Buyers and Sellers

[dirty12]

I’m stating that Medvedev has been just as good overall when considering the strength of schedule. I’m stating that using an OA spot on Elliott who has done nothing to suggest he is a valued performer in the past for a team considered a viable contender. Giving him a 3rd shot on a viable contender with two previous bed shittings when it counted most while wasting an OA slot to do it isn’t what I consider solid management of assets.

With respect to Oster, he backstopped that team to the OHL Finals last year. Then the team that entered the Finals limped into that series. IT happens. BUT, OSTER GOT THE TEAM THERE. Elliott couldn’t get his team out of round two in his first chance losing three straight to start the 2nd round and then didn’t’ get an opportunity to do anything other than mop up some games last year because, well, he was shit previously and that team didn’t trust him…as did the rest of the league when he was waived through it.

But, hey, he has been great against teams that will be struggling to make the playoffs this year. That says something I guess.

Oster and his team were a f’ugly 1-7 after Punnet hurt himself. Oster is just an average solid starter, maybe the 5th best among the 6 remaining OA goalies.
Parsons was 3.77/0.877 in the playoffs last season, but because Elliot was just 2.95/0.887, London should move currently the perfect Elliot + for Parsons?

 

[OMG67]

Oster and his team were a f’ugly 1-7 after Punnet hurt himself. Oster is just an average solid starter, maybe the 5th best among the 6 remaining OA goalies.
Parsons was 3.77/0.877 in the playoffs last season, but because Elliot was just 2.95/0.887, London should move currently the perfect Elliot + for Parsons?

I suggested that Medvedev is no different meaning they don’t need an OA goalie. Go get a 18 or 19 year old if they truly feel they need one.

I’m not looking at numbers. I am looking at results. The results show that Oster won games and Elliott did not. As an 18 year old, he lost three straight in round 2. He was replaced in net. He was the starter the next year and lost his net prior to the playoffs and pretty much didn’t play in last years playoffs getting one start and parts of two other games…

Let’s not keep going in circles. The point is London should not be using an OA spot on a goalie when Medvedev has been just as good. London is a team with very few weaknesses. They can afford to go out and make a pitch for George or another top 19 year old and not worry about needing to fill another spot. Freeing up the OA slot will allow them to address any other positional need at a relatively low cost.

If they feel Parsons is a better fit then so be it but I think they are better off either rolling with Medvedev and a capable backup or go acquire a bonafide starter that is not an OA. Hard to find this year but so be it.

That is much better management of assets.

 

[SFC]

Biased observer here as a Kitchener fan but I think Andonovski + Parsons are what London needs to fully solidify the back end. I don't think Elliot's the guy, perfect record so far this season or not.

Gerald Coleman had a perfect playoff record in '05 until he dropped a game and then the Knights went with Adam Dennis. Are they prepared to do the same with Elliott and Medvedev this year?

 

[dirty12]

Biased observer here as a Kitchener fan but I think Andonovski + Parsons are what London needs to fully solidify the back end. I don't think Elliot's the guy, perfect record so far this season or not.

Gerald Coleman had a perfect playoff record in '05 until he dropped a game and then the Knights went with Adam Dennis. Are they prepared to do the same with Elliott and Medvedev this year?

Medvedev appears to be a very good 17 yr old. Limited to 30-35 regular season starts, he should be ok to come in, in relief like McIvor did for NB last season.
The importance of goaltending is vastly over stated imo; Oster, a mediocre talent was awarded GOY for freak sakes.
While not good obviously, Parsons was not a whole lot worse in the playoffs last season than Elliot has been in the playoffs. But as good as Parsons has started this season, it would just be dumb to mess with perfection >40% into the season.
It would be insane for Niagara to replace Flores with another OA goalie at this point imo.

