C Aleksander Barkov - Tampere Tappara, FEL (2013 Draft) - Part II

[Loffer]

Seems like you're back-pedalling pretty hard from your original position:

"All the signs of the greatest slump ever"
"After the first period no points for Barkov. It seems he and his line are struggling now after the hot start. Barkov may fall quite a bit if this ***** continues"
"James Van Riemsdyk could give some boost to Barkov who is slumping pretty badly rite now. If not, then Barov is doomed to fall in draft rankings."

First you talk about "all signs of the greatest slump ever," "doomed to fall in draft rankings," etc., but now you're saying that you'd project him to go roughly in the 3-6 range (3rd, or a few spots lower)? I would say that's where most Barkov fans are predicting he'll go, if he gets drafted somewhere around 3rd-6th that wouldn't represent any sort of "drop" at all.

As for "no chance to go top 2," it seems a bit early to say. I don't see him beating MacKinnon, but how are you so confident about Barkov vs. Jones? Who knows, maybe neither Barkov nor Jones will go top 2. Regardless, you make it seem like production would be the main thing hurting his chances, when his production has been phenomenal, and his year-end numbers will almost certainly be among the best ever for a 17 year old in the SM-Liiga. If there's anything that prevents him from going top 2, it'll be a lack of explosiveness in his game, a lack of really dynamic ability with the puck. Not that I think that's a major problem, it's reasonably common with big, high IQ centres (think Joe Thornton, Mats Sundin, Eric Staal, Mikko Koivu, etc.), but I would say that is the main strike against his game. It's definitely not production, which will be a big positive, not a negative.

Yes, I have pointed this out earlier. He is not explosive. Maybe scouts think it will hurt his game especially if they see the opposition can shut him down easily now when they are focusing on him.

But it's difficult to compare these top prospects. Let's wait for the WJC. (Barkov will be there if not injured and so will McKinnon. I don't know about the rest though...)

 

[thomast]

Yes, I have pointed this out earlier. He is not explosive. Maybe scouts think it will hurt his game especially if they see the opposition can shut him down easily now when they are focusing on him.

But it's difficult to compare these top prospects. Let's wait for the WJC. (Barkov will be there if not injured and so will McKinnon. I don't know about the rest though...)

Shut him down easily? He is playing against men at 17 year old without any high-end linemates. Normally an 17 year old doesen't need players to shut him down to be invisible Barkov has 2 men focusing on him in every game playing against experienced players. Any player from this draft would be easily shut down in FEL if there is 2 experienced pro players under their skin all the time without getting much support from the linemates. Even Mikael Granlund was shut down last year after dominant WCs and start of the season especially on playoffs with very high end linemates. Tappara has system which doesen't fit on Barkov. Very slow controlled attacks which mostly end up as opponent player getting the puck. Tapparas game has disappointed me big time. Barkov has 2 pointless game when his team has scored 2 goals and he was quite unlucky against saipa when his linemates wasn't able to score from open netters in that game too. Didn't watch game against TPS but i have that game archived and will watch soon. Some of the posters got blind because of his good start and numbers. Me myself are focusing his overall game and how he plays. I would be much more worried if he would score on the higher pace but his games would be average. He is playing on the high level despite having pointless games and that is the reason why i don't worry. If he is best player on his team in most of the games and plays on the high level in every zone that is more than enough for me. I would say that consistence is strength for Barkov. Difference between his bad and good game isn't big and i've seen only 1 major mistake in 14 games what i have seen. That is nothing but pure excellence. Too bad that his linemates are not as consistent.

 

[Loffer]

Tappara has system which doesen't fit on Barkov. Very slow controlled attacks which mostly end up as opponent player getting the puck.

You really seem to know your ****, thomast . So, could you elaborate this point. Why doesn't puck control system fit to Barkov?

