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C/W Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Ässät, Liiga (2018, 3rd, MTL) Part II

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Mrb1p said:
That was never his potential though, he wasnt drafted because he was the dafe 2C type, he was drafted because he has all the skills you want in a 1C.

A lot of people confuse 1C with elite C and 2C. Kotkaniemi has 1C potential, Im pretty sure its not 85 points, but 70 is a real possibility.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

Basically if you are not:
Crosby
Malkin
Matthews
McDavid
Tavares

you are not a 1st line center...

He could be similar to Kopitar/Barkov are they considered 1st line center?
 
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JeffreyLFC said:
Exactly.

Basically if you are not:
Crosby
Malkin
Matthews
McDavid
Tavares

you are not a 1st line center...

He could be similar to Kopitar/Barkov are they considered 1st line center?
Click to expand...
Even Kopitar and Barkov arent the end of the curve... guys like Bergeron, Barzal, Eichel, Kuznetsov, Backstrom are 1Cs too... I dont think hes far off a guy like Kuzy personally.
 
Mrb1p said:
That was never his potential though, he wasnt drafted because he was the dafe 2C type, he was drafted because he has all the skills you want in a 1C.

A lot of people confuse 1C with elite C and 2C. Kotkaniemi has 1C potential, Im pretty sure its not 85 points, but 70 is a real possibility.
Click to expand...

20 centers hit 70 last year and about 6,7 had that PPG page in less games. I think Kotkaniemi could become a 70-85 point player if well surrounded on this current core, no matter how he plays he will top out at 60
 
Doublechin said:
20 centers hit 70 last year, I think Kotkaniemi could become a 70-85 point player if well surrounded on this current core, no matter how he plays he will top out at 60
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What? His potential is 60 points top?

Even 60 points might not be too far off a 1C, a guy like Bergeron certainly is considered a 1C even if hes a 60 points C.
 
Mrb1p said:
What? His potential is 60 points top?

Even 60 points might not be too far off a 1C, a guy like Bergeron certainly is considered a 1C even if hes a 60 points C.
Click to expand...

I'm saying he could eventually be a 60 to 85 point player but with the current core in MTL he'll have trouble getting 60 65 with such limited linemates.
 
A 1C to me is more about how much the guy plays, and how many chances his line generates against opposing lines than points. Put simply, your 1C should be on the ice a lot, and you should be winning the game when he is. If that's not the case, you don't have a 1C.
 
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Mrb1p said:
What? His potential is 60 points top?

Even 60 points might not be too far off a 1C, a guy like Bergeron certainly is considered a 1C even if hes a 60 points C.
Click to expand...

Got to be atleast 70, maybe 80. I look at Barkov at the same age, and Kotkaniemi looks better to me. Abeit it is early, and he will run into some adjustment no doubt as a rookie. All I know is he impressed me last night. I can say this, for those questioning his pick this high this draft. And the thought did cross my mind, but I wanted to give him a fair chance before making that judgment. He looks like the real deal to me.
 
Doublechin said:
I'm saying he could eventually be a 60 to 85 point player but with the current core in MTL he'll have trouble getting 60 65 with such limited linemates.
Click to expand...
Limited line mates?

Gallagher and Drouin are both legit top line wingers.

Suzuki is one of the better offensive prospect outside the NHL.

Ylonen seems dynamic enough, but hes a long shot.

The Habs are looking at potentially drafting Kakko, one of the best wingers to come out of the draft along with Laine and Svechnikov. Or, at the very least a guy like Cozen, Dach or Podkolzin.

I mean, the Habs suck for sure, but the situation is not Ottawa.

Also, Kotkaniemi is good enough to a) produce his own offense and B) make people around him better.

Jonathan Drouin has enjoyed a revival playing next to him.
 
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The Winter Soldier said:
Got to be atleast 70, maybe 80. I look at Barkov at the same age, and Kotkaniemi looks better to me. Abeit it is early, and he will run into some adjustment no doubt as a rookie. All I know is he impressed me last night. I can say this, for those questioning his pick this high this draft. And the thought did cross my mind, but I wanted to give him a fair chance before making that judgment. He looks like the real deal to me.
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I wouldnt say that Kotkaniemi is better than Barkov at the same age. To me, Barkov really is the top end for Jeppu. Realistically, he settles as a 70 points C that is just short of Selke votings, so just under Barkov whos a 80 points C and perrenial Selke contender.

