C Quinton Byfield - Sudbury Wolves, OHL (2020 Draft) II

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1. Mackinnon did make the WJC team... and dominated the Hlinka as well.

2. Byfield did not raise his game at the Hlinka. He was good, but well behind two other players on his own team (Perfetti/Lapierre).

Ah, must have forgot MacKinnon made the team given he only had the 1 assist like Byfield. Always a concern when you see a draft eligible like MacKinnon fail at the biggest tourney of his draft year when his team mate (Drouin) - also a draft eligible - was so much better than him under the spot light. Especially coming off the U-17s the year before against the other draft eligibles, where MacKinnon didn't finish in the top 20 in scoring and was less than ppg.

His two biggest opportunities on the international stage going into his draft, and everyone was left wanting more...

Glad it worked out for Mackinnon in the end. ;-)
 
1. Mackinnon did make the WJC team... and dominated the Hlinka as well.

2. Byfield did not raise his game at the Hlinka. He was good, but well behind two other players on his own team (Perfetti/Lapierre).

3. The Hlinka-Gretzky Cup was Byfield’s first major tournament after turning 17, and the only other one he’s been a part of is the WJC where he was sparingly used in six games.
 
Again, it’s not just one tournament, it’s all of them. He has not once come close to dominating these tournaments, which is not something you want to see and raises some serious concerns about his ability to play his game when the competition is ramped up. It’s not to say he’s a bad prospect, he’s easily top 5, but there are some definitive concerns on how his game is going to translate when he’s not playing against players who are all 99% weaker/smaller than him.
Mackinnon didn't really dominate any tournament and the one that he was good at, his teammate was better, thoughts on this?
 
So Lapierre should be ahead of Byfield ?

Critical thinking seems incredibly lost on so many posters here.

No. Lapierre should not be ahead of Byfield, because as I’ve said, Byfield still has elite skills but has yet to raise his game when the competition is higher, which is definitely a concern for how his game will translate.
 
Mackinnon didn't really dominate any tournament and the one that he was good at, his teammate was better, thoughts on this?

He did absolutely dominate the Hlinka. And he was terrific at the U17 in 2011, at only 15.

But this is all a bit silly. I wish people would stop obsessing over the results of these short tournaments, and instead focus more on why Byfield didn't dominate there, and what are the actual flaws in his game. That's what matters in terms of his NHL future.
 
Mackinnon didn't really dominate any tournament and the one that he was good at, his teammate was better, thoughts on this?

.... he led the Hlinka in points and had one of the greatest Memorial Cup performances of all time? I’m not sure you know what you’re talking about?
 
Ah, must have forgot MacKinnon made the team given he only had the 1 assist like Byfield. Always a concern when you see a draft eligible like MacKinnon fail at the biggest tourney of his draft year when his team mate (Drouin) - also a draft eligible - was so much better than him under the spot light. Especially coming off the U-17s the year before against the other draft eligibles, where MacKinnon didn't finish in the top 20 in scoring and was less than ppg.

His two biggest opportunities on the international stage going into his draft, and everyone was left wanting more...

Glad it worked out for Mackinnon in the end. ;-)

You must have missed the Hlinka where he led the tournament in scoring and one of the best memorial cup performances of all time?
 
You must have missed the Hlinka where he led the tournament in scoring and one of the best memorial cup performances of all time?
Isn’t Hlinka age group though, so he’s not competing against guys 2 years older, who are the very best their country has to offer?
Mem Cup was awesome, but it’s not best on best.
Mackinnon is fabulous now, but needed to mature into his role, especially as a centre.
Byfield will follow the same path, as most centres do. In five years Byfield might be helping his team more than Lafreniere.
 
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Byfield internationally has been good, but not great. He has not dominated playing against the best but has been pretty good.

U17 - 3 points in 5 games
U18 Hlinka - 5 points in 5 games
WJC - 1 point in 7 games

That being said you are drafting him for what he could be and not what he has done. The projection of a 6'5 centre who can skate and make plays is tantalizing to say the least.
 
Critical thinking seems incredibly lost on so many posters here.

No. Lapierre should not be ahead of Byfield, because as I’ve said, Byfield still has elite skills but has yet to raise his game when the competition is higher, which is definitely a concern for how his game will translate.
Apparently it’s lost on you if a small handful of tournaments is the hill you’re dying on with Byfield, one of which he performed well.
 
