C William Nylander (2014, 8th, TOR) IX
- Thread starter King Mapes
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The Iron Goalie
Formally 'OEL for Norris'
He's been up and down, as expected. Give him time, and he'll become more consistent bringing his NHL game more often.
WilliamNylander
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If he gets to play with JVR next season I think he has a legit calder shot.
Kid is making Colin "cap dump" Greening look like a 20 goal scorer.
Also big kudos to Babcock. If this was Randy coaching Nylander he'd probably be sent back down already.
Kid is making Colin "cap dump" Greening look like a 20 goal scorer.
Also big kudos to Babcock. If this was Randy coaching Nylander he'd probably be sent back down already.
Anth93
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- Jul 2, 2012
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You're comparing a coach with structure and an understanding of the game with a potato.
Carlyle wouldn't have been able to thoroughly understand the idea of Nylander taking ice time from Rich Clune.
Atomos2
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I see him as a 1C, whether or not he's an elite 1C remains to be seen but I think the odds are stacked in his favour
Mats13
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TheKrebsCycle
Throwing Confetti for Perfetti
Did he actually say that?
Its mentioned in Nylanders post game interview but I havent seen the actual original clip (Greening). I thought the post was a joke till I actually looked at the post game interview pact..
WilliamNylander
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Atomos2
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Namikaze Minato
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Leafs at Knight
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as Pure as Evil
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he serves a good purpose being out there with nylander. as he is a pretty physically imposing player. can scrap and will keep players from trying to take a shot at nylander
dubey
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Nithoniniel
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I'm going to have to defend Anth93 to a certain extent here.
I'm a big fan of Nylander and I'm very happy with what he's shown during his time as an NHL player, but people do go overboard. Not regarding his potential, I probably put him higher than most in that regard, but with his current performance. Especially describing his two-way game. I think it's likely due to him being drafted with big, legitimate question marks regarding that part of his game, and then showing up looking like any 19-year old.
Because that's what he does, to me at least. He looks like a guy with the will and the mind to play a two-way game, but who still makes a lot of mistakes. His backchecking isn't always there, his gap is spotty, he gets caught puck watching and out of position at times, and he often places himself in bad areas to help the breakout. All things you expect from a normal teenager.
He's closer to the worst center defensively on the team than the best, but the embryo is there for a possession-based two-way game of high quality. He's far from the liability in that regard that was a distinct possibility when he was drafted.
What I disagree with is the notion that we shouldn't allow missed chances into the evaluation of him. I'm of the belief that you look at all factors when judging a player, and if you regressed his production to the mean expected by his performance, he'd absolutely have a few more points on the year. It's not that chances have been missed, which happens to everyone. It's the sheer amount, and the quality of them. Like I mentioned in the last thread, he had 7 set-ups in a row where you generally expect a goal, but that wasn't converted. Ignoring this means you just allow the failings of his linemates to influence your perception of him as a player.
I'm a big fan of Nylander and I'm very happy with what he's shown during his time as an NHL player, but people do go overboard. Not regarding his potential, I probably put him higher than most in that regard, but with his current performance. Especially describing his two-way game. I think it's likely due to him being drafted with big, legitimate question marks regarding that part of his game, and then showing up looking like any 19-year old.
Because that's what he does, to me at least. He looks like a guy with the will and the mind to play a two-way game, but who still makes a lot of mistakes. His backchecking isn't always there, his gap is spotty, he gets caught puck watching and out of position at times, and he often places himself in bad areas to help the breakout. All things you expect from a normal teenager.
He's closer to the worst center defensively on the team than the best, but the embryo is there for a possession-based two-way game of high quality. He's far from the liability in that regard that was a distinct possibility when he was drafted.
What I disagree with is the notion that we shouldn't allow missed chances into the evaluation of him. I'm of the belief that you look at all factors when judging a player, and if you regressed his production to the mean expected by his performance, he'd absolutely have a few more points on the year. It's not that chances have been missed, which happens to everyone. It's the sheer amount, and the quality of them. Like I mentioned in the last thread, he had 7 set-ups in a row where you generally expect a goal, but that wasn't converted. Ignoring this means you just allow the failings of his linemates to influence your perception of him as a player.