Barkov outproduced Jeppu in his Liiga season, as a C and played in the WJC and did really good too, while Jesperi was cut. Jeppu did outperform him at his d-1 u18 though.

Note that Jeppu had a crap team in liiga and Barkov had a top one.
 
NotProkofievian said:
A 1C to me is more about how much the guy plays, and how many chances his line generates against opposing lines than points. Put simply, your 1C should be on the ice a lot, and you should be winning the game when he is. If that's not the case, you don't have a 1C.
Click to expand...
But what if hes up against a better 1C? He becomes a 2C?
 
Mrb1p said:
But what if hes up against a better 1C? He becomes a 2C?
Click to expand...

I should say ''on average.'' Let's say Crosby played against Ryan O'Reilly over a 7 game series (lmao, buffalo in a series, just go with it) and Ryan got the better of Crosby in this series. I don't mean that Ryan is better than Crosby. On average, when Crosby is on the ice, his team is winning the game, whereas the same cannot really be said about Ryan.

Unfortunately, hockey is a game in which the contributions of individual players are all mixed up together. But this was just the best criterion I could come up with. If you sort centers by some catchall ''winning the game'' stat, and set a lower limit for TOI, you get a list that is a pretty agreeable ''list of 1Cs.''
 
NotProkofievian said:
I should say ''on average.'' Let's say Crosby played against Ryan O'Reilly over a 7 game series (lmao, buffalo in a series, just go with it) and Ryan got the better of Crosby in this series. I don't mean that Ryan is better than Crosby. On average, when Crosby is on the ice, his team is winning the game, whereas the same cannot really be said about Ryan.

Unfortunately, hockey is a game in which the contributions of individual players are all mixed up together. But this was just the best criterion I could come up with. If you sort centers by some catchall ''winning the game'' stat, and set a lower limit for TOI, you get a list that is a pretty agreeable ''list of 1Cs.''
Click to expand...
Id be interested in comparing the GPs of a guy like kuznetsov or Bergeron or any other "low end" 1C and compare them head to head, especially for players in the metro. Say Couturier, who lined up against three superior Cs in Sid, Kuz and Tavares for 12 games total+ games against the west+ games against the east, does he come out on top?

Edit: he would have a 58 to 42 ratio, without looking at injuries, matchups or going into tougher matchups.

What about Monahan?
 
Mrb1p said:
Id be interested in comparing the GPs of a guy like kuznetsov or Bergeron or any other "low end" 1C and compare them head to head, especially for players in the metro. Say Couturier, who lined up against three superior Cs in Sid, Kuz and Tavares for 12 games total+ games against the west+ games against the east, does he come out on top?

Edit: he would have a 58 to 42 ratio, without looking at injuries, matchups or going into tougher matchups.

What about Monahan?
Click to expand...

Monahan would make the cut.
 
Mrb1p said:
I wouldnt say that Kotkaniemi is better than Barkov at the same age. To me, Barkov really is the top end for Jeppu. Realistically, he settles as a 70 points C that is just short of Selke votings, so just under Barkov whos a 80 points C and perrenial Selke contender.

Barkov outproduced Jeppu in his Liiga season, as a C and played in the WJC and did really good too, while Jesperi was cut. Jeppu did outperform him at his d-1 u18 though.

Note that Jeppu had a crap team in liiga and Barkov had a top one.
Click to expand...
yeah but barkov played against NHL competition - it was the lock-out year. and fans from over there have said he was the best defensive center in the league that year regardless.
 
Sensinitis said:
? I would consider Kopitar better than Matthews and Tavares, and Barkov at least on-par or better as well...
Click to expand...
I just made a quick list based on hype. Nothing really serious.

As for Kopitar/Barkov I included them because Kotkaniemi is often compared to them as far as his ultimate upside.
 
