Player Discussion Buffalo Pickers - The Search For Serviceable Defensemen, Summer of '23 Edition

[Rowley Birkin]

Maybe. But you don’t give up Kulich or Savoie unless you’re trading for a top pairing guy. The Sabres don’t necessarily need a top pair guy, they need a second pair dman to push joki down the roster or off the team. In that case, 1st + Rosen is more than fair as a starting point.

I’m not necessarily against trading for a top pair dman, but I don’t give up top prospects unless we’re getting one. I don’t give them up for Weegar for instance. Who I love.

I don't think everything is cut & dried like that.

For sure - Rosen + 13 OV should be a strong offer for somebody we may want & should be enough to get a deal done. I recently posted this on the trade board thread.

But i don't like the way Kulich/Savoie are treated as completely untouchable on this forum by many people (and seemingly by Adams).

We already have one of the best performing teams offensively in the entire league. Without needing either of these guys to play a single game. Offensively gifted players are NOT what this team needs in order to take the next step.

So - if the ideal defensive target was identified & it came down to either having to give up one of Kulich/Savoie or no deal... Then i make the deal.

It's not like losing one of them would suddenly make the team devoid of any offensive talent. You'd still have the one you didn't trade. You'd have Thompson, Tuch, Skinner, Cozens, Mitts, Quinn, Peterka. You'd still have Rosen, Ostlund, Poltapov, Kisakov etc trying to crack that lineup.

While the guy you're trading for provides the team with more of an upgrade than any single forward possibly could.

It's simply trading from a position of absolute strength to a position of weakness.

 

[TehDoak]

I mean AZ flatout said they were not taking back any salary in a Chyc deal, so if we planned to send a single roster player back that would kill the deals.

Right but the money angle bring the reason the deal didn’t happen doesn’t track when they added money in the greenway trade. They could have easily flipped one of Joker/Lybushkin/Clague if they needed the roster spot.

I’m glad we didn’t overpay for him as I’d rather just pay cash on the ufa market this summer for a more veteran/better fit needwise.

 

[Jim Bob]

I don't think everything is cut & dried like that.

For sure - Rosen + 13 OV should be a strong offer for somebody we may want & should be enough to get a deal done. I recently posted this on the trade board thread.

But i don't like the way Kulich/Savoie are treated as completely untouchable on this forum by many people (and seemingly by Adams).

We already have one of the best performing teams offensively in the entire league. Without needing either of these guys to play a single game. Offensively gifted players are NOT what this team needs in order to take the next step.

So - if the ideal defensive target was identified & it came down to either having to give up one of Kulich/Savoie or no deal... Then i make the deal.

It's not like losing one of them would suddenly make the team devoid of any offensive talent. You'd still have the one you didn't trade. You'd have Thompson, Tuch, Skinner, Cozens, Mitts, Quinn, Peterka. You'd still have Rosen, Ostlund, Poltapov, Kisakov etc trying to crack that lineup.

While the guy you're trading for provides the team with more of an upgrade than any single forward possibly could.

It's simply trading from a position of absolute strength to a position of weakness.

When it comes to Savoie and Kulich and trading them, I think Adams is viewing things where he is not judging Savoie and Kulich versus Quinn and Peterka today. I think he is projecting things out 2 or 3 years and he may want to wait and see if Savoie and/or Kulich end up being much better impact NHLers than Quinn and/or Peterka.

So, Adams is comfortable with the opportunity cost with respect to holding onto Savoie and Kulich to see what they look like when they are closer to being fully developed as pros.

Ultimately, it comes down to what kinds of players are available for the four main packages you are talking about:

13+[Savoie, Kulich, Ostlund, or Rosen]

We have no idea what players go from unavailable to available when flipping the prospect from Rosen to Kulich or Savoie.

I would love to be a fly on the wall if Adams were trying to add a legit veteran top 4 D and called whomever is the Flames GM.

If these were the packages, it would be an interesting conversation for me:

Andersson for 13 + Savoie
Weegar for 13 + Kulich
Tanev for [13 or Rosen] (assuming either Buffalo is not on his 10 team No Trade list or waives to come to Buffalo)

 

[Chainshot]

Right but the money angle bring the reason the deal didn’t happen doesn’t track when they added money in the greenway trade. They could have easily flipped one of Joker/Lybushkin/Clague if they needed the roster spot.

I’m glad we didn’t overpay for him as I’d rather just pay cash on the ufa market this summer for a more veteran/better fit needwise.

