C Dylan Larkin (2014, 15th, DET)
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Gaudreau still hasn't proven anything in the Olympics. I don't understand all the hype.
Heraldic
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- Dec 12, 2013
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Had a lot better game against Tampa than against Carolina. The pass was a good one. Sure, the defense didn't do much (didn't pressure Larkin NOR didn't cover Zetterberg). But it still was a good play.
And I really have to mention the change in the narrative.
Before the season started there was this narrative him being a future Toews/Kopitar center. When I said that it is not what Larkin really is, he is not that kind of offensive player at all - he is a high motor, straightforward guy. Many Wings fans told me how I don't have any clue what I'm talking about.
Now when Wings fans actually have watched him (which many of them clearly hadn't done before the season, some most likely had, and they most likely weren't the ones making these pretty off comparisons), no one really says he's similar to Toews/Kopitar (because you really have to be unfamiliar to hockey to think so).
It's interesting to see how he ends up being when it's time for him to carry his line against tougher competition. Luckily, there's no hurry for that because Zeta still is and most likely will be at least couple of year capable of carriyng the burden. So there's time to groom.
Larkin being sent down to AHL at this point would be close to lunacy, and I don't think that the risk of losing a tweener like Andersson/Ferraro should have any weight in that decision.
And I really have to mention the change in the narrative.
Before the season started there was this narrative him being a future Toews/Kopitar center. When I said that it is not what Larkin really is, he is not that kind of offensive player at all - he is a high motor, straightforward guy. Many Wings fans told me how I don't have any clue what I'm talking about.
Now when Wings fans actually have watched him (which many of them clearly hadn't done before the season, some most likely had, and they most likely weren't the ones making these pretty off comparisons), no one really says he's similar to Toews/Kopitar (because you really have to be unfamiliar to hockey to think so).
It's interesting to see how he ends up being when it's time for him to carry his line against tougher competition. Luckily, there's no hurry for that because Zeta still is and most likely will be at least couple of year capable of carriyng the burden. So there's time to groom.
Larkin being sent down to AHL at this point would be close to lunacy, and I don't think that the risk of losing a tweener like Andersson/Ferraro should have any weight in that decision.
That's weird, because high motor and straightforward is pretty much how I'd describe Toews' game. Maybe I'd add "two-way", but that's pretty much it. He's never struck me as a flashy finesse player. I don't think Kopitar is that kind of guy either.
Not that I think Toews (or Kopitar) is the best comparison, but I think you're really downplaying Larkin's skill level. Unduly so. You don't produce offense against top pairing defensemen through hard work alone. Guys like Glendening are a testament to that. And this point should be extra strong because Larkin is a rookie, and he's got lots to learn.
Is Larkin a flashy player? Maybe not. But if he produces lots of points, who cares? There's no style award. As the saying goes: they don't ask how, they ask how many.
Not that I think Toews (or Kopitar) is the best comparison, but I think you're really downplaying Larkin's skill level. Unduly so. You don't produce offense against top pairing defensemen through hard work alone. Guys like Glendening are a testament to that. And this point should be extra strong because Larkin is a rookie, and he's got lots to learn.
Is Larkin a flashy player? Maybe not. But if he produces lots of points, who cares? There's no style award. As the saying goes: they don't ask how, they ask how many.
obey86
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I think the Kopitar/Toews comparisons were more about Larkin being a 2 way center (good offensively and defensively) like those guys more so than anything stylistically. At least that's how I always saw the comparison.
Heraldic
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It might be. But when I brought up the reasons why I don't see him comparable with those guys, I specifically said that Larkin doesn't seem to be able or he doesn't prefer to try to control the pace of the game, slow the game when it needs to be slowed, elevate the pace when needed etc. And I was still told being clueless...
Larkin doesn't have to ever develop that kind of skill or ability to be a great player. But to be a legitimate, complete franchise center without that skill/ability is really hard. I think that those guys absolutely are expected not only to carry their line offensively when needed - but also carry their whole team. That's something I don't see in Larkin - yet. He's young and has time to add dimension or another to his game, sure. But if he doesn't, he has really hard time becoming a true franchise center IMO.
The thing I described is perhaps the biggest reason I don't think that Bergeron can be called a legitimate franchise center. He is a beast defensively and he is not bad offensively either - he is good offensively as well. But he just don't have that ability nor is he able to carry his line or team offensively.