 

[OMG67]

Medvedev appears to be a very good 17 yr old. Limited to 30-35 regular season starts, he should be ok to come in, in relief like McIvor did for NB last season.
The importance of goaltending is vastly over stated imo; Oster, a mediocre talent was awarded GOY for freak sakes.
While not good obviously, Parsons was not a whole lot worse in the playoffs last season than Elliot has been in the playoffs. But as good as Parsons has started this season, it would just be dumb to mess with perfection >40% into the season.
It would be insane for Niagara to replace Flores with another OA goalie at this point imo.

You mean like the close to perfection last year where Elliott was replaced as the starter or the year before when he shut the bed in round 2? You keep circling through these guys but Elliott was the starter two years in a row for a 100+ point team. None of the goalies you mentioned were in the same situation on the same calibre of team. If goaltending were so inconsequential, why was Elliott replaced in the playoffs two seasons ago and replaced as the starter near the end of last year and was relegated to bench door concierge for the playoffs?

Statistics don’t mean anything. What matters is wins. If statistics mattered, Grant Fuhr would be one of the worst goalies of all time.

Either a goalie can prove to be a winner when it counts or he isn’t. Elliott is a loser. When the foaling got tough the last two seasons, he got going…. All the way to the bench to watch.

Oster won 12 layoff games last year for a team that finished with 89 points. Elliott finished last season with one playoff win for a team that got 105 points…. If you are that stone cold stubborn to not see the difference, I cannot say anything to open your mind. So be it.

IMO, Elliott is average at best and has a proven track record of being shot in the playoffs and down the stretch. I prefer to look at DEMONSTRATED success and failure when assessing value and competency.

Elliott may very well perform this season but his starts have been weaker of the two platoon goalie starts. Medvedev has gotten more of the starts vs quality teams. Elliott has played the bottom feeders. That should tell you something as well.

 

[Wolf on a Wire]

You mean like the close to perfection last year where Elliott was replaced as the starter or the year before when he shut the bed in round 2? You keep circling through these guys but Elliott was the starter two years in a row for a 100+ point team. None of the goalies you mentioned were in the same situation on the same calibre of team. If goaltending were so inconsequential, why was Elliott replaced in the playoffs two seasons ago and replaced as the starter near the end of last year and was relegated to bench door concierge for the playoffs?

Statistics don’t mean anything. What matters is wins. If statistics mattered, Grant Fuhr would be one of the worst goalies of all time.

Either a goalie can prove to be a winner when it counts or he isn’t. Elliott is a loser. When the foaling got tough the last two seasons, he got going…. All the way to the bench to watch.

Oster won 12 layoff games last year for a team that finished with 89 points. Elliott finished last season with one playoff win for a team that got 105 points…. If you are that stone cold stubborn to not see the difference, I cannot say anything to open your mind. So be it.

IMO, Elliott is average at best and has a proven track record of being shot in the playoffs and down the stretch. I prefer to look at DEMONSTRATED success and failure when assessing value and competency.

Elliott may very well perform this season but his starts have been weaker of the two platoon goalie starts. Medvedev has gotten more of the starts vs quality teams. Elliott has played the bottom feeders. That should tell you something as well.

I think the Elliot horse is dead so we can all stop beating down on him. How about this Wolves’s?? HaHa

 

[Otto]

Gerald Coleman had a perfect playoff record in '05 until he dropped a game and then the Knights went with Adam Dennis. Are they prepared to do the same with Elliott and Medvedev this year?

Not exactly how it went down in '05. Dennis/Coleman alternated games in the first two series and the first two games against Kitchener. Game 3 was Dennis' start and he was stellar saving 32/33 shots. Dennis started the first 3 games of the Ottawa series got shelled in games 2 & 3, Coleman came in the middle of game 3, got the win, and started the final two games of the series and won both.

The Knights got Dennis that season, because he beat them in 2003/04 and they knew he could do it again. They don't have that same fear with Parsons, he's beatable and his career playoff stats show he's not worth the price London would have to pay for him. Knights will be fine with Elliott/Medvedev

 

[All the Answers]

4 of 6 defenseman being rookies and one of those a forward didn't help Parsons either...

