C Quinton Byfield (2020, 2nd, LAK) part IV

[Raccoon Jesus]

Unfortunately the Kings only have ~3-1/2 decent wingers, so you can't really spread them around or you might end up with 3 mediocre lines instead of 2 decent lines plus one horrific one.

The last time you posted stats, it showed that Byfield + Brown was a ~55-60% CF duo. Curious as to the updated stats on that, as that would indicate that they are at least marginally effective together.

Finally, as the TNT crew pointed out last night, QB is in a perfect spot because he doesn't need to match up against the opponents Top 6. While his own wingers may be less than ideal, they should still have a talent advantage over the oppositions 3rd line. Would you rather have QB match up against tougher opponents or would you rather have him play lesser opponents at the expense of better wingers? Its really not clear cut to me.

They're about the same. QB and Brown alone aren't an issue, its' when you add AA that it becomes a three ring circus, because neither guy can handle defensive thoughts.

When it was QB and Brown being successful the third man was Grundstrom--who is arguably the King getting MOST screwed by this year's situations, he should be a full-time guy on the third line, and those three were very effective together, mostly because Grundstrom is a responsible, smart checker who can help QB with forechecking/backchecking responsibilities while Brown cruises around as nimbly as the Titanic.

I absolutely guarantee you see a completely 'different' Byfield with no AA on his line, the stats and eye test back that up. He shouldn't be tasked with covering for two guys at this stage in his career, particularly two who even our Selke guys get dragged down by.

Whether he's ready or not is a different conversation, imo. But if this, including no PP time, is his continued deployment, then yeah PLEASE send him down.

Personally I think his development in the NHL would be just fine, he's 19 and going to make mistakes, you want him to make those and learn from them, but right now his mistakes turn into total cataclysms due to his linemates' irresponsibility. You expect that from a 19 year old, not a 37-year-old 20 year vet and a 27-year-old journeyman whose offense doesn't cover his lack of awareness.

 

[bsu]

They're about the same. QB and Brown alone aren't an issue, its' when you add AA that it becomes a three ring circus, because neither guy can handle defensive thoughts.

When it was QB and Brown being successful the third man was Grundstrom--who is arguably the King getting MOST screwed by this year's situations, he should be a full-time guy on the third line, and those three were very effective together, mostly because Grundstrom is a responsible, smart checker who can help QB with forechecking/backchecking responsibilities while Brown cruises around as nimbly as the Titanic.

I absolutely guarantee you see a completely 'different' Byfield with no AA on his line, the stats and eye test back that up. He shouldn't be tasked with covering for two guys at this stage in his career, particularly two who even our Selke guys get dragged down by.

Whether he's ready or not is a different conversation, imo. But if this, including no PP time, is his continued deployment, then yeah PLEASE send him down.

Personally I think his development in the NHL would be just fine, he's 19 and going to make mistakes, you want him to make those and learn from them, but right now his mistakes turn into total cataclysms due to his linemates' irresponsibility. You expect that from a 19 year old, not a 37-year-old 20 year vet and a 27-year-old journeyman whose offense doesn't cover his lack of awareness.

I think it's pretty clear he's not ready right now, no need to rush him just because he was the #2 pick. He has 1 point. He shows flashes (mainly with his physical traits) but every prospect does.

 

[Osprey]

He looks VERY ready when not played with Brown and AA.

Again, 34 minutes of ice time away from those two players is hardly a good enough sample size to say that a player is ready for the NHL, much less "VERY ready."

The last time you posted stats, it showed that Byfield + Brown was a ~55-60% CF duo. Curious as to the updated stats on that, as that would indicate that they are at least marginally effective together.

I pointed that out last time, yet he continues to call Brown an "anchor" and a "piano" that Byfield has to carry while now leaving out the stats that suggest otherwise.