The Gaudreau threads in this subforum are an absolute joy to reread now. (And the threads about him that are piling up now will no doubt be equally enjoyable next season.) Larkin is getting nowhere near the same amount of hate... yet. But his detractors are following the same pattern of constantly moving the goalposts and if he keeps playing so well, he too may make many of them look like fools in a year or two.
I really like his calmness and ability to make himself useful. And the Wings are the best place for him to develop these qualities further.
No narrative change from what I've seen. Wings' fans still regularly compare him to Toews.
Out of curiosity, who would you say he best compares best to?
Mister Ed
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The Winter Soldier
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- Apr 4, 2011
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I love this kid Larkin. Here is what I posted on him before the draft. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=87026819&postcount=991
Believe he will be one of the best players in the entire 2014 draft. Off to a great start.
Believe he will be one of the best players in the entire 2014 draft. Off to a great start.
- Apr 27, 2005
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I've always seen a lot of Parise in him. Guy with a high motor that can make those patient plays as needed. Speed, skill, grit, and compete level. Gonna be a whale of a player.
Heraldic
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Toews sure has a an active, aggressive dimension in his game. But he still relies more on his positioning and with the puck he can either pace it up or slow it down. His first mind-set isn't getting the puck to the net, it's about how to make the best decision to build up the game - is it acting fast, slowing it down, carriyng the puck yourself in order to create space for others or carriyng the puck in order to make space for yourself.
Finesse players - even with a high motor - rarely are franchise players. Duchene and Ennis are really skilled, high motor guys, but they just don't have the ability to control the game.
It's not about skill level. It's about ability to affect the game big time. Let me elaborate a little.
The value of having a franchise players who can control the game and the pace is really big. For example, if your opponent is playing high tempo game and your team can't really keep up to it, having a player like that can distort opponent's game and slow the pace. That can help change the flow of the game. The same applies to opposite situation - the opponent is trying to slow the game down, your franchise player knows and can build the pace up in your advance. There's also couple of defensemen who can do it as well (Keith and Doughty to be named). And it's not a big surprise that teams having not only one, but two players like that have been winning cups lately.
For example if you watch Eichel, you can see that he sure has the ability to slow the game down and build up the pace. He can control it pretty well. But for now it has been situational only. For example against Tampa, which wasn't a rocker game from him, the game tempo was really high. Despite Sabres doing a decent job on that game, the pace was too high for Sabres most of the time. Eichel didn't really try to slow the game down as he should have tried, he instead tried to go with the speed of the game. Not that he couldn't keep up with it (can't say the same for many fellow Sabres), but it didn't really matter when Sabres as a team couldn't keep up with it. You can get a ton more out of your teammates if they can play the game by the speed they are capable of. If they don't, it really doesn't matter are you yourself capable of doing it.
But I don't really hold it against Eichel, it was his third game in the league and there really is only about a dozen of players who can dictate the game like that. And I don't remember any of those guys doing it on their rookie season.
If we're actually talking about franchise players and having potential to be one, just producing points doesn't really tell much.
Okay, haven't seen the comparison here for some time.
I honestly think that this Toews-comparison is purely a result of comparing their both NCAA points the season after their draft year. Toews wasn't similar player to Larkin in NCAA really (as far as i remember, which isn't a ton, though). Toews skating improved nicely after his NCAA career while Larkin has always had great wheels.
I'm not really comfortable to give any direct comparisons. But I can give few names who I think he is more similar stylistically.
I don't think he is stylistically a player like Duchene or Sequin. He isn't either a player like Toews, Kopitar, Getzlaf or Thornton.
He is more similar to players like Crosby, Bergeron, Backes, Kesler and Girgensons. Sure, you can find clear differences between those players and Larkin stylistically (because players tend to be individuals). And Crosby is IMO the only player of those who can clearly carry his team or line offensively (because he is pretty exceptional high-motor guy with good spoonful of grit and physicality). But he is not as good controlling the pace of the game as the best at it. You can see him doing it time to time, but usually he just tries to outspeed opponent no matter what the game in general looks like.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
"Controlling the pace of the game" seems to always be used in reference to guys that can slow the game down when they have control of the puck. From what Larkin has showed so far the game seems to go faster when he's on the ice. He is everywhere and chases down pucks, forechecks, pushes the pace and tilts the ice towards the offensive zone. If that's not 'controlling the pace' I don't know what is. It's not like he's unable to slow down and make those patient plays when that's the best option. You see that very clearly in both his assist on Abdelkader's goal against Toronto and Z's goal aganst Carolina.