 

[Otto]

4 of 6 defenseman being rookies and one of those a forward didn't help Parsons either...

Apparently only wins count though..

 

[tjziel]

Oster and his team were a f’ugly 1-7 after Punnet hurt himself. Oster is just an average solid starter, maybe the 5th best among the 6 remaining OA goalies.
Parsons was 3.77/0.877 in the playoffs last season, but because Elliot was just 2.95/0.887, London should move currently the perfect Elliot + for Parsons?

Well this signifies the end of this argument. Austin Elliott is staying a London Knight. I have a buddy that works at Vaughn and he said that Medvedev and Elliot were able to order pads and approved by Mark Hunter in October. When Wilmore was still on the team, Mark Hunter didn’t approve him getting new pads signifying that he was going to likely get moved, and as we know he did.

To sum it up Mark Hunter wouldn’t have allowed Elliott to order new pads if he felt he could get an upgrade for Elliott for a reasonable price.

 

[EvenSteven]

Well this signifies the end of this argument. Austin Elliott is staying a London Knight. I have a buddy that works at Vaughan and he said that Medvedev and Elliot were able to order pads and approved by Mark Hunter. When Wilmore was still on the team, Mark Hunter didn’t approve him getting new pads signifying that he was going to likely get moved, and as we know he did.

To sum it up Mark Hunter wouldn’t have allowed Elliott to order new pads if he felt he could get an upgrade for Elliott for a reasonable price.

Good to know. Looking forward to seeing if Elliot can repeat past playoff performances on the Forest City.

 

[SFC]

Not exactly how it went down in '05. Dennis/Coleman alternated games in the first two series and the first two games against Kitchener. Game 3 was Dennis' start and he was stellar saving 32/33 shots. Dennis started the first 3 games of the Ottawa series got shelled in games 2 & 3, Coleman came in the middle of game 3, got the win, and started the final two games of the series and won both.

The Knights got Dennis that season, because he beat them in 2003/04 and they knew he could do it again. They don't have that same fear with Parsons, he's beatable and his career playoff stats show he's not worth the price London would have to pay for him. Knights will be fine with Elliott/Medvedev

Very helpful details and analysis, thanks Otto. Appreciate the clarifications.

Parsons definitely isn't Dennis. But I still wouldn't want to go to war with Elliott/Medvedev, even (and perhaps especially) with that team in front of them.

It's not a scientific analysis but Elliott gives me Dan Turple vibes. (Side note: Dan Turple is a great human, he just really played badly in the playoffs for the Rangers.)

 

[OMG67]

Very helpful details and analysis, thanks Otto. Appreciate the clarifications.

Parsons definitely isn't Dennis. But I still wouldn't want to go to war with Elliott/Medvedev, even (and perhaps especially) with that team in front of them.

It's not a scientific analysis but Elliott gives me Dan Turple vibes. (Side note: Dan Turple is a great human, he just really played badly in the playoffs for the Rangers.)

Goaltending is such an essential position. Much more important than the skater. You have ot have faith in the goaltender. Elliott has done nothing in playoffs at the Major Junior Level over the last two seasons that would or should provide confidence. This is a goalie that lost his starting position late last season and played in only 3 games last year in the playoffs as a 19 year old. The playoffs previously, he was replaced in net twice over the course of the playoffs. Both teams were fantastic, top rated teams with over 100 points.

Somehow we are comparing Parsons playoff numbers after entering the playoffs in 4th place and losing to the eventual League Champions in round 2. The Rangers were supposed to lose that series. London rolled over everyone. They went 16-2 and scored 88 goals (5.5 GPG). Parsons gave up 4.5 GPG vs London. That is a goal per game better than the other goalies on average.

Oster was fine until the Generals limped into the Finals. He had a bad series but that was a team effort. That scoreboard reflected the state of the team heading into the Finals. We all knew the Eastern Conference playoffs was going to be a grind. The Semi-Final as a knock ‘em out, drag ‘em out affair. I don’t fault Oster for that series loss at all. London was healthy and fresh and rolled over the Generals, as they should in that situation.