 

[Leehh]

Shut him down easily? He is playing against men at 17 year old without any high-end linemates. Normally an 17 year old doesen't need players to shut him down to be invisible Barkov has 2 men focusing on him in every game playing against experienced players. Any player from this draft would be easily shut down in FEL if there is 2 experienced pro players under their skin all the time without getting much support from the linemates. Even Mikael Granlund was shut down last year after dominant WCs and start of the season especially on playoffs with very high end linemates. Tappara has system which doesen't fit on Barkov. Very slow controlled attacks which mostly end up as opponent player getting the puck. Tapparas game has disappointed me big time. Barkov has 2 pointless game when his team has scored 2 goals and he was quite unlucky against saipa when his linemates wasn't able to score from open netters in that game too. Didn't watch game against TPS but i have that game archived and will watch soon. Some of the posters got blind because of his good start and numbers. Me myself are focusing his overall game and how he plays. I would be much more worried if he would score on the higher pace but his games would be average. He is playing on the high level despite having pointless games and that is the reason why i don't worry. If he is best player on his team in most of the games and plays on the high level in every zone that is more than enough for me. I would say that consistence is strength for Barkov. Difference between his bad and good game isn't big and i've seen only 1 major mistake in 14 games what i have seen. That is nothing but pure excellence. Too bad that his linemates are not as consistent.

Some guys here doesn't understand the fact that he is playing against NHL regulars at the moment and still being able to dominate shift to shift. Few of my friends who living NA has taken a deeper look on Barkov says that he has all the tools to become next top-5 defensive centers in NHL.

I say it now: All eyes will be on Barkov after first U20 game and the hype goes way off the boards after that.

Funny fact: Last european player who had this many views from different scout's was Ovechkin.

 

[f1nn]

Some guys here doesn't understand the fact that he is playing against NHL regulars at the moment and still being able to dominate shift to shift. Few of my friends who living NA has taken a deeper look on Barkov says that he has all the tools to become next top-5 defensive centers in NHL.

I say it now: All eyes will be on Barkov after first U20 game and the hype goes way off the boards after that.

Funny fact: Last european player who had this many views from different scout's was Ovechkin.

I'm not doubting you just wondering where you heard this?

 

[Leehh]

I'm not doubting you just wondering where you heard this?

Friend who works for Canadiens as scout.

 

[Loffer]

Don't they play ever any more?! I mean Tappara. When is the next game (and someone give me a stream)? Just checked Sm-liiga site but it seems that Tappara won't be playing tonight. Edit: Now I found it. They play tomorrow.

 

[FinProspects]

I´m more than amazed how many people in this thread are feeding the troll.

 

[Loffer]

I´m more than amazed how many people in this thread are feeding the troll.

Just keep feeding your inner troll, Finprospect.

 

[Leehh]

I´m more than amazed how many people in this thread are feeding the troll.

So being straightforward and arrogant is being a troll for you? Makes sense.

 

[Circulartheory]

Look, I don't agree that way Loffler is approaching the subject with all these absolute statements, but underneath all that is a very good point. Barkov is doing a great job in the men's league, but teams (and me) want a player that can has the ability to take charge of the game and really explode.

Some statements out there is that Barkov doesn't have that dynamic trait to him. It makes me wonder if he is top 2 material. However, I would not go so far to say he will drop out of the top 10...

I really haven't seen him myself to make an educated comment, but I feel flaws are what separates players. We can all gush about everything young players do and make it sound like there are 10 franchise players in the 2013 draft, but in order to separate them, we really need to identify the problems.

EDIT: Nobody is perfect, and its those flaws that have several people are different places with prospects. Some people might not take a lack of size to be a huge factor, some do etc. etc.

 

[BusQuets]

Look, I don't agree that way Loffler is approaching the subject with all these absolute statements, but underneath all that is a very good point. Barkov is doing a great job in the men's league, but teams (and me) want a player that can has the ability to take charge of the game and really explode.

Some statements out there is that Barkov doesn't have that dynamic trait to him. It makes me wonder if he is top 2 material. However, I would not go so far to say he will drop out of the top 10...

I really haven't seen him myself to make an educated comment, but I feel flaws are what separates players. We can all gush about everything young players do and make it sound like there are 10 franchise players in the 2013 draft, but in order to separate them, we really need to identify the problems.

EDIT: Nobody is perfect, and its those flaws that have several people are different places with prospects. Some people might not take a lack of size to be a huge factor, some do etc. etc.

You have to remember that Barkov is playing against men. It is a hell of a lot harder to look explosive against men that it's against boys. Mackinnon in FEL wouldn't be so "explosive".