That's a hell of an overstatement. He won't even be the strongest player taken in the top 10, let alone in the draft. Hell he's not even the strongest player on his own line. He's chippy and he's great on the forecheck, but nobody would confuse him with a real power forward. I think him being particularly physical at the WJC gave people the wrong idea of him.



The problem is, the oldest players in their draft year tend to also make better NHLers, on average (at least among high-level players). So their higher production ends up being actually predictive of their future level of play.

In 2014, would you have taken Bennett or Dal Colle over Draisaitl or Sam Reinhart? Those guys were all similarly productive, and Bennett and Dal Colle were almost a year younger. But it didn't translate into higher potential.

I'm not saying this to shit on Byfield, who I still think is probably the 2nd best prospect in the draft. But people tend to wildly overcorrect for relative age, despite the fact that there's no actual evidence that younger draft kids have more NHL potential.

This is a strange example to use to prove your point because both of the younger players were selected after the older players anyways, kind of proving that nobody is drafting solely based on age.

As for younger draft eligible players, I'd have to assume that the majority of your top prospects each year are not 17 when drafted so you are going to have a higher amount of "older" players being good NHL'ers but you probably still have a large amount of busts or guys that don't live up to their draft potential.

We can throw names out of younger draft eligible players that went too high and then I can toss out a name like Anze Kopitar who is also an August birthday like Byfield.

I get your point that being younger in your draft season doesn't guarantee that the development curve continues and surpasses older players in the same class but that ignores that drafting kids in general can be a real crapshoot regardless. If Byfield merely put up a near PPG pace this season but was still being talked about at #2 because of his raw skill and August birthday, then we could dump on the age factor with him. The fact is that he put up one of the best draft seasons for a 17 year old in OHL history while also possessing the raw skills and likelihood of being a real physical specimen once he is a finished product. While there is no guarantee of anything because of the August birthday, you still have to like the fact that he's doing what he is doing at his age while still generally not using his size to its full effectiveness.
 
Apparently it’s lost on you if a small handful of tournaments is the hill you’re dying on with Byfield, one of which he performed well.

One of which he performed okay, but was still blown away by some of his peers. As has been said he’s a very good prospect who I’d be thrilled to have if he magically dropped to #4, but his play if not without major concerns, biggest of which being that he doesn’t dominate when he’s playing against better competitors
 
One of which he performed okay, but was still blown away by some of his peers. As has been said he’s a very good prospect who I’d be thrilled to have if he magically dropped to #4, but his play if not without major concerns, biggest of which being that he doesn’t dominate when he’s playing against better competitors

I'm all about the Kings taking Byfield at 2OA but I agree to a certain extent about certain tournament performances; however, his play with Sudbury makes me not worry about it one bit. We can talk about his "weak" tournament results but then we can also talk about him going PPG in the OHL playoffs at 16.

He was tasked with being "the guy" in Sudbury but is not asked to be the same on these stacked tourney teams. He's probably the youngest guy on these teams so there could be an element of him kind of deferring when he doesn't have to strap a team on his back like in Sudbury. Granted, I'd like to see him just do the same thing in all situations but I think any concerns over his international performances need to be paused until we see how he performs as an 18 year old when he will most likely be the highest drafted player and will have all of the expectations put on him.
 
Byfield internationally has been good, but not great. He has not dominated playing against the best but has been pretty good.

U17 - 3 points in 5 games
U18 Hlinka - 5 points in 5 games
WJC - 1 point in 7 games

That being said you are drafting him for what he could be and not what he has done. The projection of a 6'5 centre who can skate and make plays is tantalizing to say the least.

This appears to be lost on many posters on HF.

One of which he performed okay, but was still blown away by some of his peers. As has been said he’s a very good prospect who I’d be thrilled to have if he magically dropped to #4, but his play if not without major concerns, biggest of which being that he doesn’t dominate when he’s playing against better competitors
He was terrific in the playoffs in the OHL what do you make of that?... This is quite the anti Byfield crusade you are on, hopefully for your sake he flops. If he realizes his potential its going to look really bad....

Kings 100% take Byfield at two.

Bob's list has Stutzle at #2 and I have heard from very reliable sources the Kings really like Stutzle. So I am not sure how you can say that... Both have the potential to be the best player in the draft. Anyone that says they know who is going to be better is full of it, both are superb prospects with franchise player potential.
 