The difference between Simpson and Elliot is pretty wide. The question is whether the Knights can win in spite of goaltending. To date, Medvedev has been given the lions share of the tougher teams. It seems more likely this is a platoon situation right now and Hunter will decide on his starting goalie nearer the playoffs and whomever is the hot hand at the time will likely get the nod. The challenge with that is if Medvedev is the one that gets the nod, the Knights will have an OA sitting on the bench opening the door. Seems like a bit of a waste.

The problem is there aren’t many 19 year olds out there and definitely none of the ones available are better. London may be handcuffed into keeping this tandem, upgrading their OA goalie, or deciding to roll the dice and run with Medvedev and a traditional backup. It comes down to whether an OA skater becomes available that necessitates Hunter to make a decision.

 

[dirty12]

Goaltending is such an essential position. Much more important than the skater. You have ot have faith in the goaltender. Elliott has done nothing in playoffs at the Major Junior Level over the last two seasons that would or should provide confidence. This is a goalie that lost his starting position late last season and played in only 3 games last year in the playoffs as a 19 year old. The playoffs previously, he was replaced in net twice over the course of the playoffs. Both teams were fantastic, top rated teams with over 100 points.

Somehow we are comparing Parsons playoff numbers after entering the playoffs in 4th place and losing to the eventual League Champions in round 2. The Rangers were supposed to lose that series. London rolled over everyone. They went 16-2 and scored 88 goals (5.5 GPG). Parsons gave up 4.5 GPG vs London. That is a goal per game better than the other goalies on average.

Oster was fine until the Generals limped into the Finals. He had a bad series but that was a team effort. That scoreboard reflected the state of the team heading into the Finals. We all knew the Eastern Conference playoffs was going to be a grind. The Semi-Final as a knock ‘em out, drag ‘em out affair. I don’t fault Oster for that series loss at all. London was healthy and fresh and rolled over the Generals, as they should in that situation.

The difference between Simpson and Elliot is pretty wide. The question is whether the Knights can win in spite of goaltending. To date, Medvedev has been given the lions share of the tougher teams. It seems more likely this is a platoon situation right now and Hunter will decide on his starting goalie nearer the playoffs and whomever is the hot hand at the time will likely get the nod. The challenge with that is if Medvedev is the one that gets the nod, the Knights will have an OA sitting on the bench opening the door. Seems like a bit of a waste.

The problem is there aren’t many 19 year olds out there and definitely none of the ones available are better. London may be handcuffed into keeping this tandem, upgrading their OA goalie, or deciding to roll the dice and run with Medvedev and a traditional backup. It comes down to whether an OA skater becomes available that necessitates Hunter to make a decision.

Hyperbole.
Oster should be upgraded to Flores, or just waived; then look to acquire Krawchuk. Ivankovic should be sent along with some premium picks for McIvor.
All that is needed is a solid goaltender. The pretty stats are much more often than not a product of the team.

 

[OMG67]

Hyperbole.
Oster should be upgraded to Flores, or just waived; then look to acquire Krawchuk. Ivankovic should be sent along with some premium picks for McIvor.
All that is needed is a solid goaltender. The pretty stats are much more often than not a product of the team.

I agree that the pretty stats are a result of the team. Wins is what matter. Elliott is 4-7 on an elite playoff team. That’s the point! Oster’s regular seasons stats aren’t far off his playoff stats.

 

[Otto]

Very helpful details and analysis, thanks Otto. Appreciate the clarifications.

Parsons definitely isn't Dennis. But I still wouldn't want to go to war with Elliott/Medvedev, even (and perhaps especially) with that team in front of them.

It's not a scientific analysis but Elliott gives me Dan Turple vibes. (Side note: Dan Turple is a great human, he just really played badly in the playoffs for the Rangers.)

The difference between Turple & Elliott, is that Turple didn't have Dave Rook coaching him.