Someone mentioned that moving the Bjork contract out made the Greenway acquisition closer to even for payroll purposes. His deal wasn't a 2-way and was actually 1.8M in real dollars while Greenway's is only 2.5M in real dollars this year. The difference is under $200,000.

 

[Chainshot]

When it comes to Savoie and Kulich and trading them, I think Adams is viewing things where he is not judging Savoie and Kulich versus Quinn and Peterka today. I think he is projecting things out 2 or 3 years and he may want to wait and see if Savoie and/or Kulich end up being much better impact NHLers than Quinn and/or Peterka.

So, Adams is comfortable with the opportunity cost with respect to holding onto Savoie and Kulich to see what they look like when they are closer to being fully developed as pros.

Ultimately, it comes down to what kinds of players are available for the four main packages you are talking about:

13+[Savoie, Kulich, Ostlund, or Rosen]

We have no idea what players go from unavailable to available when flipping the prospect from Rosen to Kulich or Savoie.

I would love to be a fly on the wall if Adams were trying to add a legit veteran top 4 D and called whomever is the Flames GM.

If these were the packages, it would be an interesting conversation for me:

Andersson for 13 + Savoie
Weegar for 13 + Kulich
Tanev for [13 or Rosen] (assuming either Buffalo is not on his 10 team No Trade list or waives to come to Buffalo)

We have entrenched Peterka and Quinn as seemingly untouchable as well. Whose to say that they are in a year or two with other development?

 

[Rowley Birkin]

When it comes to Savoie and Kulich and trading them, I think Adams is viewing things where he is not judging Savoie and Kulich versus Quinn and Peterka today. I think he is projecting things out 2 or 3 years and he may want to wait and see if Savoie and/or Kulich end up being much better impact NHLers than Quinn and/or Peterka.

So, Adams is comfortable with the opportunity cost with respect to holding onto Savoie and Kulich to see what they look like when they are closer to being fully developed as pros.

Ultimately, it comes down to what kinds of players are available for the four main packages you are talking about:

13+[Savoie, Kulich, Ostlund, or Rosen]

We have no idea what players go from unavailable to available when flipping the prospect from Rosen to Kulich or Savoie.

I would love to be a fly on the wall if Adams were trying to add a legit veteran top 4 D and called whomever is the Flames GM.

If these were the packages, it would be an interesting conversation for me:

Andersson for 13 + Savoie
Weegar for 13 + Kulich
Tanev for [13 or Rosen] (assuming either Buffalo is not on his 10 team No Trade list or waives to come to Buffalo)

Regarding the first part of your post - i think you could be right. I see this approach as being overly decadent - when you have glaring weaknesses elsewhere on the team. As the likes of Thompson, Cozens, and maybe Mitts get long term contracts - the available number of roster spots are reducing. He needs to make decisions on these guys sooner than most of us think.

Using your scenario as an example - I'd happily move one of Savoie for Andersson or Weegar. I wouldn't even trade #13 OR Rosen for Tanev.

I think if Kulich or Savoie were made available for Chychrun instead of whatever Adams offered - then we'd be watching playoff hockey right now & this thread wouldn't need to exist...

We have entrenched Peterka and Quinn as seemingly untouchable as well. Whose to say that they are in a year or two with other development?

I don't think either of them should be. Quinn is certainly closest of the four though.

In fact - if you are proclaiming Savoie /Kulich as untouchable - that should make Quinn/JJP very much available....

 

[Jim Bob]

Regarding the first part of your post - i think you could be right. I see this approach as being overly decadent - when you have glaring weaknesses elsewhere on the team. As the likes of Thompson, Cozens, and maybe Mitts get long term contracts - the available number of roster spots are reducing. He needs to make decisions on these guys sooner than most of us think.

Using your scenario as an example - I'd happily move one of Savoie for Andersson or Weegar. I wouldn't even trade #13 OR Rosen for Tanev.

I think if Kulich or Savoie were made available for Chychrun instead of whatever Adams offered - then we'd be watching playoff hockey right now & this thread wouldn't need to exist...


I don't think either of them should be. Quinn is certainly closest of the four though.

In fact - if you are proclaiming Savoie /Kulich as untouchable - that should make Quinn/JJP very much available....

As to the bolded, does he really NEED to, though?

He has all these guys under team control for a long time and I do not believe that he has any sort of pressure from ownership to speed things up and go "playoffs or you are fired" into this offseason.

I expect that ownership would be on board with this offseason going much the way last offseason went and they see if they make the playoffs from growth from within. Especially since this would again be a pretty cost effective roster.

 

[Chainshot]

As to the bolded, does he really NEED to, though?

