Player Discussion Buffalo Pickers - The Search For Serviceable Defensemen, Summer of '23 Edition

[Rowley Birkin]

I agree with all of this, except to the last bit I'd say in the event we don't do any NHL D moves this offseason, crazy as that'd be, I still don't see the specific need to do a forward-for-defenseman prospect swap unless the guy is going to be ready to play a real role in 2024-2025 -- more ready than the guys we already have at that.

I hope it doesn't come to it - but if we make no major NHL moves (ie Jokiharju still in top 4) then we sure as hell better bring another prospect in - because it's the only way we'll eventually get better.

I do think it's feasible that a guy ready to play in '24/25 might be available. Dangle one of our offensive guys to one of the aforementioned teams whose pipeline is the opposite if ours.

 

[Jim Bob]

I hope it doesn't come to it - but if we make no major NHL moves (ie Jokiharju still in top 4) then we sure as hell better bring another prospect in - because it's the only way we'll eventually get better.

I do think it's feasible that a guy ready to play in '24/25 might be available. Dangle one of our offensive guys to one of the aforementioned teams whose pipeline is the opposite if ours.

With NHL GMs loving "their guys", I think a deal like that is easier said than done. That is why you rarely see them happen with prospects that are tracking well with their respective organizations.

If they move a promising prospect, it is rarely for a similar prospect at a different position. It is almost exclusively for an NHL roster player.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

With NHL GMs loving "their guys", I think a deal like that is easier said than done. That is why you rarely see them happen with prospects that are tracking well with their respective organizations.

If they move a promising prospect, it is rarely for a similar prospect at a different position. It is almost exclusively for an NHL roster player.

I'm not saying it's common - but it's not common for one team to have so many highly rated young players/prospects such as we do.

One arguement i heard from some posters who staunchly defended taking three forwards in last year's draft was 'you can always make trades in future'. Well... we might now be at the time that has to happen.

 

[Jim Bob]

I'm not saying it's common - but it's not common for one team to have so many highly rated young players/prospects such as we do.

One arguement i heard from some posters who staunchly defended taking three forwards in last year's draft was 'you can always make trades in future'. Well... we might now be at the time that has to happen.

That's all well and good. But, you need two to tango. And I doubt you find another GM that is of a similar mind with respect to giving up a solid D prospect for say Rosen or Ostlund.

Adams likely will value his guy higher than the D prospect and vice versa.

 

[Dingo44]

That's all well and good. But, you need two to tango. And I doubt you find another GM that is of a similar mind with respect to giving up a solid D prospect for say Rosen or Ostlund.

Adams likely will value his guy higher than the D prospect and vice versa.

The one team hoarding all the right handed D prospects just went on a buying spree and used a couple of them. The Kings aren't moving any more of them.

 

[Jacob582]

I think their big ufa signing will be Mark Pysyk as our 8th D!

 

[Fjordsen]

I think their big ufa signing will be Mark Pysyk as our top 4 D!

FTFY

 

[Tatanka]

I think they move VO for Petry and call it an offseason. Not what I would do, but that is my hunch.

 

[Chainshot]

I think they move VO for Petry and call it an offseason. Not what I would do, but that is my hunch.

That would make me happy. *shrug*

 

[alehman42]

That would make me happy. *shrug*

That individual move would make me happy, but I would not be happy if that were the only move of the off-season.

My prediction (please understand this is a prediction, not a wishlist):
A fairly big move for a defenseman (either trade or signing)
Some depth signings (4th line center, bottom-pair D, guys to shore up Rochester)
No changes in goal.

Quinjury makes things a lot murkier wrt to trading Olofsson, so I'm not going to venture a guess as to what happens with him now.

 

[Tatanka]

That would make me happy. *shrug*

I would be more aggressive but Petry would fill a hole. I have no faith entering the season with a rookie goaltender and a maybe backup. I also think we can do better down the lineup with vets who can be relied upon to close out games. Even with Quinns injury I believe they will score goals.

