C/W Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Ässät, Liiga (2018, 3rd, MTL) Part II

[Hfbsux]

I doubt he ever becomes that good, but then again I doubt Zadina scores 40. The odds are similar on Kotkaniemi being a Kopitar like player and Zadina scoring forty. And I know which one I want if it pans out.

Agreed!

 

[Deam78]

Bob MacKenzie is not a professional scout. I do not weigh his opinion heavily. He's a decent hockey mind, but he's good at certain things, kinda how Pierre McGuire is good at memorizing how big Crosby's flat screen TV is in his family room.

You should go back to read the poster's explanation of what MacKenzie's list his. It's not his opinion. It's a "summary" or "consensus" if you want of the list of professional scouts he has access to. Nothing to do with his opinion.

 

[Tuggy]

Bob MacKenzie is not a professional scout. I do not weigh his opinion heavily. He's a decent hockey mind, but he's good at certain things, kinda how Pierre McGuire is good at memorizing how big Crosby's flat screen TV is in his family room.

Aren't TSN's draft ranking based off professional scouts opinions? I don't think they are solely what Bob McKenzie thinks.

 

[Mrb1p]

Bob MacKenzie is not a professional scout. I do not weigh his opinion heavily. He's a decent hockey mind, but he's good at certain things, kinda how Pierre McGuire is good at memorizing how big Crosby's flat screen TV is in his family room.

I... just... told... you... his... list... is... the... opinion.... of... profesionnal... scouts....

He polls 10 scouts and aggregrates their rankings...

 

[TwoPiece]

Can I borrow your crystal ball? The truth is you can't predict the future: nobody knows if Kotkaniemi will become a Kopital/Barkov kind of player and nobody know if Zadina will become the goal scorer he was in junior. As a habs (and hockey) fan, I wanted Zadina (1A) or Kotkaniemi (1B) at 3rd. With the skill set Kotkaniemi has, it is impossible to predict if he is a top 5 or not, simple as that. Only time will tell and that's exactly why I don't take your opinion seriously.

No need for hyperbole here. I never said in any fashion that I can predict the future. What I did say, and imply, is that well-educated Red Wings fans have the capacity to better judge prospects based on the amount of great players that have skated for the team. Seeing as they typically watch their team more than most others, they have seen more great players on a consistent basis than most other fans can/do.

Regardless of whether or not you choose to listen to my opinion doesn't matter to me. I've been wrong and I will be wrong again. I just wanted to discuss the prospect and share that I think it was a big reach to select him @ #3. I don't think he'll ever be more than an above-average #2 center. To me, that potential isn't worth that price (Top-3 selection). Same as Frans Nielsen isn't worth $5.2 million/season.

 

[TwoPiece]

I... just... told... you... his... list... is... the... opinion.... of... profesionnal... scouts....

He polls 10 scouts and aggregrates their rankings...

I... just... told... you... his... list... is... the... opinion.... of... profesionnal... scouts....

He polls 10 scouts and aggregrates their rankings...

That literally is not what you typed.

 

[Deam78]

You should go back to read the poster's explanation of what MacKenzie's list his. It's not his opinion. It's a "summary" or "consensus" if you want of the list of professional scouts he has access to. Nothing to do with his opinion.

Aren't TSN's draft ranking based off professional scouts opinions? I don't think they are solely what Bob McKenzie thinks.

I... just... told... you... his... list... is... the... opinion.... of... profesionnal... scouts....

He polls 10 scouts and aggregrates their rankings...

If he still doesn't get it, I think his opinion will matter even less, like it was possible.

 

[Mrb1p]

That literally is not what you typed.

Bob Mackenzie doesnt make the rankings. Its scouts that make it, ten of them, including two NHL head scouts.

¿¿¿¿¿¿¿????????

 

[PKWeber]

No need for hyperbole here. I never said in any fashion that I can predict the future. What I did say, and imply, is that well-educated Red Wings fans have the capacity to better judge prospects based on the amount of great players that have skated for the team. Seeing as they typically watch their team more than most others, they have seen more great players on a consistent basis than most other fans can/do.

Regardless of whether or not you choose to listen to my opinion doesn't matter to me. I've been wrong and I will be wrong again. I just wanted to discuss the prospect and share that I think it was a big reach to select him @ #3. I don't think he'll ever be more than an above-average #2 center. To me, that potential isn't worth that price (Top-3 selection). Same as Frans Nielsen isn't worth $5.2 million/season.