He has all these guys under team control for a long time and I do not believe that he has any sort of pressure from ownership to speed things up and go "playoffs or you are fired" into this offseason.

I expect that ownership would be on board with this offseason going much the way last offseason went and they see if they make the playoffs from growth from within. Especially since this would again be a pretty cost effective roster.

To build on that, there was a conversation about the DRW at their height where they would leave guys for a long, long time (I want to say it was Marek) and that might be where Buffalo is angling with the talk about sustainable success.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

As to the bolded, does he really NEED to, though?

He has all these guys under team control for a long time and I do not believe that he has any sort of pressure from ownership to speed things up and go "playoffs or you are fired" into this offseason.

I expect that ownership would be on board with this offseason going much the way last offseason went and they see if they make the playoffs from growth from within. Especially since this would again be a pretty cost effective roster.

Yes. I'd argue that he does. I'm being told that Kulich is ready for the NHL, Savoie is ready for the NHL, how long before other guys are ready? They may all be under team control - but that is pointless if you don't have enough roster spots/suitable roles for them.

I get wanting to foster competition - but when you are calling guys untouchable yet not even sure where ir even if they fit.... It makes no sense.

And i will explode if i hear any of the typical Adams buzzwords/phrases from this point forward. The team has missed the playoffs for 12 straight years. The entirety of Pegula's ownership

We missed by one point this season despite major deficiencies in goal, on the blue line & team wide defensive play. I don't see how it CAN'T be playoffs or bust from here...

 

[Jim Bob]

Yes. I'd argue that he does. I'm being told that Kulich is ready for the NHL, Savoie is ready for the NHL, how long before other guys are ready? They may all be under team control - but that is pointless if you don't have enough roster spots/suitable roles for them.

I get wanting to foster competition - but when you are calling guys untouchable yet not even sure where ir even if they fit.... It makes no sense.

And i will explode if i hear any of the typical Adams buzzwords/phrases from this point forward. The team has missed the playoffs for 12 straight years. The entirety of Pegula's ownership

We missed by one point this season despite major deficiencies in goal, on the blue line & team wide defensive play. I don't see how it CAN'T be playoffs or bust from here...

I do not believe that Kulich is ready to play on an NHL team that expects to be a playoff team next season.

He has not hit the "too good for the AHL" stage in development yet. As such, I do not see why he has to be in Buffalo to start next season.

I think the talk of giving Savoie the Shane Wright treatment next season tells me that they view Savoie as a guy that they think is too good for the WHL and not good enough to stick in Buffalo.

There is no reason to view them playing next season outside of Buffalo as some sort of problem that needs to be resolved.

And as far as the semantics around the term "playoffs or bust", I just do not get the sense that Adams has a sense of urgency to give up futures to increase their odds of making the playoffs in 2023-24. A large part of that is the belief he has in the players and coaches that they have already in house.

 

[Dingo44]

I think if Kulich or Savoie were made available for Chychrun instead of whatever Adams offered - then we'd be watching playoff hockey right now & this thread wouldn't need to exist...

On March 3 both the Sabres and Ottawa had 66 points. Ottawa added Chychrun. The Sabres added another 25 points and missed the playoffs by 2 points. Ottawa added 20 points and missed by 7.

And we still have Kulich, Savoie, and our 2023 and 2024 firsts.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Let's not go too far arguing about whether options #2 or #3 were better. The best option is to acquire a top-four Dman without giving up our best prospects...not just for a one-time chance at playoffs but a long-term roster upgrade that makes the team a Cup contender.

 

[Chainshot]

Yes. I'd argue that he does. I'm being told that Kulich is ready for the NHL, Savoie is ready for the NHL, how long before other guys are ready? They may all be under team control - but that is pointless if you don't have enough roster spots/suitable roles for them.

Kulich is not ready for the NHL right now. Whoever is telling you that, stop trusting their judgement or ask them to explain if they are just stat-watching.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

I do not believe that Kulich is ready to play on an NHL team that expects to be a playoff team next season.

He has not hit the "too good for the AHL" stage in development yet. As such, I do not see why he has to be in Buffalo to start next season.

I think the talk of giving Savoie the Shane Wright treatment next season tells me that they view Savoie as a guy that they think is too good for the WHL and not good enough to stick in Buffalo.

There is no reason to view them playing next season outside of Buffalo as some sort of problem that needs to be resolved.

And as far as the semantics around the term "playoffs or bust", I just do not get the sense that Adams has a sense of urgency to give up futures to increase their odds of making the playoffs in 2023-24. A large part of that is the belief he has in the players and coaches that they have already in house.