 

[tjziel]

Like I said on the Knights board, give Dave Rook a year to work with Medvedev and Elliott. The Knights also haven’t had a super competitive game yet where the stakes are up except for maybe Oshawa.

Dave Rook guided the Knights goaltending to a 2005 and 2016 Memorial Cup.

 

[tjziel]

Is it me or is there more potential sellers than buyers this year? The only real buyers are:

Oshawa
Barrie
London

Teams that are half in because the top teams are clearly better):

Mississauga
Erie
Kitchener
Saginaw
Windsor
Brantford
Niagara
Kingston

So I’m thinking most GM’s that are half in have to add so much that it would deplete their assets, to compete with London, Barrie or Oshawa.

 

[dirty12]

I think Brampton, Erie, Kingston could end buying as much or more than Barrie, London, and Oshawa.

 

[dogs777]

I think Brampton, Erie, Kingston could end buying as much or more than Barrie, London, and Oshawa.

Brampton especially with the Leenders picks

 

[GoKnightsGo44]

I agree that the pretty stats are a result of the team. Wins is what matter. Elliott is 4-7 on an elite playoff team. That’s the point! Oster’s regular seasons stats aren’t far off his playoff stats.

@OMG67 I respect your knowledge and sound opinion, in this case you’re off the mark. Elliot has been the real deal. His major flaws early were rebound control and puck handling, those issues have been sorted. He is a legitimate championship goalie, I think you need to watch him more.

 

[OMG67]

@OMG67 I respect your knowledge and sound opinion, in this case you’re off the mark. Elliot has been the real deal. His major flaws early were rebound control and puck handling, those issues have been sorted. He is a legitimate championship goalie, I think you need to watch him more.

He was a legitimate starter as an 18 year old and 19 year old and both times he lost the net late in the year and/or the playoffs. He started last season, lost the net late in the season and he pretty much played a mop up role in the playoffs last year. Even this year he was 3-0 with a 2.33 to start the year in Saskatoon. The reality is, he lost the net to a younger goalie last year and was waived through the league.

His regular season career stats in the WHL are 2.37 .906 58-14-6 over 85 games. His playoff stats? 3.27 .883 4-7 record.

So, this isn’t about what he has shown this year or last year or the year before in the regular season. It is 100% about how he has played downt he stretch and losing his net to a younger goalie while posting great regular season stats.

So, the question really comes down to whether using a valuable OA slot on him is ideal considering his lack of being able to close the door in the playoffs.

It seems like Medvedev is getting the tougher starts as well. It looks like the platoon situation is leaning towards Medvedev. So, it may be that he doesn’t even get the net in the playoffs. So, IMO, if the Knights can snag a more quality option that is not an OA, I think that is a much better option. Open the OA slot to acquire a more impactful player, especially considering the discount on OA’s vs 19 year olds.

EDIT:
I would seriously go after George. Flip him next year and roll with Medvedev. Open that OA slot and go snag an impact OA. That assumes George can be had. If it costs the same as Leenders, who cares? Trade him next year and the net cost of him for a run this year is probably around a 2nd, 3rd, 4th.

Leenders went for 3x 2nds, 3x 3rds, 4th, 5th. If you can get 2x 2nds, 2x 3rds, and a 5th next year at the deadline, that’s a pretty good net value for a rental this year. Or, keep him and trade Medvedev and make another run again next year if they are in position.

That’s sort of where I am coming from more so than shitting on Elliott.

 

[Wolf on a Wire]

Is it me or is there more potential sellers than buyers this year? The only real buyers are:

Oshawa
Barrie
London

Teams that are half in because the top teams are clearly better):

Mississauga
Erie
Kitchener
Saginaw
Windsor
Brantford
Niagara
Kingston

So I’m thinking most GM’s that are half in have to add so much that it would deplete their assets, to compete with London, Barrie or Oshawa.

I think you forgot the Wolves’s..

 

[frontsfan67]

I think you forgot the Wolves’s..

Lol