I don’t think Kotka is a big reach at 3. Even if he turns into an above average 2 way C, it would still be a better pick than Zadina who looks like he will be a 1 dimensional goal scoring winger that doesn’t have elite speed.

 

[Mrb1p]

No need for hyperbole here. I never said in any fashion that I can predict the future. What I did say, and imply, is that well-educated Red Wings fans have the capacity to better judge prospects based on the amount of great players that have skated for the team. Seeing as they typically watch their team more than most others, they have seen more great players on a consistent basis than most other fans can/do.

Regardless of whether or not you choose to listen to my opinion doesn't matter to me. I've been wrong and I will be wrong again. I just wanted to discuss the prospect and share that I think it was a big reach to select him @ #3. I don't think he'll ever be more than an above-average #2 center. To me, that potential isn't worth that price (Top-3 selection). Same as Frans Nielsen isn't worth $5.2 million/season.

What the f***? Do you actually believe Detroit fans are some kind of superior super fans? Is this a bad ww2 era Marvel comic?

 

[PKWeber]

Take all colorful comments above and replace by Alex Galchenyuk*

habs will **** it up

Galchenyuk lacks hockey IQ tho

 

[Tuggy]

What the ****? Do you actually believe Detroit fans are some kind of superior super fans? Is this a bad ww2 era Marvel comic?

As soon as I read that paragraph, my troll alert senses came up.

 

[TwoPiece]

¿¿¿¿¿¿¿????????

That's not how I read it. It didn't make sense to me, sorry. English is not my first language, and it's not 100% easy to understand things through emotionless text online.

Okay, so MacKenzie doesn't have his own list, then? He just averages out 10 other people's opinions? Jesus.

I mean, I don't follow many other people's lists, but I thought TSN had multiple opinionated draft lists from their analysts?

 

[TwoPiece]

You should go back to read the poster's explanation of what MacKenzie's list his. It's not his opinion. It's a "summary" or "consensus" if you want of the list of professional scouts he has access to. Nothing to do with his opinion.

This is exactly the explanation that I need. Thank you.

 

[Hfbsux]

No need for hyperbole here. I never said in any fashion that I can predict the future. What I did say, and imply, is that well-educated Red Wings fans have the capacity to better judge prospects based on the amount of great players that have skated for the team. Seeing as they typically watch their team more than most others, they have seen more great players on a consistent basis than most other fans can/do.

Regardless of whether or not you choose to listen to my opinion doesn't matter to me. I've been wrong and I will be wrong again. I just wanted to discuss the prospect and share that I think it was a big reach to select him @ #3. I don't think he'll ever be more than an above-average #2 center. To me, that potential isn't worth that price (Top-3 selection). Same as Frans Nielsen isn't worth $5.2 million/season.

Fair enough. But is the pick really a reach? As mentionned before in this thread, he was top 5 on McKenzie's list and the Yotes picked a center before Zadina, who was thought to be 3rd overall by popular belief. For sure there was 3 teams (Habs, Sens, Yotes) professional scout who had other players before Zadina, not to mention the other professional scouts from McKenzie's list. We also have to consider that we have limited view of his games in Finland here in North America. Would this influence the popular belief? To get back to my question, Kotkaniemi would have not gone further than #5, I don't consider this as a big reach. I also consider that Arizona, Ottawa and Montreal might be out to left field, but that only time will tell. Professional scouting might know a thing or two more than we do, but of course they f*cked up before.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Yes, Zadina was so much better than the rest that he got picked at 3.

Oh, wait.

Show me some publications that had any of the 3 taken ahead of him rated higher. Just because teams made stupid choices doesn't mean they're better.

 

[TwoPiece]

What the ****? Do you actually believe Detroit fans are some kind of superior super fans? Is this a bad ww2 era Marvel comic?

More hyperbole...

If I understand you correctly, you think that a well-educated fan who watches crappy players, and players develop poorly, can scout and make as well-informed decisions about young players as a fan of good teams with great players can? I don't think so. That's not my experience.

 

[Mrb1p]

That's not how I read it. It didn't make sense to me, sorry. English is not my first language, and it's not 100% easy to understand things through emotionless text online.

Okay, so MacKenzie doesn't have his own list, then? He just averages out 10 other people's opinions? Jesus.

I mean, I don't follow many other people's lists, but I thought TSN had multiple opinionated draft lists from their analysts?

They have some, Button has one, and theres most likely other people, but Mackenzie polls NHL scouts including two head scouts.