 

[thomast]

Look, I don't agree that way Loffler is approaching the subject with all these absolute statements, but underneath all that is a very good point. Barkov is doing a great job in the men's league, but teams (and me) want a player that can has the ability to take charge of the game and really explode.

Some statements out there is that Barkov doesn't have that dynamic trait to him. It makes me wonder if he is top 2 material. However, I would not go so far to say he will drop out of the top 10...

I really haven't seen him myself to make an educated comment, but I feel flaws are what separates players. We can all gush about everything young players do and make it sound like there are 10 franchise players in the 2013 draft, but in order to separate them, we really need to identify the problems.

EDIT: Nobody is perfect, and its those flaws that have several people are different places with prospects. Some people might not take a lack of size to be a huge factor, some do etc. etc.

Name an 17 year old who has been very explosive and all the time visible against men in top european league? Barkov can't take charge of the game? He is carrying his team on his shoulder right now at 17 and he has taken some games himself. He is heart and soul of that team and at times he is very hard to stop. He has shown that that he can be dominant player in the game but he is barely 17 and playing against men in the top european league filled with NHL players. Barkov is more visible and dominant offensively than Granlund in his post draft year in FEL at his 18-19 year old season. Not to forget that Barkovs two way game is much better in every possible way.

I'm currently watching Ristolainen and Mikko Koivu. Even Koivu can't dominate this league like he wants. Of course he has break from playing but he is an #1 center of his team and has alot of other NHL players on his team. Barkov has 5points in 2 games against the team that Mikko Koivu plays against now and has 2 goals (which he scored when i wrote this message) but have been quite invisible. Not stating that Barkov is better than Mikko Koivu right now or Mikko Koivu is in 100% shape but if Barkov is capable of doing it at age of 17 it is very impressive. Your statement are stupid if we take age and the level of game into discussion. He isn't playing against kids...

 

[Circulartheory]

Name an 17 year old who has been very explosive and all the time visible against men in top european league? Barkov can't take charge of the game? He is carrying his team on his shoulder right now at 17 and he has taken some games himself. He is heart and soul of that team and at times he is very hard to stop. He has shown that that he can be dominant player in the game but he is barely 17 and playing against men in the top european league filled with NHL players. Barkov is more visible and dominant offensively than Granlund in his post draft year in FEL at his 18-19 year old season. Not to forget that Barkovs two way game is much better in every possible way.

I'm currently watching Ristolainen and Mikko Koivu. Even Koivu can't dominate this league like he wants. Of course he has break from playing but he is an #1 center of his team and has alot of other NHL players on his team. Barkov has 5points in 2 games against the team that Mikko Koivu plays against now and has 2 goals (which he scored when i wrote this message) but have been quite invisible. Not stating that Barkov is better than Mikko Koivu right now or Mikko Koivu is in 100% shape but if Barkov is capable of doing it at age of 17 it is very impressive. Your statement are stupid if we take age and the level of game into discussion. He isn't playing against kids...

I think you are missing the point, and honestly, I am grouping you and Loffler in the same group as posters I try not to take too seriously because both of you are so adamant on your points, its hard to distinguish the reason from the emotion.

Look, I never said Barkov can't or won't, I will repeat for the third time, I haven't seen him play yet so I won't comment on his ability. I have Barkov at #3 on my personal rankings.

But can we please skip the "he's so great" talk. You are not the only one that knows how great this kid is. It is very obvious. What I am trying to do is to get you to start creating some meaningful conversation where we can identify his flaws.

We know he's big, we know he is ripping the men's league, we know he's super skilled. To me, all of that is not of interest because thats not where it gets interesting. What gets interesting is where can he improve...

So, again, if I can rifle through all the holy and doom talk, I find posters saying he isn't the best skater and that he lacks explosiveness. Is that correct?

EDIT: I apologize if I come off rude, but I'm really just frustrated not finding any reasonable talk about his flaws. It is all "he's amazing!" or "his stats will drop...". No prospect is perfect, Tavares had average skating, Hall played a reckless style, RNH was weak at the time, Yakupov wasn't physical enough and average defensively etc.

 

[YARR123]

I think you are missing the point, and honestly, I am grouping you and Loffler in the same group as posters I try not to take too seriously because both of you are so adamant on your points, its hard to distinguish the reason from the emotion.