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, out of the top 5 or 6 prospects no one got screwed by the Covid shutdown more than Byfield. All people remember is the wjs since he was injured for a large chunk of the time post wjs.

He would have dominated the playoffs and put this “doesn’t raise his level” talk to rest.
 
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This is a strange example to use to prove your point because both of the younger players were selected after the older players anyways, kind of proving that nobody is drafting solely based on age.

Sure, but I'm not arguing otherwise. NHL staffs generally don't go overboard with relative age as much as some fans do. I use the 2014 draft because you had 2 late-birthdays picked right ahead of 4 summer-born kids (Bennett, Dal Colle, Virtanen, H. Fleury), and it's the late-birthdays that ended up developing more, while the younger kids underwhelmed. It's purely anecdotal, and doesn't really prove anything. Still, I've never seen actual evidence that kids that are younger in their draft year develop more post-draft than their older peers.

As for younger draft eligible players, I'd have to assume that the majority of your top prospects each year are not 17 when drafted so you are going to have a higher amount of "older" players being good NHL'ers but you probably still have a large amount of busts or guys that don't live up to their draft potential.

It depends on how you define older. Late-birthdays (the oldest players in their draft year) are not actually that common; they're strongly under-represented in the CHL. Only 11.7% of QMJHL players this year were born in the last quarter of the year (Oct, Nov, Dec), while 38.7 % of players were born in the first quarter of the year (Jan, Feb, Mar), and it's similar and in the OHL and WHL. It's a well-known, well-documented discrepancy, and it continues at the draft: the later you're born in the year, the lower your chance of being an NHL 1st round pick. There's actually data that suggests those older, 4th-quarter kids are picked lower than they should, and have better career outcomes on average (see here and here and here and here).

3rd-quarter kids like Byfield (the youngest kids in the draft) are also under-represented at the draft because of this effect. Which is interesting because it suggests it has nothing to do with the draft age cutoff, but with relative age during youth hockey development.

So in short, being older or younger at the draft doesn't seem to really affect your NHL outcome. But being older or younger than your peers during development might?

We can throw names out of younger draft eligible players that went too high and then I can toss out a name like Anze Kopitar who is also an August birthday like Byfield.

I get your point that being younger in your draft season doesn't guarantee that the development curve continues and surpasses older players in the same class but that ignores that drafting kids in general can be a real crapshoot regardless. If Byfield merely put up a near PPG pace this season but was still being talked about at #2 because of his raw skill and August birthday, then we could dump on the age factor with him. The fact is that he put up one of the best draft seasons for a 17 year old in OHL history while also possessing the raw skills and likelihood of being a real physical specimen once he is a finished product. While there is no guarantee of anything because of the August birthday, you still have to like the fact that he's doing what he is doing at his age while still generally not using his size to its full effectiveness.

I don't really disagree with anything here. I think Byfield is the 2nd-best prospect in this class. I just think it has nothing to do with his birth month. He's the only guy in this class who's a pretty safe bet to become a top-6 center, and that's very valuable. My only real problem with Byfield is his ability to read plays and react to pressure, which is fine but doesn't really scream elite offensive player. Still, he has other skills to compensate.
 
@SympathyForTheDevils

Pretty interesting stuff. I checked the amount of births in Canada per month and it is the 3rd quarter months that routinely have the most births. Now, the numbers aren't necessarily thousands and thousands more than other months but Q3 has a pretty decent amount of births above that of Q1 with the latter being dinged a bit by the shorter February month.

I'm not a stats guy so I'm probably talking out of my ass but it seems that this could lead credence to the development angle of the Q3 guys as it might take a special player to really excel and stand out since there is a good chance they aren't as physically developed as those older players at key stages of development.

I'm an early October birthday and graduated high school at 17 but easily could have started school a year later: my parents made a decision. Start of my freshman year of high school, I was 5'4" and barely had armpit hair but I was 6'3" at the start of my sophomore year, a year that easily could have been my freshman year. Does my basketball development change if I'm always playing against kids that are generally my own age and I'm one of the tallest kids in my freshman class v. being a little boy when I started high school? Definitely.

Now, Byfield has the benefit of already having the size to go along with special skills so he would be an outlier to this potential development issue with the Q3 birthday. I'm probably making a huge assumption with the Q4 kids, but they might be more of a "finished product" which should be better for projecting final outcomes but also gets held against them because potential is so sexy and a safer player may get passed over for a guy that blows up in his draft year and is a late Q2 or Q3 kid.