He seems useful, I think he's earned a spot for next year, and off the buy-out list. Not expecting much more than a 4th liner. Next year Nylander hopefully has JVR and Komarov.
It all depend's on how you interpret the "potential points" All skill player's have the same thing happen to them where teammates don't finish.
A1LeafNation
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Nithoniniel
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Which I addressed in my post saying exactly that, but with Nylander it's the sheer amount and quality. Making a nice play that is not converted is common. Making seven plays in a row that results in open nets, breakaways and chances of that magnitude and not get a single point is extremely rare though.
Either way, it doesn't matter. With all players, this factor should be accounted for. Looking at just production will fool you, as it can be more or less representative of the performance. Especially in small sample sizes.
Semantics
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No way. You're looking way too hard, his defensive misplays are no worse than what we see from veterans like Bozak, and he makes up for them with a great stick, speed, and ability to read the play.
By every objective measure he's in the same ballpark defensively as Kadri, in large part because he's better at keeping the puck in the other end. Your eye test is broken man.
Give credit where credit is due or a year from now you'll look like all the Gardiner haters.
I think the only time its true is if certain analytics are way out of order. Nylander's are around average, so I don't think he has been a victim of bad luck. Most guys score more due to creating more chances, than an increased amount of their chances being converted. His OISH% was 6.6% (slightly below league average) entering tonight, and I would guess tonights puts him back among league average.
Nithoniniel
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You mean the Gardiner haters that I spent the last two years arguing? Yeah, not going to happen. There's a huge difference between thinking that Nylander is not a two-way force at 19 and that there's still flaws in his game, and the stubborn refusal shown in those threads. I'm not exactly saying that Nylander is not an NHLer here, like the comparison you are making. Jeez.
And your argument would be that I'm biased against him? Looking too hard to put him down? The guy I'm rooting for most of pretty much all hockey players in the world right now? Do you really think that's likely?
His defensive misplays are slightly more frequent and slightly worse than what we see from Bozak, and he's pretty bad defensively.
Babcock has been repeatedly on his case about needing to improve his defensive game, something we have not seen with most of the other call-ups. If Nylander had been terrific defensively, you'd think that Babcock wouldn't be as blind as I am about it.
Considering that you're the one who said the quote below, I'm not sure I trust your ability to make an objective analysis.
"80-100 points next year is realistic, this kid has a better shot than anyone drafted in the past 5+ years and he's an elite playmaker at the same time.
His progression in the NHL so far looks *exactly* like how things went for him in the AHL."
You are absolutely right about this as a general rule. However, he's rather comfortably below league average (placed squarely in the lowest quarter in the NHL right now), and as forwards can drive on-ice shooting percentage you'd expect him to be above average, with his skill level and vision. He doesn't actually generate shots at a noteworthy pace (good though), but he's created quite comfortably the most scoring chances on the team since being called up. That speaks to him most likely being a percentage driver.
Either way, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. Once the sample size starts to approach a full season and more, it'll most likely no longer be an issue.
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Kadri43*
Registered User
You have repeatedly shown to have a relatively objective perspective on Nylander.
The kid has immense potential, has shown flashes of very good play, but like any 19 year old, he has a lot to improve (like you said). He is sometimes flat footed and his gap control isn't the best. But you know what, he's 19. He's not going to put up 80-100 points next year and that's fine. He's not going to be a 2 way beast and that's fine. He is going to be a very productive 20 year old who still has a lot to improve.
BTW, I am a huge Nylander fan but please, temper expectations.
Atomos2
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I think we deserve the right to be as optimistic as possible. We have had to listen to endless posters come in hear and criticize Nylander in every way possible, from being too small, being too soft, putting up invisible points.... For months we've had to listen to Nylander being compared to Reinhart, to Draisaitl, to Rantanen, to Larkin, to Ehlers.... The kid has impressed like he has in every league he's played in. If people want to think of him as a potential franchise player, I'd say its fair for them to do so.