Finally, as the TNT crew pointed out last night, QB is in a perfect spot because he doesn't need to match up against the opponents Top 6. While his own wingers may be less than ideal, they should still have a talent advantage over the oppositions 3rd line. Would you rather have QB match up against tougher opponents or would you rather have him play lesser opponents at the expense of better wingers? Its really not clear cut to me.

Exactly. Brown and Athanasiou are actually pretty solid for 3rd-line wingers. It wasn't so long ago that they were 2nd liners and Byfield would've been playing with a couple of inexperienced players on the 3rd line. Playing with two solid veteran players against the other teams' 3rd lines is actually a pretty good spot for Byfield. In spite of that, he's not producing, and that's a concern, but treating him as if he's the next "Jesus" and acting like his issues are all external (linemates, coaching, etc.), instead of internal (inexperience, not using his tools, etc.), is wishful thinking and not helpful.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Exactly. Brown and Athanasiou are actually pretty solid for 3rd-line wingers. It wasn't so long ago that they were 2nd liners and Byfield would've been playing with a couple of inexperienced players on the 3rd line. Playing with two solid veteran players against the other teams' 3rd lines is actually a pretty good spot for Byfield. In spite of that, he's not producing, and that's a concern, but treating him as if he's the next "Jesus" and acting like his issues are all external (linemates, coaching, etc.), instead of internal (inexperience, not using his tools, etc.), isn't helpful.

They're both a drag on every line on the team, brown much less so, but still a terrible recipe together, which is the issue. Imagine defending Dustin Brown and Andreas Athanasiou so you can trash Byfield. Just an all around stupid ass hill to die on.

No one is complaining about 3rd line competition.

No one is acting like all his issues are external. Only that it's hard to diagnose how much is up to him. Like I said, you expect mistakes from a 19 year old. You should have the luxury of not expecting constant stupid mistakes from a 27 and 37 year old compounding issues in his development. And this isn't exclusive to Byfield, either, this has happened to every rookie on the Kings this year--Vilardi, Turcotte, Kupari, all have experienced nearly the exact same phenomena--playing very well then suddenly having minutes cut and placed with slugs before a performance dip and being sent down.

Nothing I'm saying is as controversial as you want to make it and you can stop with the putting words in my mouth as usual.

 

[bsu]

If Byfield was drafted in the 2nd round would you want him playing in the NHL right now? Answer is no which goes to show he should be in the AHL. Byfield actually lucked out with the whole AHL junior covid agreement I'm surprised the kings aren't taking advantage.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

If Byfield was drafted in the 2nd round would you want him playing in the NHL right now? Answer is no which goes to show he should be in the AHL. Byfield actually lucked out with the whole AHL junior covid agreement I'm surprised the kings aren't taking advantage.

There's not a lot they re doing with the prospects that makes sense.

They actually seemed to suggest the AHL was giving him bad habits, though.

I'm open minded and not convinced either way. I'd like to see him with AT LEAST Grundstrom/Brown before dumping him again

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Not as high of a draft pick but Logan Brown comes to mind.

Brown is not nearly as mobile as Byfield

Byfield's issue is he doesn't know how to use his tools yet. It's understandable. In juniors he could get by because he was so much bigger than the average competition. But that approach isn't as effective against grown men. It's far bigger than who his NHL linemates are. He was just okay in the AHL, too. He's still really young. Send him back to the AHL, let him learn how to apply his tools cohesively against men, and let him start to dominate. Then bring him back. He's not ready for the NHL and that's okay. Prospect development isn't a race.

He had a problem with controlling gaps vs defenders and being able to slow plays down in the OHL. Definitely a development opportunity for him and something he needs to learn. Can't just skate past everyone like he did in junior.

 

[Akrapovince]

I see more compete wise from QB than I’ve ever seen from Logan Brown to be completely honest.

within my parameters Brown is a great answer, but I see 1C kopi potentially like I’ve never saw in brown.

 

[bsu]

Brown is not nearly as mobile as Byfield


He had a problem with controlling gaps vs defenders and being able to slow plays down in the OHL. Definitely a development opportunity for him and something he needs to learn. Can't just skate past everyone like he did in junior.

