Can a Canadian professional hockey league thrive?

[Fish on The Sand]

I found out Canada has a professional basketball league called the CEBL (Canadian Elite Basketball League).

It got me thinking why there is no attempt to create a professional hockey league in Canada.

I say this because I feel the NHL has abandoned its Canadian fan base for American dollars.

Look how the league is treating Quebec. It has an arena, a wealthy owner and a fanatic fanbase.

Unfortunately, its market size makes it unlikely a NHL team will thrive there.

I feel that a professional hockey league in Canada must be looked at.

I believe there is a market for professional hockey in Canada.

Here is my plan for a professional hockey league in Canada. First, the ticket prices will be affordable to fans and families.

Second, it will attract and recruit Canadian players from the junior ranks and university teams.

Third, it will have 10 teams. Here is a list:

Vancouver
Edmonton
Calgary
Saskatoon
Winnipeg
Toronto
Hamilton
Ottawa
Quebec
Halifax

Fourth, the championship trophy will be renamed the Canada Cup.

I just don't understand why there has no attempt to do this.

You are proposing minor league hockey of lesser quality than the AHL and you are befuddled that nobody is talking about this?

 

[BattleBorn]

I mentioned it earlier and got no response. How could whatever this league would become possibly be better than the CHL that already exists?

Someone earlier mentioned that there should be a weird limit like height or something. That's already set up with the CHL/AHL age limits. 60 teams, mostly Canadian, great players for their ages, good crowds usually, semi-solid fanbases in most places, etc..

Just pay the players over the table if the money will be the only difference.

 

[rojac]

It’d do okay in the same way the XFL/USFL do fine in the states. Nobody is giving up their original teams to follow a new league beyond something to do when their favorite team isn’t on.

Current Canadian NHL teams resent going anywhere as their owners aren’t looking to devalue their investment for no real reason.

When your favourite team (or one of your favourite teams) isn't on, isn't that the time to spend time on other different interests?

 

[WarriorofTime]

This is mostly a Toronto thing. And even then a lot of it is a visability issue, the CFL is invisible in Toronto, I ran into people going to an argos game once in my life. Otherwise never saw a sign the team existed.

That narrative of the "best in the world" is pretty easy to prove entirely false in a moments thought.

NCAA is way below NFL talent levels, the CFL is a serious step up.

The fact the CFL exists at all when football is 4th behind basketball/soccer/hockey tells you a lot of how hungry Canadians are for a league.

MLS is a minor league, the top MLS team would be at best on continual threat of being relegated out of the EPL. This argument that people wouldn't watch a 2nd league is just unfounded.

Add to that we see all over Europe that people are passionate about their local club even when they can't compete against the "top talent" in Europe in soccer.

A massive part of that especially in Vancouver is down to problems with branding.

The CFL got trapped in a mindset thinking it was in direct competition with the NFL. This was actually true 40-50 years ago. Newer owners I think are starting to figure out that it is a horrible branding. To me the CFL is clearly division 1 football. It's Canada's first division. It's far more comparable to division 1 football in almost every way. I think if the CFL was smart they'd be playing up that angle, where real football fans love both the NFL and their division 1 teams in the area regardless of whether or not it's NCAA or Canada's first division.

You should really stop trying to compare the CFL with NCAA Football.

The appeal of NCAA Football is seeing young players ball out for their schools that have a lot of passion, tradition, rivalry behind them going back well over a century and then they go onto become millionaires and play in the NFL. Schools like Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State, etc. are churning out 10+ NFL Draft picks basically every year. It is the "best of" for college/amateur players, just like Major Juniors can be said to be the "best of" the Juniors Leagues.

Canadian Football League is a higher caliber, sure, because those are not age-restricted and those are professional players, not "student-athletes". It is a league for guys that played in College but weren't good enough to make it in the NFL. NCAA Football is the path towards the NFL, the CFL is a consolation prize for those not good enough. It's more comparable to the USFL and the XFL, both of which don't have a huge following. Trying to make the CFL "our first division" or whatever is just choosing to play pretend. They are different thing, and it's hard in North America for larger sized markets to get behind Minor Leagues.

