C/RW Jonatan Berggren - Skelleftea, SWE JRs (2018, 33rd, DET)

[TheMule93]

he reminds me of nikolaj ehlers

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Didn't somebody say at some point that he'd be a top 10 pick if not for his size?

 

[M2Beezy]

Didn't somebody say at some point that he'd be a top 10 pick if not for his size?

I had him in my top ten bpa for what its worth

 

[Kevin Musto]

I ranked him 11th.

He's the same size as Kane so that shouldn't be a concern.

 

[Mrb1p]

Didn't somebody say at some point that he'd be a top 10 pick if not for his size?

I ranked him 14th.

I think theres more upside here than with Zadina.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I ranked him 14th.

I think theres more upside here than with Zadina.

Yes, we're well aware that you don't like Zadina.

 

[Mrb1p]

Yes, we're well aware that you don't like Zadina.

I hate him so much I ranked him 5th! A SPOT ABOVE WHERE HE GOT DRAFTED!

 

[wingsnut19]

I hate him so much I ranked him 5th! A SPOT ABOVE WHERE HE GOT DRAFTED!

It's like a genwunner complaining that everyone hates on Charizard because they rank some other Pokemon as better despite that person still having Charizard in their top 5.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I ranked him 14th.

I think theres more upside here than with Zadina.

I don’t see it. Zadina has better size and scoring ability while also being elusive and multidimensional. Berggren maybe a little quicker on his feet and possibly better playmaker?
I think people always go crazy over these skilled smaller guys, but realistically I see Berggren’s ceiling as peak-Nyquist (very good player) rather than superstar (which Zadina has potential to be).

 

[NotProkofievian]

I ranked him 11th.

He's the same size as Kane so that shouldn't be a concern.

Same. Ylönen was first on my list after Detroit took Berggren, but I was still pretty mad.

 

[TwoPiece]

I had Berggren ranked 21st. I just think his game suits the center ice position better than wing, but he doesn't often play center. With Detroit's other center players/prospects, he might not get the opportunity to go the Zetterberg route (starting off as a wing and transitioning back to C). He's more tenacious than a guy like Rasmussen, and that quality is something that helped both Datsyuk and Z excel at being two-way centers.

Maybe if they can unload a guy like Frans Nielsen...

Either way, he's definitely one of the most skilled players from the 2018 draft.

 

[Mrb1p]

It's like a genwunner complaining that everyone hates on Charizard because they rank some other Pokemon as better despite that person still having Charizard in their top 5.

Thats basically me

 

[Hen Kolland]

I ranked him 14th.

I think theres more upside here than with Zadina.

If by upside you mean relative value of their draft position compared to your personal draft rankings...then I would agree. If you're trying to say the Wings got Zadina at +1 pick value and Berggren at +19 pick value, then yes, the "upside" is higher. I think the issue is you used the word "upside" and made it a direct comparison to Zadina. Zadina is a better player now, with more potential now. Head to head, Zadina runs away with the award for higher upside.

That being said, Berggren definitely has the better chance to blow away his estimated return as an early second round pick, which I think is what you were trying to communicate.

 

[Mrb1p]

If by upside you mean relative value of their draft position compared to your personal draft rankings...then I would agree. If you're trying to say the Wings got Zadina at +1 pick value and Berggren at +19 pick value, then yes, the "upside" is higher. I think the issue is you used the word "upside" and made it a direct comparison to Zadina. Zadina is a better player now, with more potential now. Head to head, Zadina runs away with the award for higher upside.

That being said, Berggren definitely has the better chance to blow away his estimated return as an early second round pick, which I think is what you were trying to communicate.

No. I think Berggren has a good chance to be a better player than Zadina, thats it.

Berggren drives the play like no other, he always impacts the ice when hes on it. Zadina doesnt.

 

[Hen Kolland]

No. I think Berggren has a good chance to be a better player than Zadina, thats it.

Berggren drives the play like no other, he always impacts the ice when hes on it. Zadina doesnt.

If that's the case, there is no reason to have listed Zadina at 5 and Berggren at 14. Don't mention your personal rankings like they mean something and then share your opinion that contradicts them immediately.

I believe it was a comment about Datsyuk when someone with Detroit (maybe Hakan Andersson) said something to the extent of: "if we thought he was going to be this good, we wouldn't have waited until #171 to pick him."

 

[Mrb1p]

If that's the case, there is no reason to have listed Zadina at 5 and Berggren at 14. Don't mention your personal rankings like they mean something and then share your opinion that contradicts them immediately.

I believe it was a comment about Datsyuk when someone with Detroit (maybe Hakan Andersson) said something to the extent of: "if we thought he was going to be this good, we wouldn't have waited until #171 to pick him."

Theres a difference. A ranking has many parameters. Zadina was a top 10 pick for sure, Berggren was not. Berggren is also further behind in his development than Zadina, it all plays a part in rankings. Theres also a level of certainty with Zadina. Even if he stops developping, he'll always have an elite shot. Berggren needs to go over the top with his physical skill, progress in shooting, maybe get even faster, etc. It's the same thing as drafting Tkachuk 4th and having a guy like Kravtsov at 9, do you really believe Kravtsov has less potential than Tkachuk ?