 

[Chainshot]

I would be more aggressive but Petry would fill a hole. I have no faith entering the season with a rookie goaltender and a maybe backup. I also think we can do better down the lineup with vets who can be relied upon to close out games. Even with Quinns injury I believe they will score goals.

In my ideal world specific to this thread about finding some good defensemen is that they rock out a good mid-pairing RHD and a better third pairing LHD that pushes Stillman or Boosh up into the press box as their 7th and Jokiharju on out, period. I've wondered at a nutbar like Zadorov because why not have a nutbar on the third pairing? And for a mid-pairing RHD, Petry's been of interest to me for a couple of summers now.

As for the rest, that's the roster speculation and goalies threads and I agree - a competent netminder so we're not left questioning the consistency of the "other" tender and perhaps a forward who has some experience (like a Cup ring) into the mix with the Quinjury.

 

[Tatanka]

In my ideal world specific to this thread about finding some good defensemen is that they rock out a good mid-pairing RHD and a better third pairing LHD that pushes Stillman or Boosh up into the press box as their 7th and Jokiharju on out, period. I've wondered at a nutbar like Zadorov because why not have a nutbar on the third pairing? And for a mid-pairing RHD, Petry's been of interest to me for a couple of summers now.

As for the rest, that's the roster speculation and goalies threads and I agree - a competent netminder so we're not left questioning the consistency of the "other" tender and perhaps a forward who has some experience (like a Cup ring) into the mix with the Quinjury.

We will see tomorrow morning. The only thing that gives me pause is the notion that some UFAs will be willing to take st deals until the cap rises. It depresses the value of existing contracts. It is a market variable that is new this year. Shrug.

 

[Dingo44]

In my ideal world specific to this thread about finding some good defensemen is that they rock out a good mid-pairing RHD and a better third pairing LHD that pushes Stillman or Boosh up into the press box as their 7th and Jokiharju on out, period. I've wondered at a nutbar like Zadorov because why not have a nutbar on the third pairing? And for a mid-pairing RHD, Petry's been of interest to me for a couple of summers now.

As for the rest, that's the roster speculation and goalies threads and I agree - a competent netminder so we're not left questioning the consistency of the "other" tender and perhaps a forward who has some experience (like a Cup ring) into the mix with the Quinjury.

It's going to be wild tomorrow. Or not. The draft was kind of a dud for trades. Lots of crazy names out there that a couple of years ago would drive up a bidding war.

 

[Chainshot]

It's going to be wild tomorrow. Or not. The draft was kind of a dud for trades. Lots of crazy names out there that a couple of years ago would drive up a bidding war.

I'm hoping they haven't blown their opportunity to land a defenseman in trade. We'll see.

 

[Sabreality]

In my ideal world specific to this thread about finding some good defensemen is that they rock out a good mid-pairing RHD and a better third pairing LHD that pushes Stillman or Boosh up into the press box as their 7th and Jokiharju on out, period. I've wondered at a nutbar like Zadorov because why not have a nutbar on the third pairing? And for a mid-pairing RHD, Petry's been of interest to me for a couple of summers now.

As for the rest, that's the roster speculation and goalies threads and I agree - a competent netminder so we're not left questioning the consistency of the "other" tender and perhaps a forward who has some experience (like a Cup ring) into the mix with the Quinjury.

I know you really started to harsh on Joki finish to the year, but kick him to the curb completely?

He can't handle 21 min, but 3rd pair mins? I know what have you done for me lately is a thing, but just wrapping up his 23y old season, RD, RFA (we know nobody is giving them away). I still think they believe in him (right or wrong at this point). But is this his ceiling?

My slowdown, devils advocate would be looking at how a lot of guys looked at 23...a guy like Forsling was a wreck, what was everybodies fav acquisition Matt Roy doing at 23?

I'm not pounding the table that hard for him if a revamp occurs, just think it might be a tad premature when it comes to the player.