A lot of Byfields goals remind me a lot of these....



Of course Byfield is a much better prospect than Etem was, just stating they played similar bigger, faster, stronger than most other kids and able to just skate by and score.

(I know a lot about Etem because I'm from the same city and now that he's back I play with him and coach some of the kids on the junior team he owns now.) He was rushed by Anaheim and never developed his offensive game at all just all north/south.... and some very very bad knee injuries.

I said all this before the draft (before he was even drafted from Los Angeles) and thought he would need more time in juniors to develop best not knowing AHL would be an option for him with the new policy for covid.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I see more compete wise from QB than I’ve ever seen from Logan Brown to be completely honest.

within my parameters Brown is a great answer, but I see 1C kopi potentially like I’ve never saw in brown.

I don't think the Logan Brown comparison is really very good at all. Brown plays a very cerebral, patient game. Byfield plays with a lot more pace.

The only similarity is that they are both big and have good puck skills.

This might be an odd comparison, but Byfield reminds me a of a Taylor Hall / Jordan Staal hybrid.

 

[bsu]

PS. he needs to use a longer stick, ffs looks like he's slouched over and using a mini stick.

 

[Akrapovince]

I don't think the Logan Brown comparison is really very good at all. Brown plays a very cerebral, patient game. Byfield plays with a lot more pace.

The only similarity is that they are both big and have good puck skills.

This might be an odd comparison, but Byfield reminds me a of a Taylor Hall / Jordan Staal hybrid.

I guess you’re right, it’s just very hard to overlook that combination of size, skill and hands. Obviously like I said, I think the difference in pace, intensity and compete is what separates Qb from a 1st line all around forward to a Brown in a fringe NHL player.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I see the similarities, but I hope for LA fans sake that Byfield becomes MUCH better than that bust.

Of course. Brown was just the first player/prospect I thought of. Viktor Kozlov is a another guy.

 

[tomd]

Of course. Brown was just the first player/prospect I thought of. Viktor Kozlov is a another guy.

Kozlov is a pretty good comp...

 

[Osprey]

They're both a drag on every line on the team, brown much less so, but still a terrible recipe together, which is the issue. Imagine defending Dustin Brown and Andreas Athanasiou so you can trash Byfield. Just an all around stupid ass hill to die on.

No one is complaining about 3rd line competition.

No one is acting like all his issues are external. Only that it's hard to diagnose how much is up to him. Like I said, you expect mistakes from a 19 year old. You should have the luxury of not expecting constant stupid mistakes from a 27 and 37 year old compounding issues in his development. And this isn't exclusive to Byfield, either, this has happened to every rookie on the Kings this year--Vilardi, Turcotte, Kupari, all have experienced nearly the exact same phenomena--playing very well then suddenly having minutes cut and placed with slugs before a performance dip and being sent down.

Nothing I'm saying is as controversial as you want to make it and you can stop with the putting words in my mouth as usual.

What you're saying isn't controversial, just a little dubious, IMO. You keep suggesting that Brown is a burden on Byfield, even though the stats don't really support it. You're trashing Brown and Athanasiou and interpreting defending him as trashing Byfield. You say that it's hard to determine how much is up to him, but your endless complaining about his linemates and coach suggests that you've decided that they're holding him back and it's not really up to him. I imagine that that's why you're so frustrated.

I can relate. I just think that you're overdoing it and putting too much of the blame on the linemates and coach. I'm not a fan of any of them, either, but I'm not convinced that different ones would make much difference here. I think that he's struggling a bit because he's just really raw and needs a lot of time to develop. The idea that he'll blossom ala 19-year-old Kopitar if given better linemates and usage seems like wishful thinking and denial to me. I think that he's further way from being an impact player than any of us care to admit. He'll probably get there, but it'll require patience.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

What you're saying isn't controversial, just a little dubious, IMO. You keep suggesting that Brown is a burden on Byfield, even though the stats don't really support it. You're trashing Brown and Athanasiou and interpreting defending him as trashing Byfield. You say that it's hard to determine how much is up to him, but your endless complaining about his linemates and coach suggests that you've decided that they're holding him back and it's not really up to him. I imagine that that's why you're so frustrated.

