovich
Foote

Edit: a 14th player had a statement released but didn't have a denial

To be quite frank public denial doesn't mean anything they can still be guilty

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Except we later learned this was a lie when a lawyer for the eight players accused said Hockey Canada knew from the outset who they were. Also, if no one knew who they were, how did all eight magically get the same lawyer?

Didn't that lawyer retract his statement?

 

[99ovr]

This is one of the most insane posts i've yet to read on this website, that's saying a lot. I almost think it's satire?

So I see you don't care about the victim then if you would not want her filthy rich there Filthy Dangles

 

[PostBradMalone]

Can people honestly not figure out that the reason the player asked the girl if she had gone to the police was because somebody obviously had contacted him and he knew she had made a complaint? So many people bringing up this point here and on reddit thinking that the player just randomly asked the girl out of a guilty conscience if she had gone to the police.

This was obviously the case, but it doesn't make things better- actually, it's worse:

“You need to talk to your mother right now and straighten things out with the police before this goes to far. This is a serious matter that she is misrepresenting and could have significant implications for a lot of people including you,” the player wrote.

Step 1 of "I have been accused of a crime" is never f***ing contact the victim alleging said crime after it's been reported to the police. Even if there isn't a no-contact order, any lawyer will tell you it's the stupidest thing on earth and to never do it, especially in written form. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose, even if you're innocent.

 

[DaveMatthew]

This absolutely isn't true. I can go to any newspaper tomorrow and tell them my story about Player A or Politician Y sexually assaulting me and there isn't a mechanism within the Criminal Code or Charter that would prevent it. Civil law is a completely different matter- that newspaper better perform due diligence on my claims, for one- but that's far afield from saying the victim in this case can't publicly name those involved.



She deemed it "appropriate" in the face of a hostile investigation by the organization that was supposed to be working to prevent a future occurrence of this kind of thing. There's a pretty clear chain of events here: complainant goes to HC and the London Police, the key player tries to intimidate her into silence over text message, then HC lawyers up with an attack dog known for running down rape victims. The victim then settles over having her life ruined.

In that light, and in light of HC dropping the matter completely for four years after, I don't know how a reasonable person can look at this as anything other than a payoff.



How can we be sure they did the "right thing" when you admit they didn't bother to expand their purview beyond "Welp, sounds like a likely story, here's some money"?

You're confusing several things.

You, as a victim, could certainly go to the press and make an accusation. And this victim could have very well gone to the press and named names. (However, this would have opened her up to defamation if the accused fought back, as it would anyone). But that is completely different from Hockey Canada releasing the names of the accused players.

Also, the victim sought out financial damages. She received the financial damages she sought. That is why she filed the civil suit against Hockey Canada. That is completely separate from any criminal case that could have been, and might still be, pursued.

This is how I look at it:

• I'm not upset that the victim received a financial settlement. She went through an incredibly traumatic experience. And while she may not have been able to hold her attackers criminally responsible (and we should absolutely have a conversation about how to revamp the sexual assault reporting/investigative processes in place), I'm glad she was able to hold someone accountable. While it won't make it go away, she deserves the millions for what she went through.

• Hockey Canada should have compensated her financially. I have no problem with that. They also should have done a hell of a lot more to prevent situations like from happening again. I have a problem with them doing nothing after the fact.

• The responsibility on whether to reopen the investigation and charge the accused rests with law enforcement and the crown. And they should base that decision on the facts and law, not public opinion. If the players are charged, we'll know their names for sure. If they're not? We can speculate and hold the opinion that they're scum, but that's all. We're not owed confirmation of anything unless they're charged.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Are the 2 mutually exclusive and once again I haven't seen any suggestions from you on either matter, just lots of statements and sometimes not portraying the facts (or lack of facts) in a non judgmental manner but rather from a very selective POV.

Heck you couldn't even see the irony (not to mention some bad optics if one stops to think about it in terms we aren't going to discuss here) about the MP taking a naked photo of another MP, obviously without his permission who is on the Heritage Council heading the current process.

Also isn't individual or personal conduct at the crux of the matter here or at least a large part of it?

Didn’t know that
The MP doing the investigation took the picture or had one taken of him.

 

[red devil]

 

[wetcoast]

Lemire got warned for his behaviour. No one had to bail him out or offer William Amos any kind of hush money. That situation was public.

Apples to ribsteaks.

Sure and there was a time in the past (when lots of other things weren't as good or progressive as today to be sure) where he would have stepped down and it would have been called honorable.

But my initial post about that wasn't really about him but rather with some people being selectively critical and the one guy who responded ahs danced around the issue like a volcanic fire.

One would think that saying that HC only is acting moreso now because of being found out would also equally say the same thing about the "picture incident", the MP didn't have a moral change of heart he apologized after it was leaked to the media.

Both parties (The MP and HC) didn't act on their own but rather because of public pressure and for all we know at least hockey Canada did act right away with some sort of investigation so yes it is an apples to rib steaks in more ways than one.

But the bottom line is when both parties had a public problem that's when they really acted differently.

Once again I'm not questioning his integrity or character as I know next to nothing about him but the 2 situations were similar in the specific way described above yet the reaction from that other poster was none existent like his moral outrage is selective.

They could at least be consistent.

 

[CanHeDoIt99]

You're confusing several things.

You, as a victim, could certainly go to the press and make an accusation. And this victim could have very well gone to the press and named names. (However, this would have opened her up to defamation if the accused fought back, as it would anyone). But that is completely different from Hockey Canada releasing the names of the accused players.

Also, the victim sought out financial damages. She received the financial damages she sought. That is why she filed the civil suit against Hockey Canada. That is completely separate from any criminal case that could have been, and might still be, pursued.

This is how I look at it:

• I'm not upset that the victim received a financial settlement. She went through an incredibly traumatic experience. And while she may not have been able to hold her attackers criminally responsible (and we should absolutely have a conversation about how to revamp the sexual assault reporting/investigative processes in place), I'm glad she was able to hold someone accountable. While it won't make it go away, she deserves the millions for what she went through.

• Hockey Canada should have compensated her financially. I have no problem with that. They also should have done a hell of a lot more to prevent situations like from happening again. I have a problem with them doing nothing after the fact.

• The responsibility on whether to reopen the investigation and charge the accused rests with law enforcement and the crown. And they should base that decision on the facts and law, not public opinion. If the players are charged, we'll know their names for sure. If they're not? We can speculate and hold the opinion that they're scum, but that's all. We're not owed confirmation of anything unless they're charged.

We can ask for whatever we want and apply the pressure to get the names of those who are involved, with or without criminal charges. There is nothing (that we know of) stopping Hockey Canada from releasing a report on the investigation at the end of this that details the people involved and the various accounts. Then the public can make up their own mind, which is not dissimilar to if there was criminal charges, where people can still make up their own minds.