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C Auston Matthews - ZSC Lions, NLA (2016 Draft) IV

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UsernameWasTaken said:
So has Bracco.



There is no reason to think that Matthews, as a 17 year old, would have challenged Eichel for the Hobey Baker. :shakehead
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why? I'm not saying he would have won, but he would be a finalist. If you can't agree with that, then we are far apart how we view Matthews
 
Okay everyone. Eichel was outscored by Matthews on the US team, yes. But his catapult to Tavares/Stamkos level prospect came in his predraft season in the NCAA, which was more impressive by eye and by NHL scoring equivalence than Matthews' draft season this year, which he went through months older than Eichel was during his. THAT is when Eichel separated himself a bit, and THAT is why he would have gone second had they been in the same draft.
 
stavs said:
why? I'm not saying he would have won, but he would be a finalist. If you can't agree with that, then we are far apart how we view Matthews
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Yes, you're are correct. Given you believe that after one season of NTDP Matthews would have challenged Eichel for the Hobey Baker we are 'far apart' on how we view him.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Okay everyone. Eichel was outscored by Matthews on the US team, yes. But his catapult to Tavares/Stamkos level prospect came in his predraft season in the NCAA, which was more impressive by eye and by NHL scoring equivalence than Matthews' draft season this year, which he went through months older than Eichel was during his. THAT is when Eichel separated himself a bit, and THAT is why he would have gone second had they been in the same draft.
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No, he entered the college season highly thought of, with people thinking he could challenge McDavid before McDavid blew up at the start of the season. And trying to compare NLA to NCAA is hard, one season isn't clearly better than the other. Matthews had the 2nd highest ppg of players who played 15 games and the highest gpg in the NLA. He's had better performances at most comparable tournaments at the same age. Also, they are both in the same tier along with Tavares, and Stamkos of recent centers at the top of the draft. Personally, I'll take Matthews more complete all around game over Eichels more dynamic skill set.
 
I suggest everyone go read the first Matthews thread from 2014. Matthews and Eichel were hand in hand the two best at the time. They obviously went different routes in where they played and Eichel was in leagues that can be judged more accurately. It's a pissing contest at this point and is irrelevant. Even if Eichel > Matthews long-term, Eichel is REALLY FREAKING GOOD so Matthews even being compared to him is amazing for us Leaf fans.
 
UsernameWasTaken said:
Yes, you're are correct. Given you believe that after one season of NTDP Matthews would have challenged Eichel for the Hobey Baker we are 'far apart' on how we view him.
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Matthews could have easily played in college last year if they would have let him and would have tore it up. he played against college teams in the USNDP and he did very well against them, well above PPG. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he would have somewhat comparable numbers to Eichel last year if he was in the NCAA as well. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
TheLeastOfTheBunch said:
Matthews has played against NCAA college teams as a 16/17 year old, that's a big part of USDP's success with developing players with that U-18 US team.

I'm not sure what Eichel's numbers were against NCAA teams as a 16/17 year old with the US U-18 team, but Matthews produced at about 1.3/1.4 PPG level against NCAA hockey teams in his pre-draft year. Eichel produced at a 1.78 clip in his draft year.

I find it funny how far one side you have gone regarding Matthews and Eichel in just a span of 3 months. That quote of yours I put above was after the WJCs, no less. C'mon TWS/Interactif
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I find it hard to understand you would find my position funny, not unless you have a persecution complex that I am being unfair to Matthews?

I posted when I read the constant narrative that Matthews has outproduced Eichel at every level. This is a deceptive statement IMO. A statement that needed to be challenged when both have not even shared the identical same path to the NHL nor has one even played in the NHL just yet.

I also challenged the assertion Matthews would have gone ahead of a 18 year old Hobey Baker winner in Eichel had he made the cut off of the 2015 draft where in addition 2 expert sources said he would likely not have. Now I have said if one wants to say they are in the same ball park as prospects, I will not diaagree. But he was never higher rated than Eichel nor has he outproduced him at every level.

Finally I will say this. Matthews is terrific prospect. He is going to be a great building block for either Winnipeg or Toronto. He is a center that all good teams could use. One of these teams will be very happy.
 
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Randall Flagg said:
Okay everyone. Eichel was outscored by Matthews on the US team, yes. But his catapult to Tavares/Stamkos level prospect came in his predraft season in the NCAA, which was more impressive by eye and by NHL scoring equivalence than Matthews' draft season this year, which he went through months older than Eichel was during his. THAT is when Eichel separated himself a bit, and THAT is why he would have gone second had they been in the same draft.
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Just not true.

Before Eichel's NCAA season started, the 2015 draft was already being called more and more as "McDavid or Eichel." More scouts had Eichel #1 over McDavid than where Laine stood compared to Auston in TSN's recent rankings.

And that's when McDavid was already being called a generational talent.

But - and you're going to have to trust me on this - it's not. At least not if the subject is who will go No. 1 overall in the 2015 NHL Draft: Connor McDavid or Jack Eichel.
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http://www.tsn.ca/mcdavid-leads-deep-class-in-tsn-s-pre-season-draft-ranking-1.91473
 
The Winter Soldier said:
I find it hard to understand you would find my position funny, not unless you have a persecution complex that I am being unfair to Matthews?

I posted when I read the constant narrative that Matthews has outproduced Eichel at every level. This is a deceptive statement IMO. A statement that needed to be challenged when both have not even shared the identical same path to the NHL nor has one even played in the NHL just yet.