I can relate. I just think that you're overdoing it and putting too much of the blame on the linemates and coach. I'm not a fan of any of them, either, but I'm not convinced that different ones would make much difference here. I think that he's struggling a bit because he's just really raw and needs a lot of time to develop. The idea that he'll blossom ala 19-year-old Kopitar if given better linemates and usage seems like wishful thinking and denial to me. I think that he's further way from being an impact player than any of us care to admit. He'll probably get there, but it'll require patience.

Dude. In posts you quoted from me i quite literally said, word for word, "QB and Brown alone aren't an issue" and "They're [AA and Brown] both a drag on every line on the team, brown much less so, but still a terrible recipe together."

Grundstrom-Byfield-Brown was strong. Brown himself is a concern anywhere in the lineup, but he's workable. AA is not workable pretty much anywhere in the lineup at this time. AA AND brown together? Unmitigated tire fire for ANY C on the team, not just Byfield, and tasking him with babysitting those two loons is a recipe for disaster for all of them. Not even Philip Danault was able to make AA this year.

All I'm saying is, yeah, small sample sizes all around, but Byfield looks like a completely different player away from those two, particularly AA. He has plenty to learn and it's debatable whether he should be up or not right now. But it's impossible to get a read on that with these two. I'm just suggesting let's see a change there before we get a read, because he was making mistakes but showing growth pre-AA; now he's making mistakes and they're compounded. Give him a chance with literally ANYONE else and you'll see different results, guaranteed.

 

[Osprey]

Dude. In posts you quoted from me i quite literally said, word for word, "QB and Brown alone aren't an issue" and "They're [AA and Brown] both a drag on every line on the team, brown much less so, but still a terrible recipe together."

Dude. My point is that it's contradictory. You say that Byfield and Brown, together, aren't an issue, but then suggest that Brown is dragging down Byfield's line (even if much less than Athanasiou). You've also called Brown a "piano" and an "anchor" that Byfield is carrying around the ice, which doesn't jive with "QB and Brown alone aren't an issue," either. You've made it rather clear that Brown is at least part of the issue, but when I hold you to that, you point out that you also said the opposite. I can't win an argument with you when you argue both sides.

All I'm saying is, yeah, small sample sizes all around, but Byfield looks like a completely different player away from those two, particularly AA. He has plenty to learn and it's debatable whether he should be up or not right now. But it's impossible to get a read on that with these two. I'm just suggesting let's see a change there before we get a read, because he was making mistakes but showing growth pre-AA; now he's making mistakes and they're compounded. Give him a chance with literally ANYONE else and you'll see different results, guaranteed.

I think that the other sample sizes are too small to be jumping to those conclusions. I do agree that we can probably say at this point that this line isn't working and that it may be worth trying other combinations, though.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Dude. My point is that it's contradictory. You say that Byfield and Brown, together, aren't an issue, but then suggest that Brown is dragging down Byfield's line (even if much less than Athanasiou). You've also called Brown a "piano" and an "anchor" that Byfield is carrying around the ice, which doesn't jive with "QB and Brown alone aren't an issue," either. You've made it rather clear that Brown is at least part of the issue, but when I hold you to that, you point out that you also said the opposite. I can't win an argument with you when you argue both sides.


I think that the other sample sizes are too small to be jumping to those conclusions. I do agree that we can probably say at this point that this line isn't working and that it may be worth trying other combinations, though.

