C/RW Maddox Fleming - Univ of Notre Dame (2022 undrafted)

[Artorius Horus T]

BTW. he is now listed at 6 foot 0 and 1 quarter / 205 lbs (USHL.com)
Lots of grown since i started this thread, when he was listed at 5 foot 9 and 160 something

 

[Coaches Coroner]

what ever dude, you are USA hockey supporter, also their National Team program,
you say what ever to back down your countries hockey programs doings.

George, you don't even watch the players in actual games. You click on names on EliteProspects, see ones with numbers you like, make a thread for them, and then cheer for them like a Hockey Dad.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Maddox is having a good, strong season for the Stampede.
- everything considered

Stampede, (19 W - 41 L), who are the 2nd worst team in the entire USHL
and have scored for, by far, the fewest goals in the USHL,
just 140 in 60 games (2.33 gpg) - 2nd worst Buccaneers; 163 goals for

Leads the team in points per game, assists, assists per game
- has 10-15 games less what most of his team mates

He has 33 points in 45 games, his 33 points ranks him 2nd
among Stampede players.

I know that his stock, ranking has plummeted,
from top 10 overall pick to 3rd round pick but..

His skill, talent, high hockey IQ, blazing speed,
solid two-way game, all that, has not
magically disappeared.

I think, he will be drafted somewhere in the
2nd and 3rd round, but in a redraft,...
i project him to go in top 10..., bold i know.
- but i have seen his game "too much", not to say that,
every time i see his full games, not just highlights,
Maddox to my eyes is just so good at hockey

Did not get drafted at all.

I've never seen the kid play, but I am sure scouts have. To me, his USHL numbers are not good enough to stand out.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Did not get drafted at all.

I've never seen the kid play, but I am sure scouts have. To me, his USHL numbers are not good enough to stand out.

Well, you have your opinion. I honor it
he played last season for the worst team in the USHL and was their best player in those games he played.

This season that same team is much better, also, Fleming has taken, developed more and is playing even better

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Well, you have your opinion. I honor it
he played last season for the worst team in the USHL and was their best player in those games he played.

This season that same team is much better, also, Fleming has taken, developed more and is playing even better

Why is he still in the USHL?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Why is he still in the USHL?

Why not? He hasn’t played enough hockey the last few years. Good to be playing 20 minutes per game now than be playing 14 per game as a freshman for a good NCAA team.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

a decent start to his freshman season in the NCAA
(the rookie season is called freshman season, right?)

3 points for 4 games (ties 1st place in team points)

i still believe in him, his speed and skill are level A
- he was once ranked in the top 5 (of the 2022 draft)

We al know what happened, in just one year.

His abilities hasn't simply disappeared
all of the games that i have seen, the highlight clips, kid is too good and too fast
not to succeed.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I still don't get why he wasn't drafted. NTDP must've put in the word he's bad news, and can't be drafted.

His compete level isn't the best, but a guy with his offensive abilities is a draft pick. Plain and simple.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

I still don't get why he wasn't drafted. NTDP must've put in the word he's bad news, and can't be drafted.

His compete level isn't the best, but a guy with his offensive abilities is a draft pick. Plain and simple.

This was exactly what happened, for some reason they put all the blame on Maddox in that 1 season
and they put him on some black list. - bogus do not draft list

 

[William H Bonney]

This was exactly what happened, for some reason they put all the blame on Maddox in that 1 season
and they put him on some black list. - bogus do not draft list

Oh god not this again

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Oh god not this again

Something happened. It seems pretty obvious from the sequence of events that it wasn’t a normal situation. Players don’t leave the NTDP like how he did.

I’m not saying either that the reasoning isn’t perfectly valid. For all I know, he’s a locker room problem, but something is off with why he left the NTDP and then wasn’t drafted twice.

 

[William H Bonney]

Something happened. It seems pretty obvious from the sequence of events that it wasn’t a normal situation. Players don’t leave the NTDP like how he did.

I’m not saying either that the reasoning isn’t perfectly valid. For all I know, he’s a locker room problem, but something is off with why he left the NTDP and then wasn’t drafted twice.

Nothing happened. He wasn't a premier player with the program and he wanted a bigger opportunity. He's on the record about it:

“I wasn’t getting a ton of puck touches or power play or special teams time,” he said. “You never want to talk about yourself like this, but I wasn’t in the highest frame of confidence … subconsciously.”

There is zero evidence there was some type of acrimonious split, let alone that the NTDP was actively sabotaging him or his draft prospects. It's a nonsensical position. If there was some huge issue that caused the NTDP to jettison him, USAH certainly would not have turned around and included him in the 2022 AAPG 2 months after he left the program, or included him in the WJAC team later that year.

Was he worthy of being a late round flier draftee? Yes. But it's not like he's been even close to a standout junior player. And when you leave a team chasing a bigger opportunity, you get it, and you still don't stand out in a way that justifies the hype you once had, it's not a recipe for getting scouts excited about your upside.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Nothing happened. He wasn't a premier player with the program and he wanted a bigger opportunity. He's on the record about it:



There is zero evidence there was some type of acrimonious split, let alone that the NTDP was actively sabotaging him or his draft prospects. It's a nonsensical position. If there was some huge issue that caused the NTDP to jettison him, USAH certainly would not have turned around and included him in the 2022 AAPG 2 months after he left the program, or included him in the WJAC team later that year.