MLS is not really in the pantheon of Pro Sporting leagues within the North American context even as Soccer has grown in popularity. It can do "fine", and it exists within the space of Soccer that doesn't have a clear cut Top league in the world the same way that the Big 4 North American leagues do where there is a lot of fluidity and player movement across leagues (see Messi, even as an older player, choosing to go sign in Miami and play out his career in MLS).

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Well first of all I'm not so sure how well either the CEBL (basketball) or CPL (soccer) are exactly doing as Canadian-only leagues. Heck, even the CFL, with over a century of tradition, and no competition from a US-based league, is on hard times.

The thing is a lot, maybe the majority, of fans aren't "hockey" fans - they're fans of the Leafs, or the Habs, or Jets, or whomever. They're not going to run out and watch the "Canadian Pro Hockey League" or whatever.

Most of the markets you identified already have NHL teams. Those that don't all have very popular junior teams. The existing teams, by the way, all control the major arena in those cities anyways.


Do you know what might be interesting though? All-Canadian Single or Double A minor league baseball. I'm not a huge baseball guy, but of the cities I know best Edmonton and Winnipeg both have really nice minor league ball diamonds with teams that play in cross-border leagues.

I suspect the costs of having to fly for cross-country games would be prohibitive however. Minor league baseball is very much about riding the bus.

I find the hand-wringing around the CFL way overblown from people on both sides. (CFL haters and CFL lovers)

CPL is a function of Canada's world cup bid. CEBL is odd, still up in the air.

The problem for any potential Canadian Hockey League - is, well it kind of already exists, with the major junior ranks.

 

[CTHabsfan]

It’d do okay in the same way the XFL/USFL do fine in the states. Nobody is giving up their original teams to follow a new league beyond something to do when their favorite team isn’t on.

Current Canadian NHL teams resent going anywhere as their owners aren’t looking to devalue their investment for no real reason.

The XFL/USFL schedules run during the NFL/NCAA offseason. Would this proposed hockey league take place in the summer?

 

[MMC]

How about a Canadian only summer league that's the equivalent to the XFL where guys who can't latch on with NHL teams can get a chance to showcase themselves with NHL outs at the end of the season?

 

[KevFu]

Do you know what might be interesting though? All-Canadian Single or Double A minor league baseball. I'm not a huge baseball guy, but of the cities I know best Edmonton and Winnipeg both have really nice minor league ball diamonds with teams that play in cross-border leagues.

I suspect the costs of having to fly for cross-country games would be prohibitive however. Minor league baseball is very much about riding the bus.

This is a topic that I think applies to all the leagues. The whole "why should we do it when someone else can do it for us?" has led to a chaotic mess of the minor leagues.

Why every league doesn't own/operate a minor league system that serves all the goals of the top league is insane to me.

The list of MLB expansion candidates is 50/50 between Triple A cities like Nashville, Charlotte, Salt Lake... and cities with no team: Portland, Montreal, Orlando.

The list of NHL expansion/relocation candidates we all talk about is Quebec, Houston, Portland (none), Atlanta, Salt Lake (ECHL), San Diego, Austin (AHL).

Why isn't the top level of the minors chock full of expansion candidates?

 

[tucker3434]

When your favourite team (or one of your favourite teams) isn't on, isn't that the time to spend time on other different interests?

For most people, yeah. There are some people that just can't get enough of it and will take whatever they can get, but it's a pretty small number. If I'm not doing anything I'll turn on a USFL/XFL game, but I have no desire to buy a ticket to see a game any time soon.

The XFL/USFL schedules run during the NFL/NCAA offseason. Would this proposed hockey league take place in the summer?

Might not be a bad idea.