I also challenged the assertion Matthews would have gone ahead of a 18 year old Hobey Baker winner in Eichel had he made the cut off of the 2015 draft where in addition 2 expert sources said he would likely not have. Now I have said if one wants to say they are in the same ball park as prospects, I will not diaagree. But he was never higher rated than Eichel nor has he outproduced him at every level.

Finally I will say this. Matthews is terrific prospect. He is going to be a great building block for either Winnipeg or Toronto. He is a center that all good teams could use. One of these teams will be very happy.
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No, the funny part of your current position is arguing against posters who assert Matthews would've gone ahead of Jack, when you yourself said, just 3 months ago, that it's not unreasonable to think Matthews would've gone #2 in the 2015 draft.

You don't see an issue there? If you don't, then it's far more likely you have some sort of a complex ;)
 
How scared should Leaf fans be that Matthews bolts in 7 years, even if TO is a consistent contender? Thats my biggest fear. If he was Canadian there wouldnt be that doubt.
 
Garthinater said:
Prove where bracco out preformed eichel lol
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If we are going to use the USDP samples.

Let's get the years and context correct.

Bracco outproduce Matthews by 1 point during the span of 2013-2015

Bracco only intersected Eichel for 1 year. So that can be viewed with a bit of a spockian eyebrow.

I do not believe Bracco is in the same class as Matthews or Eichel. I don't think anyone would disagree if we are solely using the points argument.

Eichel played from 2012-2014.

He outproduced Milano by 5 points during that span. The most of any player on those teams.

So while it is true Bracco had more points than Eichel, and 1 more than Matthews. We now know the entire picture when the Bracco had more points, or Matthews had more points, or Eichel had more points than Milano history.
 
TheLeastOfTheBunch said:
No, the funny part of your current position is arguing against posters who assert Matthews would've gone ahead of Jack, when you yourself said, just 3 months ago, that it's not unreasonable to think Matthews would've gone #2 in the 2015 draft.

You don't see an issue there? If you don't, then it's far more likely you have some sort of a complex ;)
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No I don't see the problem. In that thread I was making the point of the top of the 2016 draft was comparable than the 2015 draft. And I just posted, full disclosure, that if anyone wants to make a point that Matthews is in the same ballpark as Eichel, I would not take issue with this.

But it doesn't change the fact I believe Eichel would have gone ahead of Matthews if both were in the same draft last year. And again, unless posters here prove to me they are more in the know than Mckenzie and Seidel and other reputable sources. I am very comfortable in my position.
 
schenneuf said:
How scared should Leaf fans be that Matthews bolts in 7 years, even if TO is a consistent contender? Thats my biggest fear. If he was Canadian there wouldnt be that doubt.
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I wouldn't worry. Toronto is one of the most beautiful cities in North America. Marcus Stroman said he didn't want to come to Toronto when the Blue Jays drafted him because it was Canada and he didn't know anything about it. Now the guy reps Toronto everywhere he goes and even wrote a song dedicated to our city. Give Matthews some time, and you'll see he will love the city just like Stroman did. I don't understand why he would want to play for a lifeless market in Arizona anyways after he experiences what Toronto is like. It would be like going from the most passionate fanbase to one where barely no one gives a ****. He'll fit in fine with JVR, Gardiner, Carrick etc
 
The Winter Soldier said:
No I don't see the problem. In that thread I was making the point of the top of the 2016 draft was comparable than the 2015 draft. And I just posted, full disclosure, that if anyone wants to make a point that Matthews is in the same ballpark as Eichel, I would not take issue with this.

But it doesn't change the fact I believe Eichel would have gone ahead of Matthews if both were in the same draft last year. And again, unless posters here prove to me they are more in the know than Mckenzie and Seidel and other reputable sources. I am very comfortable in my position.
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Sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously considering how inconsistent you are. Another example from not so long ago:

The Winter Soldier said:
Top 3 for each draft year.

1. Mcdavid (there would be no disagreement)
2. Matthews (or Eichel)
3. Eichel (or Matthews)
4. Pujujarvi
5. Laine
6. Strome.
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Someone who had Auston going ahead not so long ago, however small the margin may be, shouldn't have a problem with another poster thinking the same. Now, they're in the same ballpark, I agree, but don't dig yourself in a deeper hole here.
 
schenneuf said:
How scared should Leaf fans be that Matthews bolts in 7 years, even if TO is a consistent contender? Thats my biggest fear. If he was Canadian there wouldnt be that doubt.
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We won't even need him because McDavid will be playing for us in 6 years. That's how this works, right?
 
TheLeastOfTheBunch said:
Sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously considering how inconsistent you are. Another example from not so long ago:



Someone who had Auston going ahead not so long ago, however small the margin may be, shouldn't have a problem with another poster thinking the same. Now, they're in the same ballpark, I agree, but don't dig yourself in a deeper hole here.
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Not sure what to tell you. The only hole I see here is you digging for something. And coming up empty.

It is just as I posted tonight. It was a reply to you so I am not sure how you missed it.

Now I have said if one wants to say they are in the same ball park as prospects, I will not diaagree.
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http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=117892553&postcount=111

The comment you decided to selectively cut and pasted here was in a thread about comparing the top of the 2015 and 2016 drafts, and the quality at the top. If you took Mcdavid out of it. The 2 drafts were comparable. That was the point. And as you just saw my post, if anyone wants to say Matthews and Eichel are in the same ball park, I would not disagree. But again, Matthews would have gone #3 last draft, not before Eichel.

It is perfectly consistent to as I have posted. There are no hidden messages or motives here. I hope I have satisfied your suspicions.

Now maybe we can get back to Matthews as he is the topic.
 
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