 

[TwoPiece]

Fair enough. But is the pick really a reach? As mentionned before in this thread, he was top 5 on McKenzie's list and the Yotes picked a center before Zadina, who was thought to be 3rd overall by popular belief. For sure there was 3 teams (Habs, Sens, Yotes) professional scout who had other players before Zadina, not to mention the other professional scouts from McKenzie's list. We also have to consider that we have limited view of his games in Finland here in North America. Would this influence the popular belief? To get back to my question, Kotkaniemi would have not gone further than #5, I don't consider this as a big reach. I also consider that Arizona, Ottawa and Montreal might be out to left field, but that only time will tell. Professional scouting might know a thing or two more than we do, but of course they f*cked up before.

IMO it was a reach, yes. My opinion isn't the word of the hockey gods, though. I didn't have Kotkaniemi in the Top-10, and I like to do my homework. Good on MTL if they drafted a guy who can live up to the #3 overall bill. Prior to his D+1 season, I don't think he'll live up to that "hype". We'll all see in a few years.

 

[Mrb1p]

Show me some publications that had any of the 3 taken ahead of him rated higher. Just because teams made stupid choices doesn't mean they're better.

Why does the opinion of non professional matters more than the professional ones?

Does my opinion matter? Im as much of a pro as the ISS guys.

Craig Button had Zadina at 3, Tkachuk at 4, Kotka at 5 and Hayton at 7.

Mackenzie had similar rankings, etc.

Its similar to a 2016 situation, Matthews, Laine and then Pulju, Keller, Sergachev, PLD are all in the same group

 

[Mrb1p]

More hyperbole...

If I understand you correctly, you think that a well-educated fan who watches crappy players, and players develop poorly, can scout and make as well-informed decisions about young players as a fan of good teams with great players can? I don't think so. That's not my experience.

What the actual heck

 

[Captain Mountain]

More hyperbole...

If I understand you correctly, you think that a well-educated fan who watches crappy players, and players develop poorly, can scout and make as well-informed decisions about young players as a fan of good teams with great players can? I don't think so. That's not my experience.

Watching good NHLers has nothing to do with scouting prospects. Watching good NHL players in nice, scouting prospects for NHL teams is about projecting how young players in literally any other league in the world will look in the NHL. You have to know the leagues and the players.

But please, continue to tell Canadiens fans "well-educated Red Wings fans have the capacity to better judge prospects based on the amount of great players that have skated for the team." Canadiens fans have never seen any great players play for their team.

Also, what the hell does education have to do with scouting? I wasn't aware there was scouting degree at post-secondary educations. Most scouts are former players that don't even have post-secondary degrees.

 

[TwoPiece]

Why does the opinion of non professional matters more than the professional ones?

Does my opinion matter? Im as much of a pro as the ISS guys.

Craig Button had Zadina at 3, Tkachuk at 4, Kotka at 5 and Hayton at 7.

Mackenzie had similar rankings, etc.

Its similar to a 2016 situation, Matthews, Laine and then Pulju, Keller, Sergachev, PLD are all in the same group

As much as I'll give flak to those that had Kotkaniemi in the Top-10... Anyone who had Hayton in the Top-10 is smoking Heisenberg meth.

 

[TwoPiece]

Watching good NHLers has nothing to do with scouting prospects. Watching good NHL players in nice, scouting prospects for NHL teams is about projecting how young players in literally any other league in the world will look in the NHL. You have to know the leagues and the players.

But please, continue to tell Canadiens fans "well-educated Red Wings fans have the capacity to better judge prospects based on the amount of great players that have skated for the team." Canadiens fans have never seen any great players play for their team.

Also, what the hell does education have to do with scouting? I wasn't aware there was scouting degree at post-secondary educations. Most scouts are former players that don't even have post-secondary degrees.

This was not implied.

"Education" has nothing to do with formal education. I'm referring to hockey education. Like professional development, amateur development, leagues, etc. Some people just look at draft positions and stats. Others look at everything.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Why does the opinion of non professional matters more than the professional ones?

Does my opinion matter? Im as much of a pro as the ISS guys.

Craig Button had Zadina at 3, Tkachuk at 4, Kotka at 5 and Hayton at 7.

Mackenzie had similar rankings, etc.

Its similar to a 2016 situation, Matthews, Laine and then Pulju, Keller, Sergachev, PLD are all in the same group

You just proved that they all had Zadina at 3. And Mackenzie gets his ratings from the actual GMs.

You're citing Bergevin as a "pro" by the way