I think Birmingham and their USFL team are kinda what I'd expect from a tier 2 Canadian hockey league in a best case. It's a football crazy town and there's no pro competition. Should be a slam dunk. They pull in about 15k per game. There's some appetite for it, but nowhere close to the 87k/102k that show up for games in Tuscaloosa and Auburn. The USFL gets by. They don't thrive. If that's all anyone is looking for in a Canada-only pro league, fine. If you're thinking you'll convince McDavid, Makar, MacKinnon, etc. to stay home, nope, not close.

 

[Lady Stanley]

You should really stop trying to compare the CFL with NCAA Football.

Not sure how you think comparisons work.

wiki: Comparison or comparing is the act of evaluating two or more things by determining the relevant, comparable characteristics of each thing, and then determining which characteristics of each are similar to the other, which are different, and to what degree.

The appeal of NCAA Football is seeing young players ball out for their schools

Young players is moving the goal posts, that isn't a target argument thats the meaning of that talent, it's far less talented than the CFL

that have a lot of passion, tradition, rivalry behind them going back well over a century

the CFL is older

and then they go onto become millionaires and play in the NFL. Schools like Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State, etc. are churning out 10+ NFL Draft picks basically every year. It is the "best of" for college/amateur players, just like Major Juniors can be said to be the "best of" the Juniors Leagues.

And many of these top draft picks end up in the CFL. Which is sort of the point. Almost all the CFLs imports were top draft picks. It'd be one thing if they were 18 year olds being drafted, but many of these guys are 3 years out of high school, they don't get drafted and turned into epic busts as routinely as they in hockey. Most of these guys were incredibly talented college players. More often than not it isn't a talent issue, but an issue of raw speed, height, weight etc that keeps them out of the NFL. The CFL with different rules allows different types of players to get ahead.

Canadian Football League is a higher caliber, sure, because those are not age-restricted and those are professional players, not "student-athletes". It is a league for guys that played in College but weren't good enough to make it in the NFL. NCAA Football is the path towards the NFL, the CFL is a consolation prize for those not good enough.

Good enough is a relative thing. Different aspects of the game level things out quite a bit.

It's more comparable to the USFL and the XFL, both of which don't have a huge following.

They have the same rules as does the nfl, more or less the same game which doesn't help flawed players perform.

Regardless the fact it doesn't have a huge following and the CFL does tells you there's a bit of a difference.


There's no need for there to be a middle league in the US, because they have the NFL and the NCAA filling in all the gaps that are missed.

Trying to make the CFL "our first division" or whatever is just choosing to play pretend. They are different thing, and it's hard in North America for larger sized markets to get behind Minor Leagues.

How many times does it have to be said. MLS is minor league soccer. If you think M stands for major you don't understand the sport. Most MLS teams wouldn't make it to the EPL, even the top teams would be on constant threat of relegation.

You're making something up that has no basis in reality.

In the two biggest by revenue sports in the world, both are heavily heavily based on all ranges of talent.

MLS is not really in the pantheon of Pro Sporting leagues within the North American context even as Soccer has grown in popularity. It can do "fine",

It does amazing considering it's full of minor league players. When the MLS opens up the purse strings it'll fast become the top league in the world.

and it exists within the space of Soccer that doesn't have a clear cut Top league in the world the same way that the Big 4 North American leagues do where there is a lot of fluidity and player movement across leagues (see Messi, even as an older player, choosing to go sign in Miami and play out his career in MLS).

This is a massive yet.

I was there 10-15 years ago when everyone was flailing their arms about with how the MLS would never work.

It is an atittude based on fear of change. A lot of people make that there's thing. Any change at all is overwhelming, but unfortunately the world is nothing but change.

The MLS proceeded exactly like was predicted, in fact many of the expansion fees are potentially higher than people expected.

People keep putting down the MLS when the reality is it's experiencing rapid rapid growth. And that's with minor league players, and before the upcoming world cup.