Heraldic
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It's referred to slowing the game down more often (eventhough it means the opposite as well, as I mentioned), because it is in fact a lot more difficult to do. It's not as difficult to play high tempo in a game where the speed is generally low. Becuase generally all the other players are playing slower. But to slow it down yourself when all the other players are playing with high speed, that's a lot more difficult. You have to be able to thinka nd read the game a lot faster while you still have to be able to be more than reactive - you have to be exceptionally creative. More than often players just get drawn in to the game and rather react than anything else. It's not controlling the game.
Being able to react and act fast in specific situation has really little to do with what I'm talking about.
Evander Kane and Zemgus Girgensons usually do the same thing, but they have nothing to do with controlling the pace of the game.
I'm pretty baffled, to be honest. You guys have had Babcock as your coach (who did a great job in order to find the right pace systematically for the team. I'm still honestly really impressed what he did in the Tampa-series last year) for a decade and Datsyuk (who is really good at controlling the pace of the game) as your center even longer.
It's referred to slowing the game down more often (eventhough it means the opposite as well, as I mentioned), because it is in fact a lot more difficult to do. It's not as difficult to play high tempo in a game where the speed is generally low. Becuase generally all the other players are playing slower. But to slow it down yourself when all the other players are playing with high speed, that's a lot more difficult. You have to be able to thinka nd read the game a lot faster while you still have to be able to be more than reactive - you have to be exceptionally creative. More than often players just get drawn in to the game and rather react than anything else. It's not controlling the game.
Being able to react and act fast in specific situation has really little to do with what I'm talking about.
Evander Kane and Zemgus Girgensons usually do the same thing, but they have nothing to do with controlling the pace of the game.
I'm pretty baffled, to be honest. You guys have had Babcock as your coach (who did a great job in order to find the right pace systematically for the team. I'm still honestly really impressed what he did in the Tampa-series last year) for a decade and Datsyuk (who is really good at controlling the pace of the game) as your center even longer.
Toews is not exceptionally creative. He protects the puck well, he retrieves the puck well, and he makes the smart play 95% of the time. That's literally Larkin's game. Larkin doesn't have to play the game like Datsyuk to be a franchise player. Datsyuk never had the athletic abilities that Larkin has so he was forced to become an elite player through his skill and creativity. The Toews comparison isn't a perfect one, but no comparison really is. He plays the game very similiarly, especially with his board play. The way he steals pucks reminds he very much of Toews with the way he leans on players with his stick.
You can protect the puck with your body or by outskating your opponent. There isn't one single way to do it. I've seen Larkin carry the puck enough as a 19 year old playing through the first 3 games of his career to know that he has the potential to take over games. Larkin plays more like a Fedorov stylistically than anyone else, and he certainly could control the game and drive possession in his prime.
I'm not sure why you are acting like you've been vindicated by his first 3 games. I recall you saying that Larkin isn't good at driving possession or playmaking when that's literally all he's done.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
It's pretty difficult to play the game at the tempo Dylan Larkin does also. Tampa is not a slow-skating team. I kinda get what you're saying but I just think you're grasping at straws.It's referred to slowing the game down more often (eventhough it means the opposite as well, as I mentioned), because it is in fact a lot more difficult to do. It's not as difficult to play high tempo in a game where the speed is generally low. Becuase generally all the other players are playing slower. But to slow it down yourself when all the other players are playing with high speed, that's a lot more difficult. You have to be able to thinka nd read the game a lot faster while you still have to be able to be more than reactive - you have to be exceptionally creative. More than often players just get drawn in to the game and rather react than anything else. It's not controlling the game.
Being able to react and act fast in specific situation has really little to do with what I'm talking about.
Evander Kane and Zemgus Girgensons usually do the same thing, but they have nothing to do with controlling the pace of the game.
I'm pretty baffled, to be honest. You guys have had Babcock as your coach (who did a great job in order to find the right pace systematically for the team. I'm still honestly really impressed what he did in the Tampa-series last year) for a decade and Datsyuk (who is really good at controlling the pace of the game) as your center even longer.
A lot of players would play the game as fast as Larkin does.. if they could.