Mrb1p said:
I wouldnt say that Kotkaniemi is better than Barkov at the same age. To me, Barkov really is the top end for Jeppu. Realistically, he settles as a 70 points C that is just short of Selke votings, so just under Barkov whos a 80 points C and perrenial Selke contender.

Barkov outproduced Jeppu in his Liiga season, as a C and played in the WJC and did really good too, while Jesperi was cut. Jeppu did outperform him at his d-1 u18 though.

Note that Jeppu had a crap team in liiga and Barkov had a top one.
Click to expand...

Barkov had mono before his -d1 U18 WC so he had pretty long break without playing a game before that. He wasn’t good at WJC’s because he racked most of his points in relegation round. Whole team Finland was total mess.

Kotkaniemi was really sheltered during his draft year in liiga. He played limited role and had much more flaws in his game. He was forcing bad plays instead of playing more effective and safe game. He looked like junior player trying to play against men. Barkov in the other hand was complete package. Best and most important player on his team. He played every single key situation and was their go to guy when they needed to kill penalty, protect lead in end of the game or goal when they were trailing. He did it even against NHL lockout players. I remember him outplaying prime Mikko Koivu who tried hard.

Kotkaniemi in my eyes have been pretty raw player. I was pretty suprised him to be picked in the top 3. I have been pretty low on him all year. Right now he has proved me wrong and i think he can be really good to star player in NHL. #1 C who can play in all situations and his consistency have been better. He seems to be quick at learning and adapting.

I still think Barkov is totally different level of talent because i believe that guy can hit 90 points and selke trophy at his prime. Gap between those two was massive just looking at their draft years but right now when i have watched Kotkaniemi grow so much even during single games i can see him being top 30 C in the NHL if he developes well. Barkov in the other hand can hit top 5 if not top 3 but we can safely say atleast top 10. So he is still behind Barkov but gap isn’t massive anymore.
 
thomast said:
Barkov had mono before his -d1 U18 WC so he had pretty long break without playing a game before that. He wasn’t good at WJC’s because he racked most of his points in relegation round. Whole team Finland was total mess.

Kotkaniemi was really sheltered during his draft year in liiga. He played limited role and had much more flaws in his game. He was forcing bad plays instead of playing more effective and safe game. He looked like junior player trying to play against men. Barkov in the other hand was complete package. Best and most important player on his team. He played every single key situation and was their go to guy when they needed to kill penalty, protect lead in end of the game or goal when they were trailing. He did it even against NHL lockout players. I remember him outplaying prime Mikko Koivu who tried hard.

Kotkaniemi in my eyes have been pretty raw player. I was pretty suprised him to be picked in top 3. I have been pretty low on him. Right now he has proved me wrong and i think he can be really good to star player in NHL. #1 C who can play in all situations and his consistency have been better. He seems to be quick at learning things and adapting.

I still think Barkov is totally different level of talent because i believe that guy can hit 90 points and selke trophy at his prime. Gap between those two was massive just looking at their draft years but right now when i have watched Kotkaniemi grow so much even during single games i can see him being top 30 C in the NHL if he developes well. Barkov in the other hand can hit top 5 if not top 3 but we can safely say atleast top 10. So he is still behind Barkov but gap isn’t massive anymore.
Click to expand...
Kotkaniemi lost a lot of playtime due to his injury in 2017 too, it didnt prevent him from dominating the u18 though.

As for his season, he got better and better as the year went on and thats mainly why he was picked in the top 3.

He looked like their best player in Assat after the WJC, its a shame he was cut.
 
Burke the Legend said:
Wingers aren't the big problem in Montreal. There's talent there.
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Don't try to make sense, this is HF...

That being said if guys like Gallagher, Byron Lekhonen got 15 or more goals with the likes of Plekanec or Danault at center, they sure could do something good with the Kotka, and i'm sure Drouin and Domi have some talent....
 
Elias Pettersson's body is worrying, dude looks straight up malnourished. Kotkaniemi is just a normal, tall, 18 yo. Kids with bodies like Matthews and MacKinnon aren't the norm.

Also like someone else mentioned earlier, Mackinnon gained a lot of muscle mass during his sophomore year and it affected his game negatively. If people absolutely need to worry about something for Kotka they should worry about his skating.
 

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