MLS is already 10th by revenue globally. Because of the magic of timezones it'll not just have a following in the USA but across latin America. It is yet again spaying minor league talent wages.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Young players is moving the goal posts, that isn't a target argument thats the meaning of that talent, it's far less talented than the CFL

This is correct. If only 1% of NCAA players make the NFL, then I'd reckon only 5% of remaining 99% makes the CFL.

 

[Lady Stanley]

This is correct. If only 1% of NCAA players make the NFL, then I'd reckon only 5% of remaining 99% makes the CFL.

Don't forget the import restrictions and the fact there's only 9 teams.

It's more like 0.1% end up in the CFL.

And many of them are quarterbacks, which is obviously something where size of field, number of downs, etc can have a massive differential in who is talented and who is not.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Don't forget the import restrictions and the fact there's only 9 teams.

It's more like 0.1% end up in the CFL.

And many of them are quarterbacks, which is obviously something where size of field, number of downs, etc can have a massive differential in who is talented and who is not.

Oh yea. But talent wise more of them probably make it.

 

[Lady Stanley]

Oh yea. But talent wise more of them probably make it.

Sorry I got what you mean.

yeah I donno, don't have a good idea of the failure rate of imports.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Sorry I got what you mean.

yeah I donno, don't have a good idea of the failure rate of imports.

CFL is better than XFL and USFL and most college players are not making either of those either.

 

[ColinM]

It's a cool thought but as other's have mentioned Canada's NHL markets are better served by the NHL, and Canada's largest Junior markets are better served by their existing Major Junior Leagues. Both would need to collapse in order to make an all Canadian Pro League feasible.

Also just picture what competitive balance would look like. It's not like there's an alternative universe where the Halifax Mooseheads could generate comparable revenue to the Toronto Maple Leafs.

 

[LMFAO]

The only way this could be possible is if the NHL kicked out all 7 current NhL team (which ain’t happening

But For fun
Vancouver
Edmonton
Calgary
Saskatoon
Regina
Winnipeg
Toronto
Ottawa
Hamilton
Montreal
Quebec
Halifax
St.John’s

That sounds like a fun league

 

[GindyDraws]

I found out Canada has a professional basketball league called the CEBL (Canadian Elite Basketball League).

You found out about the league... today?

Would you like to know that the league plays in mostly 4K sized arenas due to the niche appeal of basketball in Canada?

OP, couldn’t you have just bumped the other thread on this a month ago.

But how else would he rant about how "the NHL has forsaken Canada!!!!111!!" once more?

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

How about a Canadian only summer league that's the equivalent to the XFL where guys who can't latch on with NHL teams can get a chance to showcase themselves with NHL outs at the end of the season?

This would be the only way it could work.

 

[Lady Stanley]

It's a cool thought but as other's have mentioned Canada's NHL markets are better served by the NHL, and Canada's largest Junior markets are better served by their existing Major Junior Leagues.

The large CHL markets aren't getting the TV money they could be getting. They could easily out earn CFL money for starters.

Both would need to collapse in order to make an all Canadian Pro League feasible.

Or they'd need their owners to choose a bigger league.

Also just picture what competitive balance would look like. It's not like there's an alternative universe where the Halifax Mooseheads could generate comparable revenue to the Toronto Maple Leafs.

No one is suggesting putting the leafs and halifax together.

The big market earners would likely be Quebec City, Kitchener-Waterloo or Hamilton, regardless of whether or not you put a team in Toronto/Montreal or Vancouver. Halifax would be one of the weakest teams financially, but would get a big boost from airing games in the Atlantic timezone/newfoundland timezone.

The CFL gets about 40 million a year from TSN. You could imagine a C-League maxing out at around 2-3 times that amount. Due to more games and more relevance in Eastern Canada.

So roughly 10 million per team in tv revenue. Maybe 20-30 million in other revenue streams, in markets like QC and Hamilton.