Byfield has enough going for him to go at 2OA even if he was a Q1 birthday. It's funny that if he was born a month later, he would most likely be ranked #1 for 2021 and would fall closer to the Q4 guys that appear to be under-drafted. Real interesting stuff though in those links you posted. I remember being excited about Hudson Fasching since he was a late-July birthday and, even with this data, I love that Byfield is an August birthday but I'm taking him over Stutzle even if they were born on the same day.
 
Again, it’s not just one tournament, it’s all of them. He has not once come close to dominating these tournaments, which is not something you want to see and raises some serious concerns about his ability to play his game when the competition is ramped up. It’s not to say he’s a bad prospect, he’s easily top 5, but there are some definitive concerns on how his game is going to translate when he’s not playing against players who are all 99% weaker/smaller than him.


Isn't it remarkable that such a flawed, broken player in your eyes was able to put up one of the best 17-yo OHL seasons ever? After being PPG at a 16 yo in the playoffs including vs. a powerhouse 67s team:

Imagine if he were to correct just a handful of his infinite flaws!

I'm also not worried about the last sentence because his game hasn't been predicated on that anyway but also 99% of NHLers will be smaller/weaker than him, too. This isn't some 6'2" juniors banger trying to take on the heavies. It's not wrong to have concerns about Byfield because anyone outside of Laf is carrying some sort of warts/development opportunities for their games, but you're putting a serious wall of deliberate obtuseness to die on the hill of tournament performance without context or obvious opportunity for growth (both size and hockey) vs. his peers.
 
Isn't it remarkable that such a flawed, broken player in your eyes was able to put up one of the best 17-yo OHL seasons ever? After being PPG at a 16 yo in the playoffs including vs. a powerhouse 67s team:

Imagine if he were to correct just a handful of his infinite flaws!

I'm also not worried about the last sentence because his game hasn't been predicated on that anyway but also 99% of NHLers will be smaller/weaker than him, too. This isn't some 6'2" juniors banger trying to take on the heavies. It's not wrong to have concerns about Byfield because anyone outside of Laf is carrying some sort of warts/development opportunities for their games, but you're putting a serious wall of deliberate obtuseness to die on the hill of tournament performance without context or obvious opportunity for growth (both size and hockey) vs. his peers.

It’s amazing how defensive some posters get (usually the ones who said Byfield will go #1 over Laf at the start of the year).

I’ve already said he’s a tremendous prospect that I would be beyond happy if he somehow fell to the Wings but his lack of performance when playing against better competition is fairly alarming and goes with the concerns many scores and posters have about his real hockey IQ
 
Isn’t Hlinka age group though, so he’s not competing against guys 2 years older, who are the very best their country has to offer?
Mem Cup was awesome, but it’s not best on best.
Mackinnon is fabulous now, but needed to mature into his role, especially as a centre.
Byfield will follow the same path, as most centres do. In five years Byfield might be helping his team more than Lafreniere.


Regarding your “best on best” at the Memorial Cup. You obviously didn’t watch the Finals against Portland. He went head to head against Seth Jones and completely owned him. Pure domination.

At the time Jones was very in the discussion for #1 OA and I think that game swung a lot of opinions
 
@SympathyForTheDevils

Pretty interesting stuff. I checked the amount of births in Canada per month and it is the 3rd quarter months that routinely have the most births. Now, the numbers aren't necessarily thousands and thousands more than other months but Q3 has a pretty decent amount of births above that of Q1 with the latter being dinged a bit by the shorter February month.

I'm not a stats guy so I'm probably talking out of my ass but it seems that this could lead credence to the development angle of the Q3 guys as it might take a special player to really excel and stand out since there is a good chance they aren't as physically developed as those older players at key stages of development.

It's an interesting thought. There is evidence that number of births in a particular class affects NHL outcomes, but it goes by birth year, not birth quarter. Which makes sense since a player in youth hockey generally competes against players in their birth year, not against players in their birth month.

I'm an early October birthday and graduated high school at 17 but easily could have started school a year later: my parents made a decision. Start of my freshman year of high school, I was 5'4" and barely had armpit hair but I was 6'3" at the start of my sophomore year, a year that easily could have been my freshman year. Does my basketball development change if I'm always playing against kids that are generally my own age and I'm one of the tallest kids in my freshman class v. being a little boy when I started high school? Definitely.