Was he worthy of being a late round flier draftee? Yes. But it's not like he's been even close to a standout junior player. And when you leave a team chasing a bigger opportunity, you get it, and you still don't stand out in a way that justifies the hype you once had, it's not a recipe for getting scouts excited about your upside.

In his second year there were some games he literally wouldn’t play despite being in the lineup or might get only a few shifts the whole game. And this wasn’t always in a 13F role. That team was playing down a forward for that whole first half of that season due to injury.

His first year he wasn’t among the top few leading scorers, but he scored comparably to a few first round forwards from that team. How does he go from a solid contributor to the type of role that is almost never given to NTDP players? Even the worst players that are so clearly not NHL material play like 10 minutes a game, if they are on a regular line/pair.

And he’s smart to take responsibility and say the right things. Does him no good to badmouth the NTDP and play the victim. The NTDP has high credibility, so it’d be a losing battle. For all we know the wrongdoing could’ve been all his fault. Even if there was some type of conflict at the NTDP, I don’t see how that would ban him from future USAH events. Musty accepted an NTDP spot and backed out last minute, and was on the Hlinka team a year later.

Not saying there’s visible evidence of of wrongdoing from either side, but the circumstances suggest there might’ve been some wrongdoing. I doubt we’ll ever know the full story, but I don’t think it’s a nothing to see here situation.

 

[William H Bonney]

In his second year there were some games he literally wouldn’t play despite being in the lineup or might get only a few shifts the whole game. And this wasn’t always in a 13F role. That team was playing down a forward for that whole first half of that season due to injury.

His first year he wasn’t among the top few leading scorers, but he scored comparably to a few first round forwards from that team. How does he go from a solid contributor to the type of role that is almost never given to NTDP players? Even the worst players that are so clearly not NHL material play like 10 minutes a game, if they are on a regular line/pair.

And he’s smart to take responsibility and say the right things. Does him no good to badmouth the NTDP and play the victim. The NTDP has high credibility, so it’d be a losing battle. For all we know the wrongdoing could’ve been all his fault. Even if there was some type of conflict at the NTDP, I don’t see how that would ban him from future USAH events. Musty accepted an NTDP spot and backed out last minute, and was on the Hlinka team a year later.

Not saying there’s visible evidence of of wrongdoing from either side, but the circumstances suggest there might’ve been some wrongdoing. I doubt we’ll ever know the full story, but I don’t think it’s a nothing to see here situation.

Fleming played during his second season. He wasn't getting top ice time but he wasn't stapled to the bench either as you suggest. Maybe he went from decent contributor to an afterthought because he wasn't very good, players change a lot at that age and others had passed him in abilities, and he lost his confidence and the coaches lost confidence in him?

Had Fleming not had a ton of pre-NTDP hype no one would be fabricating these tales to explain his fall. People get far too attached to U16 hype and it negatively affects their evaluations of the player and their situation going forward.

The NTDP offered Musty a spot. He did not accept.

If there was something that caused the NTDP to permanently banish a kid to the bench (which didn't happen) and then kick him off the team, USAH absolutely would not include that player in their prospects game for the draft two months later.

There's nothing wrong with Fleming having left the program to chase a better opportunity. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. I can't fault a kid for taking a chance on himself, even if it didn't work out for his draft prospects. But there is something wrong with folks baselessly speculating about it over and over, peddling conspiracy theories as facts in an attempt to recover a player's long evaporated hype.

 

[ndmd99]

Fleming had a strong U-17 start (think he was PPG for about 10 games), but missed about 6 weeks for an appendectomy. By the time he returned, other guys had established themselves in the lineup and he wasn't able to regain his spot.

He was buried on the depth chart, so leaving the NTDP was the right move. And I agree with Bonney that I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. I'd argue that it's even in USAH's best interests to encourage some players with skill that get buried behind talent on the NTDP depth chart to get out of the program for top-6/PP minutes elsewhere.

I watched Fleming a good bit at Sioux Falls. I can see how he went undrafted. I like his hands. He sees the ice well and is a gifted passer. But it also looked like he skates in molasses. And he was unmotivated/passive without the puck.

I thought he'd be in/out of the Irish lineup this year as the 13th F. But he has been a surprise. He dropped some weight (roster has him at 199 lbs compared to 205 at SF) and it shows with his skating. He is far more engaged in play that doesn't show up on the score sheet.

He'll score some this year on the PP. Think he'll excel there with more time/space. He was promoted to PP1 yesterday (which led to 2 assists).

His bigger challenge will be translating that scoring to 5v5. Barring injury, there's zero chance he'll be top-6 this year (both RW's are 5th year grads). But he'll have his opportunity next year when it's near certainty he'll be top-6 facing crazy talent in the B10 on a regular basis.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

2 more assists.

Leads his team in assist with 5
tied for first in points with also 5.

Maybe in his next game, he'll get his 1st goal.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

 

[Artorius Horus T]

First ever NCAA goal for Maddox, congrats!
In his first ever BIG TEN game.. and it was the 3-3 tying goal,
The fighting irish took a sow

His 7 points (in 8 games) leads his team.

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

Not looking to wade into a back and forth - just looking for some objective observances from those who have seen him play wth the Irish.

Six assists in 14 games may not be dominant but is impressive for a 19-year-old freshman. Notre Dame has been better than expected and have several young players doing the heavy lifting.