 

[Hasekperreault23]

Is this still an issue after this year's draft? The pipeline doesnt look nearly as bare as last year.

Johnson
Novikov
Strbak
McCarthy

It seems they have quite a few options that have top-4 potential. Obviously, not any blue chippers, but that's not really a concern when Dahlin and Power are our 1-2 for the next decade +. We just need on of those four to pan out as Power's partner, and we're good.

I don't care much for a prospect for prospect swap based on positions. Trade one of those forward prospects for a roster player that will help today.

Not saying Im against a prospect for prospect trade. I just don't view our defensive prospect pool as in dire need. Our top-3 defensemen are set for 7 years. I dont want to give extra value to a team based on a positional need that, in my mind, doesnt really exist.

Find a top-4 guy that can play for the next 3-4 years, then hopefully one of those four prospects can stick with Power who should be capable of driving his own pair by then. This doesnt even consider who we draft next year and beyond.

We're in an incredibly unique situation with having TWO defensemen takien #1 in the draft only a few years apart.

I agree..and Novikov is a stud..he will get a cup of coffee this year we will love him as fans

 

[Chainshot]

I know you really started to harsh on Joki finish to the year, but kick him to the curb completely?

He can't handle 21 min, but 3rd pair mins? I know what have you done for me lately is a thing, but just wrapping up his 23y old season, RD, RFA (we know nobody is giving them away). I still think they believe in him (right or wrong at this point). But is this his ceiling?

My slowdown, devils advocate would be looking at how a lot of guys looked at 23...a guy like Forsling was a wreck, what was everybodies fav acquisition Matt Roy doing at 23?

I'm not pounding the table that hard for him if a revamp occurs, just think it might be a tad premature when it comes to the player.

Perhaps I'm tired of trying to figure out what he could be. I watch a guy who struggles at positional play and technique around his own net, someone mesmerized by the puck who regularly chains together the wrong play when defending to wind up out of position and losing confrontations. It got worse as the year went on - maybe it was the concussion - but I don't see the bones of a good defender there right now outside of his handedness.

If they were to only acquire a single defender and it's someone to plug into the top 4, I can see retaining Jokiharju and having him at reduced time/role for when injury inevitably happens above him in the pecking order. I would rather they get what they had from him as a short-term, injury replacement #4 than a full-time #4.

If they acquire TWO defensemen, one of whom is that top 4 guy and another who is a capable #5 (in my caffeine addled brain, Zadorov) THAT guy would then be the temp at #4 and there is less need to keep Jokiharju at all.

If he can fix his positional play, improve his stick techniques, improve his d-zone gap and positioning, and his reads... he's still kind of undersized and not particularly dynamic. So... I'm more in favor of finding two guys and parting ways than just keeping him around in a shrunken role, hoping he might somehow fix his game. Maybe it's also that I'm really sour on Wolford's body of work thus far too to not think they have the guy on staff who can iron some of that out with him. Honestly, with the work Weber did in regards to things like those issues with guys like Pilut, Davies, and others on the AHL roster, maybe if he'd stayed I'd be more hopeful. And maybe Joker needs a more structured team system since it seems he's having post-concussion processing lag in all three zones, so that he can think even less and just react. I'm not sure. It would be herculean to fix the myriad issues he had to end last year. I don't see it as a single thread to unravel his fall, but a series of separate issues that all needed to be markedly better to get a guy who isn't a liability.

 

[Sabreality]

Perhaps I'm tired of trying to figure out what he could be. I watch a guy who struggles at positional play and technique around his own net, someone mesmerized by the puck who regularly chains together the wrong play when defending to wind up out of position and losing confrontations. It got worse as the year went on - maybe it was the concussion - but I don't see the bones of a good defender there right now outside of his handedness.

If they were to only acquire a single defender and it's someone to plug into the top 4, I can see retaining Jokiharju and having him at reduced time/role for when injury inevitably happens above him in the pecking order. I would rather they get what they had from him as a short-term, injury replacement #4 than a full-time #4.