Let me clarify then--
Dustin Brown drags down every line he is on;
Andreas Athanasiou MASSIVELY drags down every line he is on;
Dustin Brown hurts Byfield, but JUST the Brown-Byfield combo isn't so bad, and the numbers reflect that, so long as they have a competent 3rd linemate (commonly Grundstrom);
Andreas Athanasiou MASSIVELY hurts Byfield;
Putting Brown AND AA with Byfield is a seriously crippling combination for ANYONE on the roster (hence the 'two pianos') and putting them with a rookie like QB means you don't even get to see which struggles are 'his' alone vs. which struggles are severely caused by Brown/AA.

I hesitate to call QB 'not ready' when he's stuck with two vets who cause so many problems on their own. I can't count how many times QB has gone back to dig a puck, hit Brown in the blade with it only for it to go right thru him, rinse, repeat. And I don't think AA has ever received a pass in the Kings' zone so. And all three of those in the defensive end? QB has good instincts but there's only so much you can do. If AA can make Danault and Kopitar look like they've never played defense before, it's no surprise what they're also burdening on QB.

Ultimately yes he has his own issues to sort out but he may as well be out there solo with two d-men right now. Hopefully we'll at least see a different line combo tonight because this is bad for everyone except the opposition.

 

[bsu]

Let me clarify then--
Dustin Brown drags down every line he is on;
Andreas Athanasiou MASSIVELY drags down every line he is on;
Dustin Brown hurts Byfield, but JUST the Brown-Byfield combo isn't so bad, and the numbers reflect that, so long as they have a competent 3rd linemate (commonly Grundstrom);
Andreas Athanasiou MASSIVELY hurts Byfield;
Putting Brown AND AA with Byfield is a seriously crippling combination for ANYONE on the roster (hence the 'two pianos') and putting them with a rookie like QB means you don't even get to see which struggles are 'his' alone vs. which struggles are severely caused by Brown/AA.

I hesitate to call QB 'not ready' when he's stuck with two vets who cause so many problems on their own. I can't count how many times QB has gone back to dig a puck, hit Brown in the blade with it only for it to go right thru him, rinse, repeat. And I don't think AA has ever received a pass in the Kings' zone so. And all three of those in the defensive end? QB has good instincts but there's only so much you can do. If AA can make Danault and Kopitar look like they've never played defense before, it's no surprise what they're also burdening on QB.

Ultimately yes he has his own issues to sort out but he may as well be out there solo with two d-men right now. Hopefully we'll at least see a different line combo tonight because this is bad for everyone except the opposition.

Are you saying it's browns fault that Byfield has 1 point? Why would they move up a player that obviously isn't ready and has 1 point on the season... They are fighting for a playoff spot that sounds idiotic. If there's no room for him in top 6 then the best route would be to send him to the AHL. He's so lucky he has that option because usually It's NHL or Juniors.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Let me clarify then--
Dustin Brown drags down every line he is on;
Andreas Athanasiou MASSIVELY drags down every line he is on;
Dustin Brown hurts Byfield, but JUST the Brown-Byfield combo isn't so bad, and the numbers reflect that, so long as they have a competent 3rd linemate (commonly Grundstrom);
Andreas Athanasiou MASSIVELY hurts Byfield;
Putting Brown AND AA with Byfield is a seriously crippling combination for ANYONE on the roster (hence the 'two pianos') and putting them with a rookie like QB means you don't even get to see which struggles are 'his' alone vs. which struggles are severely caused by Brown/AA.

I hesitate to call QB 'not ready' when he's stuck with two vets who cause so many problems on their own. I can't count how many times QB has gone back to dig a puck, hit Brown in the blade with it only for it to go right thru him, rinse, repeat. And I don't think AA has ever received a pass in the Kings' zone so. And all three of those in the defensive end? QB has good instincts but there's only so much you can do. If AA can make Danault and Kopitar look like they've never played defense before, it's no surprise what they're also burdening on QB.

Ultimately yes he has his own issues to sort out but he may as well be out there solo with two d-men right now. Hopefully we'll at least see a different line combo tonight because this is bad for everyone except the opposition.