It's pretty basic 101 drafting.

 

[Mrb1p]

edit

 

[Frk It]

No. I think Berggren has a good chance to be a better player than Zadina, thats it.

Berggren drives the play like no other, he always impacts the ice when hes on it. Zadina doesnt.

Theres a difference. A ranking has many parameters. Zadina was a top 10 pick for sure, Berggren was not. Berggren is also further along in his development than Zadina, it all plays a part in rankings. Theres also a level of certainty with Zadina. Even if he stops developping, he'll always have an elite shot. Berggren needs to go over the top with his physical skill, progress in shooting, maybe get even faster, etc. It's the same thing as drafting Tkachuk 4th and having a guy like Kravtsov at 9, do you really believe Kravtsov has less potential than Tkachuk ?

So many holes in this...

Berggren is farther along than the guy who is pretty much guaranteed to play in the NHL this year? Uhhh yeah, no.

Zadina doesn't create on his own? Might buy that if he had Mackinnon or Hischier playing with him in Halifax. He played mostly with a guy who was a late 2nd rounder and is more of an all-around player than offensive dynamo. He creates just fine on his own, and did so all year.

 

[Mrb1p]

So many holes in this...

Berggren is farther along than the guy who is pretty much guaranteed to play in the NHL this year? Uhhh yeah, no.

Zadina doesn't create on his own? Might buy that if he had Mackinnon or Hischier playing with him in Halifax. He played mostly with a guy who was a late 2nd rounder and is more of an all-around player than offensive dynamo. He creates just fine on his own, and did so all year.

Huh, yeah, didn't mean further along there, I think it's obvious from my post that I made a mistake.

Also, on Somppi, when he went down with an injury in the PO, Zadina couldn't do much. But yeah, Zadina creates off the rush too, he's just not going to post elite numbers that way.

 

[snipes]

Huh, yeah, didn't mean further along there, I think it's obvious from my post that I made a mistake.

Also, on Somppi, when he went down with an injury in the PO, Zadina couldn't do much. But yeah, Zadina creates off the rush too, he's just not going to post elite numbers that way.

Your posts aren't making a lot of sense. I kind of see your muddled point but it doesn't make much sense.

 

[ricky0034]

*Mrb1p 6 months later*

"anyways I think Marcus Westfalt has a pretty good chance of being a better player than Zadina who can't drive the play or impact the ice very much"

"what is it with you and Zadina?"

"nothing he's my #5 ranked prospect"

 

[Bevans]

Theres a difference. A ranking has many parameters. Zadina was a top 10 pick for sure, Berggren was not. Berggren is also further behind in his development than Zadina, it all plays a part in rankings. Theres also a level of certainty with Zadina. Even if he stops developping, he'll always have an elite shot. Berggren needs to go over the top with his physical skill, progress in shooting, maybe get even faster, etc. It's the same thing as drafting Tkachuk 4th and having a guy like Kravtsov at 9, do you really believe Kravtsov has less potential than Tkachuk ?

It's pretty basic 101 drafting.

Wait drafting 101?

Was your list how you RANK these guys or was your list how you would DRAFT them, if they were for some reason all the same age?

I can't believe you're arguing with your own list.

 

[Mrb1p]

*Mrb1p 6 months later*

"anyways I think Marcus Westfalt has a pretty good chance of being a better player than Zadina who can't drive the play or impact the ice very much"

"what is it with you and Zadina?"

"nothing he's my #5 ranked prospect"

Mk that was helpful

 

[Son of Petter]

Wow. Hot take.

I ranked him 14th.

I think theres more upside here than with Zadina.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Theres a difference. A ranking has many parameters. Zadina was a top 10 pick for sure, Berggren was not. Berggren is also further behind in his development than Zadina, it all plays a part in rankings. Theres also a level of certainty with Zadina. Even if he stops developping, he'll always have an elite shot. Berggren needs to go over the top with his physical skill, progress in shooting, maybe get even faster, etc. It's the same thing as drafting Tkachuk 4th and having a guy like Kravtsov at 9, do you really believe Kravtsov has less potential than Tkachuk ?

It's pretty basic 101 drafting.

Remember when everyone said the Wings reached to select Bertuzzi because "he would've been around later"? And now he is a legit NHLer who has produced better than most thought he ever would. Obviously the Wings didn't think he was better than Mantha, but they prioritized selecting him way before the consensus would dictate. The fact is, teams are building their list of players they would select, and the priority they would select them. If a team has a player ranked #30, it's not because they think he will be available later, it's because they have 29 players they would rather take before him.

I think you slipped into the middle ground of falling in love with prospects in the later round, but feeling pressured to kind of fall in line with the consensus. The result is you now fighting for Berggren and talking how high you were on him, but without the conviction to place him in the correlated position on your rankings in the first place. And I promise I'm not trying to stir up anything; I do really believe you were and are high on Berggren, but I kind of wish you would have doubled down and gone to war for him as a top 10 talent leading up to the draft. It would have given you the right to all the credit in the world if and when he blows up.