If they acquire TWO defensemen, one of whom is that top 4 guy and another who is a capable #5 (in my caffeine addled brain, Zadorov) THAT guy would then be the temp at #4 and there is less need to keep Jokiharju at all.

If he can fix his positional play, improve his stick techniques, improve his d-zone gap and positioning, and his reads... he's still kind of undersized and not particularly dynamic. So... I'm more in favor of finding two guys and parting ways than just keeping him around in a shrunken role, hoping he might somehow fix his game. Maybe it's also that I'm really sour on Wolford's body of work thus far too to not think they have the guy on staff who can iron some of that out with him. Honestly, with the work Weber did in regards to things like those issues with guys like Pilut, Davies, and others on the AHL roster, maybe if he'd stayed I'd be more hopeful. And maybe Joker needs a more structured team system since it seems he's having post-concussion processing lag in all three zones, so that he can think even less and just react. I'm not sure. It would be herculean to fix the myriad issues he had to end last year. I don't see it as a single thread to unravel his fall, but a series of separate issues that all needed to be markedly better to get a guy who isn't a liability.

well that's fair

 

[Ace]

You would think our level of scoring would be appealing to a vet D looking for one year and then cashing in when the cap rises. You should get some points just for showing up. Lyubushkin set career high of *checks notes* 14!

 

[MOGlLNY]

It's going to be wild tomorrow. Or not. The draft was kind of a dud for trades. Lots of crazy names out there that a couple of years ago would drive up a bidding war.

Going to the Dreger school of journalism I see. Now you’ve got to suck Paul Marner’s toes in order to graduate.

 

[Fezzy126]

I know you really started to harsh on Joki finish to the year, but kick him to the curb completely?

He can't handle 21 min, but 3rd pair mins? I know what have you done for me lately is a thing, but just wrapping up his 23y old season, RD, RFA (we know nobody is giving them away). I still think they believe in him (right or wrong at this point). But is this his ceiling?

My slowdown, devils advocate would be looking at how a lot of guys looked at 23...a guy like Forsling was a wreck, what was everybodies fav acquisition Matt Roy doing at 23?

I'm not pounding the table that hard for him if a revamp occurs, just think it might be a tad premature when it comes to the player.

I think the biggest problem with Jokiharju is that his most important developmental years were spent with a revolving door of poor coaching, poor systems, and the challenge of playing through the pandemic. While Dahlin went through the same exact situation, Joki doesn't have the elite, world class talent or IQ that Dahlin does to overcome those obstacles.

I think Joki is going to play a long time in the league, eventually becoming a serviceable dman, but I'm not sure how long it's going take, or what partner/system will bring out the best in him. It's obvious what we need on the back end - Veteran, PK'ing ability, sandpaper, responsible in front of our own net, toughness along the boards.

At this point I'd rather put Joki's developmental risk on someone else and move forward finding a better complimentary piece for our group.

 

[Dingo44]

Joki is the new Hajt/Šmehlík/Weber/McKee/Scandella/Bogo/RIsto. Can't be a Sabres fan unless one defenseman is the whipping boy and the cause of all the team’s defensive problems.

 

[Djp]

With NHL GMs loving "their guys", I think a deal like that is easier said than done. That is why you rarely see them happen with prospects that are tracking well with their respective organizations.

If they move a promising prospect, it is rarely for a similar prospect at a different position. It is almost exclusively for an NHL roster player.

The situation is when a team picked player X at position Y a few years ago. This draft they were much higher in the 1st and took a similar position player. Thst pushes down this prior prospect.

an example of this is the D NJ gave up in the Meier trade because they drafted a similar position player in top 5 last year.

 

[MOGlLNY]

Joki is the new Hajt/Šmehlík/Weber/McKee/Scandella/Bogo/RIsto. Can't be a Sabres fan unless one defenseman is the whipping boy and the cause of all the team’s defensive problems.

All these players were actually bad even when they left tho. Except McKee