You'd end up with a league where middle six nhl forwards would be treated as superstars. You'd have a base roster of AHL calibre players with 3-5 guys who could make it in the NHL.

 

[Lady Stanley]

This would be the only way it could work.

To me the critical dates on the Hockey Calendar for a C-League, is they couldn't dare overlap with the Juniors or IIHF world championship as you'd want to package in your brand with those two big tournaments. ideally whatever broadcaster carries those rights would have all 3.

You obviously have to have your season over with by the start of the NHL playoffs, and you need a gap availible for the Olympics. Sending your top players to major tournaments is a major way of boosting interest in non NHL hockey.

Personal opinion you'd want the regular season ending in late february. And have your playoffs run during the month of march. Having a preseason in August and Start of the regular season by labor day weekend.

 

[ColinM]

The large CHL markets aren't getting the TV money they could be getting. They could easily out earn CFL money for starters.





Or they'd need their owners to choose a bigger league.


No one is suggesting putting the leafs and halifax together.

The big market earners would likely be Quebec City, Kitchener-Waterloo or Hamilton, regardless of whether or not you put a team in Toronto/Montreal or Vancouver. Halifax would be one of the weakest teams financially, but would get a big boost from airing games in the Atlantic timezone/newfoundland timezone.

The CFL gets about 40 million a year from TSN. You could imagine a C-League maxing out at around 2-3 times that amount. Due to more games and more relevance in Eastern Canada.

So roughly 10 million per team in tv revenue. Maybe 20-30 million in other revenue streams, in markets like QC and Hamilton.

You'd end up with a league where middle six nhl forwards would be treated as superstars. You'd have a base roster of AHL calibre players with 3-5 guys who could make it in the NHL.

Assuming the existing NHL structure remains in tact, how exactly would this new pro league generate better tv money than what the CHL currently does? TSN can easily show a London vs Kitchener, Quebec vs Halifax, or Saskatoon vs Regina under their existing agreement with the CHL. Adding some mid tier NHL level talent on the ice won't drive that much in terms of additional ratings.

 

[Lady Stanley]

Assuming the existing NHL structure remains in tact, how exactly would this new pro league generate better tv money than what the CHL currently does? TSN can easily show a London vs Kitchener, Quebec vs Halifax, or Saskatoon vs Regina under their existing agreement with the CHL. Adding some mid tier NHL level talent on the ice won't drive that much in terms of additional ratings.

So can the other 60 chl teams. No one team has any leverage as there can't be any scarcity for television rights.

Not to mention you have no capacity to pool together a bunch of cities under one banner.

Why would a CHL fan in Cape Breton or Moncton support the Mooseheads?

If you can brand it right, you have the opporuntity to pool a market of 2ish million people under one brand, in countrast the CHL which gets maybe 200k per team if you're very very lucky.

 

[GKJ]

How about a Canadian only summer league that's the equivalent to the XFL where guys who can't latch on with NHL teams can get a chance to showcase themselves with NHL outs at the end of the season?

This would be the only way it could work.

Not at the risk of getting a better deal to play in Europe. Last year we had a world junior played in the summer that no one wanted to watch because it wasn’t during hockey time.

 

[KevFu]

The only way this could be possible is if the NHL kicked out all 7 current NhL team (which ain’t happening

But For fun
Vancouver
Edmonton
Calgary
Saskatoon
Regina
Winnipeg
Toronto
Ottawa
Hamilton
Montreal
Quebec
Halifax
St.John’s

That sounds like a fun league

I think a league like that could happen and be fun. But it just wouldn't be built to be an NHL rival. It would just be a thing... like how the ECHL isn't really a "minor league" for player development, it's really just a place that a team's 3rd or 4th goalie too old for juniors plays, and a couple grinder/enforcer guys can hang out.

It's basically the concept of the Discount Movie Theater, charging 1/4 of the price for movies that are 3 to 9 months old; only for hockey in Canada instead of movies.