Toews is not as good at slowing the game down and controlling the pace of the game as Patrick Kane or Datsyuk. He still does okay. It's not like you need to be always slowing things down in order to be succesful. And slowing the other team down can be done in different ways. When Larkin is on the ice, the other team more often than not seem to get stuck in the defensive zone. They're not very fast when they're stuck there.
Heraldic
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I never said you need to be "exceptionally creative".
Because Datsyuk has the abilities required to control the game like decribed already. Athleticism has very little to do with it. Datsyuk being that player despite being not so talented athletic wise is more of an indication about athleticism having very little to do with it.
The Toews comparison isn't perfect... It's closer being bad than perfect, if you have ever watched both of them.
There really isn't so many ways to control and dictate the game like Toews/Kopitar type of players do. Yes, you can say that doing this or that is "taking over games", but then you're just talking about something else. Phil Kessel has the ability to "take over games". And Phil Kessel has nothing to do what I'm talking about here.
In a context of franchise player similar to Kopitar/Toews.... He creates possession the same way as Evander Kane. It's an asset, but has nothing to do what I have been talking about here.
Mark Edwards
@MarkEdwardsHP
Loved his game in his draft year which obviously led to us rankings him high. I've seen parts of two Red Wings games and he's showing off reasons why he belongs and why we ranked him high. Smart hockey player.
I don't think it's fair to criticize Larkin for not slowing the game down. He is 19 years old just starting his NHL career. It will take time for him to get more and more comfortable in the NHL, to the point where he is more willing to try and slow the pace of the game and understands different situations better. He has shown an aptitude for slowing the game down at lower levels, but for right now he is likely more comfortable just using his speed to impact the game and understanding that Zetterberg can slow the pace of the game on his line. I guess when there is nothing else to criticize bringing up one of, if not the, hardest things to do in the NHL is the only option left to scrutinize him.
Heraldic
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It's not about him not slowing the game (or even trying to) in NHL.
It's about him not doing it in NCAA either. And that's where we seem to disagree. For me his game has been pretty much similar in NCAA, WC and NHL (didn't really see a whole game in AHL, but don't think it was any different) - and that's the biggest reason he has adjusted so well and quick - he has been able to bring his game pretty some the same in NHL. More than often prospects need to adjust their game because they're not mature yet.
I really would appreciate you bringing some clips or anything else to support your view. Because I'm seriously really curious to see if he he has ever done something that I have never seen him doing.
And this is not about "just bringing up something negative because there isn't anything to criticize). My stance has been exactly the same from the moment I saw these "surefire franchise player" and "comparable to Toews/Kopitar" comments, which drew my attention. His games so far have just fortified and strengthened my original stance. My stance has never been that he is a bad player/prospect or anything like that.
wingsnut19
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- Apr 9, 2007
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Claiming that Larkin isn't a player to control the pace of a game at this point in his career isn't really a knock against him. Maybe at some point he will, maybe he won't. Saying that he hasn't shown that he is a franchise center isn't either. He has looked great so far and plays at a really high tempo, but right now he isn't going to carry a line at the NHL level, so it's a good thing that he isn't expected to.
I don't mind if he turns out to be Evander Kane rather than Toews.
I don't mind if he turns out to be Evander Kane rather than Toews.
Really? Because I'm pretty sure the entire Wings board minus you would be outraged if he turned into a 40-50 point player.
Maplebeasts
I See Demons!!!!!
I think it says a lot about the Red Wings drafting that the fanbase would be outraged by picking a two way #2c at 15th OA.
wingsnut19
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That's a pretty silly thing to be upset about.
Exactly. I'm not saying that Larkin has no potential to be better than Kane, but it wouldn't bother me if that is the type of player he becomes. Minus some of the locker room grumblings.
GoAwayDanCleary
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- Aug 6, 2012
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I'm sorry but not being able to "control the pace of the game" is such a lame analysis. What's the point of slowing down when you can fly around effortlessly creating chaos and scoring goals? His pace is very high tempo and it is extremely effective... ala Sydney Crosby or Tyler Johnson. He is an elite skater that uses every inch of ice you give him to his advantage. I would really like to hear why slowing the pace down is such a vital aspect to becoming a franchise player. He doesn't have to be just like Toews or Kopitar to develop into just as impactful of a player. It's worked for him at every level he's played at and it is looking pretty good in Detroit too.
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