Look, I never said Barkov can't or won't, I will repeat for the third time, I haven't seen him play yet so I won't comment on his ability. I have Barkov at #3 on my personal rankings.

But can we please skip the "he's so great" talk. You are not the only one that knows how great this kid is. It is very obvious. What I am trying to do is to get you to start creating some meaningful conversation where we can identify his flaws.

We know he's big, we know he is ripping the men's league, we know he's super skilled. To me, all of that is not of interest because thats not where it gets interesting. What gets interesting is where can he improve...

So, again, if I can rifle through all the holy and doom talk, I find posters saying he isn't the best skater and that he lacks explosiveness. Is that correct?

I have to say I agree with you a lot here. We need more reasonable conversation.

To answer your question, it's correct that he's not the best skater. However he's improved in that area by quite a bit from last year; his skating is actually quite smooth, it doesn't look edgy at all. He definately lacks explosiveness in his first few steps. Once he gets going he usually is pretty fast, but on the other hand he doesn't get to that speed very often because he very inoften uses his full speed.

I think the biggest problem (might not be a problem per se, but more of a playing style perhaps) is that he doesn't play a high velocity game. He doesn't play with a motor. It's perhaps something he can start incorporating into his game once he develops more physically, and also something that can maybe affected by a different, more active mindset. Thats not to say that he's passive, quite on the contrary, as he plays 2-ways very well. But what I would like to see from him more from time to time is more of a "killing" mindset. Kind of like what Mikko Koivu brings from time to time. If I could see that develop in Barkov I would be VERY pleased.

It might be that he's still got some teenaged shyness in him, idk.

 

[Loffer]

You really seem to know your ****, thomast . So, could you elaborate this point. Why doesn't puck control system fit to Barkov?

I didn't mean to come off rude, either. I mean you really know your s.h.i.t., meaning you know very well what you are talking about. So, what's wrong with Tappara's system? I think the team just lacks quality and it shows.

And when I said Barkov will slide, I just think he will slide for reasons stated above. Not that he wasn't as good as they say. But there are many names pushing to top5 and it's easy to drop out of it. It bugs me if he really drops significantly mainly because he just happens to play in a ****** team in a top league, in a nutshell.

 

[thomast]

I didn't mean to come off rude, either. I mean you really know your s.h.i.t., meaning you know very well what you are talking about. So, what's wrong with Tappara's system? I think the team just lacks quality and it shows.

And when I said Barkov will slide, I just think he will slide for reasons stated above. Not that he wasn't as good as people say. There are many names pushing to top5 and it's easy to drop out of it - and it bugs me if he really drops significantly just because he plays on such a high level already and not in juniors. So, I'm afraid he is facing a "big slump".

Tappara starts 99% of their attack with very slow controlled attack. Most of the teams have been playing trap against that. They rarely play through the center because there are no passing lanes. Most obvious result is defenseman throwing the puck from the neutral zone and players have to dig it from the corner. The problem is that opposite team players are most of the time first at the puck because they know the way the tappara opens the attack. We rarely see fast attacks, or semi-fast controlled attacks. When tappara are leading their game turns into very defensive minded which is stupid. They play "no risk" game. There have been so many games where Tappara have been leading then opposite teams come back and past.

So the answer is that Tappara plays too simple. Looks like that Rautakorpi has forced the players to do only slow controlled attacks with defensemen who doesen't have skill to pass only to throw the puck into end boards.

 

[Loffer]

Tappara starts 99% of their attack with very slow controlled attack. Most of the teams have been playing trap against that. They rarely play through the center because there are no passing lanes. Most obvious result is defenseman throwing the puck from the neutral zone and players have to dig it from the corner. The problem is that opposite team players are most of the time first at the puck because they know the way the tappara opens the attack. We rarely see fast attacks, or semi-fast controlled attacks. When tappara are leading their game turns into very defensive minded which is stupid. They play "no risk" game. There have been so many games where Tappara have been leading then opposite teams come back and past.

So the answer is that Tappara plays too simple. Looks like that Rautakorpi has forced the players to do only slow controlled attacks with defensemen who doesen't have skill to pass only to throw the puck into end boards.

I am no master of hockey tactics but that sounds a bit strange to me. I have thought that this kind of "keep it simple and stupid" game is more akin to fast pace north american style hockey, where you keep throwing puck into end board etc. And slow contolled game involves more passes between Dmen and so forth. Well, I am no coach. Idk.