Is Dustin Brown 2020 Justin Abdelkader level bad?

And is AA cherry picking at the red line all game?

 

[tomd]

Byfield reminds me of the forward version of K'Andre Miller...lots of tools but also a lot of uncertainty as to whether either player will ever put it all together.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Are you saying it's browns fault that Byfield has 1 point? Why would they move up a player that obviously isn't ready and has 1 point on the season... They are fighting for a playoff spot that sounds idiotic. If there's no room for him in top 6 then the best route would be to send him to the AHL. He's so lucky he has that option because usually It's NHL or Juniors.

Honestly I don't think you can even address the production until you can address them getting across the redline.

no that's not Brown's 'fault' but it's pretty clear Byfield was much, much more effective and closer to putting things together when he didn't have these burdens.

But I generally agree, I'm not opposed to him being 3C, but they're also not giving him PP time and such, so if they're just intent on keeping Brown and AA in, I'd prefer QB in the AHL.

Is Dustin Brown 2020 Justin Abdelkader level bad?

And is AA cherry picking at the red line all game?

I don't remember 2020 Abdelkader. But Brown is barely a servicable NHLer at this point. He should be the 13th forward.

AA is what he's always been, a guy who can score but can't outscore his problems and is otherwise arguably one of the worst defensive players/liabilities in the league. He has never learned how to use his teammates and/or play a team game. Crazy individual skill and instant offense but 'good player on a bad team' forever at this point.

Putting them with a rookie who is raw and struggling to put it all together means all three of them are hurting.

 

[Akrapovince]

Honestly I don't think you can even address the production until you can address them getting across the redline.

no that's not Brown's 'fault' but it's pretty clear Byfield was much, much more effective and closer to putting things together when he didn't have these burdens.

But I generally agree, I'm not opposed to him being 3C, but they're also not giving him PP time and such, so if they're just intent on keeping Brown and AA in, I'd prefer QB in the AHL.




I don't remember 2020 Abdelkader. But Brown is barely a servicable NHLer at this point. He should be the 13th forward.

AA is what he's always been, a guy who can score but can't outscore his problems and is otherwise arguably one of the worst defensive players/liabilities in the league. He has never learned how to use his teammates and/or play a team game. Crazy individual skill and instant offense but 'good player on a bad team' forever at this point.

Putting them with a rookie who is raw and struggling to put it all together means all three of them are hurting.

Is QB even getting reps on PP2?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Is QB even getting reps on PP2?

Nope! None at all, while Brown schlubs away on PP1 and AA sometimes on PP2.

It gets better, even in the minors, Turcotte doesn't get PP time.

Don't get me started

 

[Herby]

Byfield looks to be falling victim to a bigger problem.

The Kings have problems with either evaluation, development and/or deployment of young scoring forwards, somewhere a long the line something is not working, one of the links in the chain is broken. There is just something amiss with the entire process. Since the management change in 2017 the Kings have drafted 8 forwards in the first 2 rounds. As of now 1 of those guys can be called an NHL player (Kaliyev) with another Byfield on the NHL roster but really struggling with confidence and the speed of the game and being deployed questionably. Vilardi, JAD, Kupari, Turcotte, Fagemo, Kaliyev and Byfield have all played in the NHL but no one has been able to really look the part and stick other than Kaliyev. The Kings have done an excellent job the last few years getting young defenseman in a position to succeed at the NHL level with Durzi, Bjornfot and Anderson all overachieving from expectation to be solid contributors on the backend. The opposite is true of basically every young Kings forward with the exception of Kaliyev (although it could be argued he should be deployed more). The Kings best forwards have for the most part been guys either brought in from other teams or signed as un-drafted college FA's who immediately were NHL'ers.

The Kings brought in Bergevin as another voice in the management room, I would like to see someone brought in as another voice for the development team, someone with experience developing young scoring forwards, something just has to change.