It definitely would, but then you have to figure, in what way? "Oldest on the team" you would be better, and likely get more coaching, attention, and opportunities to get to the next level. "Youngest on the team" you would be worse, but might be forced to compensate by working harder to improve, or by playing smarter. Then maybe by the time those age effects disappear (at 18-19-20), you're suddenly better than everyone else. I've seen that "underdog" theory suggested to explain the great pro results of late-year kids. Though it might also be just a filtering effect, where late-year, non-elite talent, give up on the sport earlier, while early-year, non-elite talent sticks around due to favorable age effects.

I've never played the sport, but I figure those age effects must be significant in youth basketball, given the importance of height (or maybe just for centers?)

Now, Byfield has the benefit of already having the size to go along with special skills so he would be an outlier to this potential development issue with the Q3 birthday. I'm probably making a huge assumption with the Q4 kids, but they might be more of a "finished product" which should be better for projecting final outcomes but also gets held against them because potential is so sexy and a safer player may get passed over for a guy that blows up in his draft year and is a late Q2 or Q3 kid.

It may very well be why. But from the available data, it seems like it isn't justified. Either the extra potential of the other kids is overestimated, or the Q4 kids are not as much of a finished product as they seem.

But as you alluded to, this kind of stuff probably doesn't matter much for top-10 talents like Byfield. It would likely be more of a factor for later picks, plus it would be contingent on other variables like size or style of play. I really doubt NHL teams will spend much time thinking about Byfield's birth month.

Byfield has enough going for him to go at 2OA even if he was a Q1 birthday. It's funny that if he was born a month later, he would most likely be ranked #1 for 2021 and would fall closer to the Q4 guys that appear to be under-drafted. Real interesting stuff though in those links you posted. I remember being excited about Hudson Fasching since he was a late-July birthday and, even with this data, I love that Byfield is an August birthday but I'm taking him over Stutzle even if they were born on the same day.

"Sure Byfield looks great, but Luke Hughes is an entire year younger than he is!" :sarcasm:

I would also take Byfield over Stutzle. Between a guy who heads into pressure too much and a guy who does it too little, I'd rather take the former. I think Stutzle will have to make more significant changes to his game to be an effective NHL player.
 
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Regarding your “best on best” at the Memorial Cup. You obviously didn’t watch the Finals against Portland. He went head to head against Seth Jones and completely owned him. Pure domination.

At the time Jones was very in the discussion for #1 OA and I think that game swung a lot of o

Did watch every game. The Mem Cup is not a best on best tournament. Actually guys are exhausted, because they’ve already played four rounds of playoff hockey.
Mac was great though fir sure, but it took him until recently to become the dominant force he is. Byfield, in 3-5 years will be a more dominant player than Lafreniere.
 
It’s amazing how defensive some posters get (usually the ones who said Byfield will go #1 over Laf at the start of the year).

I’ve already said he’s a tremendous prospect that I would be beyond happy if he somehow fell to the Wings but his lack of performance when playing against better competition is fairly alarming and goes with the concerns many scores and posters have about his real hockey IQ


I was just being a smartass. Thought you may have caught it. Guess I gave you too much credit.

And ultimately I'll just have to agree to disagree because although I think it's something to note I think his performance in these tournaments isn't getting properly, fairly contextualized in your criticism. I also don't think "performance in tournaments" is as neat a road to "hockey IQ issues" as you're presenting. That doesn't mean he doesn't have flaws, I just disagree that those tourneys are emblematic of them, and that reading into them too much means you end up overrating a Lapierre and underrating a Byfield.

And shamelessly stealing from Ziggy because I think it highlights the issue (I know you're saying not JUST WJC, but that's clearly the most important tourney on the list, because he hasn't played that many anyway):

Look up how Elias Pettersson performed at his first WJC, 6 games, one assist. Vinny Lecavalier only had a goal and an assist in 7 games. Didn’t seem to hurt his draft position.

Familiar with Eric Staal? Apparently he wasn’t even good enough to be a part of Canada’s WJC team in 2003, yet somehow he turned out to be the highest scoring player from the 2003 draft.
Staal Released From World Junior Camp – Ontario Hockey League

I can keep going...
 

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