 

[traffic cone]

Tappara starts 99% of their attack with very slow controlled attack.

No, they do not. I could go on all day educating people about hockey tactics, but this thread is about a single player so I won't do that. BUT you obviously don't have a clue when an attack actually starts. An attack starts when a team gets the puck from the other team either in the neutral zone or defensive zone. After that, it's the first pass the determines what kind of attack will it be.

Actually for a team to have even one third of their attacks controlled ones would already be high. So nope, Tappara doesn't start "99% of their attack with very slow controlled" ones. Not a single team in the world has even half of their attack controlled.

 

[thomast]

No, they do not. I could go on all day educating people about hockey tactics, but this thread is about a single player so I won't do that. BUT you obviously don't have a clue when an attack actually starts. An attack starts when a team gets the puck from the other team either in the neutral zone or defensive zone. After that, it's the first pass the determines what kind of attack will it be.

Actually for a team to have even one third of their attacks controlled ones would already be high. So nope, Tappara doesn't start "99% of their attack with very slow controlled" ones. Not a single team in the world has even half of their attack controlled.

Maybe i didn't mean exactly 99% of their starts. But i can tell you that Tappara have been starting most of their attacks with slow attacks. Maybe slow controlled attack was an wrong word to describe? I've been watching most of tapparas game this year.

http://keskustelu.jatkoaika.com/showthread.php?t=53520&page=3

Good debate about tappara fans frustrated about slow attacks and i fully agree with them.

 

[thomast]

I am no master of hockey tactics but that sounds a bit strange to me. I have thought that this kind of "keep it simple and stupid" game is more akin to fast pace north american style hockey, where you keep throwing puck into end board etc. And slow contolled game involves more passes between Dmen and so forth. Well, I am no coach. Idk.

Well you're right about that slow controlled game involves many pass between defenseman but when they actualy start to attack tappara defensemen seems only be throwing puck to the end boards because that they are facing 5 men trap in the neutral/defensive zone. Which end up as an throwing the puck into end boards.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

JVR - Barkov, future Leaf duo, playing on Tappara

 

[FinProspects]

So being straightforward and arrogant is being a troll for you? Makes sense.

Was not talking about you, brother.

 

[jarnov]

It's true there's been a setback in Barkov's game lately. I'm talking about overall performance here, not just points. The reason is obvious to anyone who's followed him closely: he is tired.

Take a look at his ice times:

					Barkov's time on ice
14.9	Ilves-Tappara	1-7	15.43
15.9	Tappara-KalPa	2-3	17.51
19.9	Tappara-Blues	3-4	18.41
22.9	Kärpät-Tappara	1-3	15.50
25.9	Tappara-JYP	2-3	18.55
27.9	Pelicans-Tappara	6-3	19.21
28.9	Tappara-Ilves	4-2	19.20
2.10	HIFK-Tappara	2-3	17.31
5.10	Tappara-Jokerit	3-5	18.26
6.10	KalPa-Tappara	6-2	17.55
10.10	Blues-Tappara	3-4	21.31
12.10	Ässät-Tappara	4-2	22.45
13.10	Tappara-Ässät	2-1	22.35
19.10	Tappara-SaiPa	1-2	22.42
20.10	TPS-Tappara	3-1	20.05

Here's some background. Tappara was one of pre-season favourites and Barkov was supposed to center third line. Tappara had difficult start to the season and only line that was consistently scoring and putting pressure to opponent's defence was Barkov's line. Team kept on underachieving and Barkov kept on scoring. Obviously coach decided to try to turn teams direction by giving loads of ice time to his hottest players. On 10th October against Blues Barkov's line got promoted to number one attacking unit which you can see directly from ice times above. He clocked huge minutes in three games in four days and has been noticeably tired since 12.10. in my eyes.

 

[kabbott50]

There's been so many posts and threads about this young man, that it's a little overwhelming. I'm sorry if this has been posted, but I just don't have time to read them all.

I was curious to know if Aleksander was ever selected in the CHL Import Draft. I haven't been able to find an answer anywhere on the 'net, which is leading me to believe he wasn't.

Just wanted to see if I could get some confirmation.

Thanks.