It's clearly about making the playoffs from 2023-24 & beyond with the make up of this team. They're already the youngest team in the league.

Don't tell me that you believe in all this crap. Only the other day you were arguing the case for getting an established #1 goalie like Jussi Saros...

Next season is playoffs or bust. Adams needs to be fired if he sits on his hands & they miss - yet again.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

On March 3 both the Sabres and Ottawa had 66 points. Ottawa added Chychrun. The Sabres added another 25 points and missed the playoffs by 2 points. Ottawa added 20 points and missed by 7.

And we still have Kulich, Savoie, and our 2023 and 2024 firsts.

Yes. Perfect logic.

Acquiring a top 4 calibre Dman to either play with Power - or to allow Samuelsson to play with Power - is the biggest singular improvement this team can make. Both now & in future.

It's not hard to imagine this team getting the one extra win we ultimately needed if that role was adequately filled.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Let's not go too far arguing about whether options #2 or #3 were better. The best option is to acquire a top-four Dman without giving up our best prospects...not just for a one-time chance at playoffs but a long-term roster upgrade that makes the team a Cup contender.

Yes obviously.

But if you have to give up a prospect you don't particularly NEED in order best fill that role... Then it's a no brainer to me.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Kulich is not ready for the NHL right now. Whoever is telling you that, stop trusting their judgement or ask them to explain if they are just stat-watching.

You might not think so - and nor do i - simply due to the depth sitting in front of him.. But there are well informed people out there (such as Kris Baker) that do think so - to the point where it's discussion worthy.

Here we are - with one of the league's best offences - dare i say elite offences... despite which we're once again missing the playoffs.

Yet there are people more concerned about calling a 19 year old kid untouchable. Kid who wasn't part of this elite offence and likely won't be next year either...

Only on HF.

 

[joshjull]

You might not think so - and nor do i - simply due to the depth sitting in front of him.. But there are well informed people out there (such as Kris Baker) that do think so - to the point where it's discussion worthy.

Here we are - with one of the league's best offences - dare i say elite offences... despite which we're once again missing the playoffs.

Yet there are people more concerned about calling a 19 year old kid untouchable. Kid who wasn't part of this elite offence and likely won't be next year either...

Only on HF.

I’m pretty sure Adams views him that way as well. So not quite “only on HF”

 

[Chainshot]

You might not think so - and nor do i - simply due to the depth sitting in front of him.. But there are well informed people out there (such as Kris Baker) that do think so - to the point where it's discussion worthy.

Here we are - with one of the league's best offences - dare i say elite offences... despite which we're once again missing the playoffs.

Yet there are people more concerned about calling a 19 year old kid untouchable. Kid who wasn't part of this elite offence and likely won't be next year either...

Only on HF.

It isn't because of what is in front of him - I've laid out that I expect him up after the U20's next year - it's that he is still learning what to do in his own zone.

Perhaps I should call Bakes. I haven't talked to him in a while.

 

[joshjull]

Kulich is not ready for the NHL right now. Whoever is telling you that, stop trusting their judgement or ask them to explain if they are just stat-watching.

Bakes isn’t going to like you talking about him like thIs.

Let's not go too far arguing about whether options #2 or #3 were better. The best option is to acquire a top-four Dman without giving up our best prospects...not just for a one-time chance at playoffs but a long-term roster upgrade that makes the team a Cup contender.

Perfectly said.

 

[Chainshot]

Bakes isn’t going to like you talking about him like thIs.

Did I ever tell you about the day my old Blackberry had him on speed dial with the letter "q"? I was walking around Old Fort Niagara with my son and I think I pocket dialed him about 100 times.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

It isn't because of what is in front of him - I've laid out that I expect him up after the U20's next year - it's that he is still learning what to do in his own zone.

Perhaps I should call Bakes. I haven't talked to him in a while.

He's never going to make it because of what he can or can't do defensively. The team as a whole may well need to bring in (an)other player(s) who specialise in that... while the offensive guys on the whole simply need to consider the defensive side a little more often than they did this season.

If Kulich and/or Savoie are good enough to make this team on the merits of their offensive games - they either push out the existing offensive guys who just collectively put up a monster season - or to use Adams' own words - they get blocked behind them.

Either way - decisions will need to be made & i think for the overall sake of this team they might need to be made sooner than generally expected.

 

[Chainshot]

He's never going to make it because of what he can or can't do defensively. The team as a whole may well need to bring in (an)other player(s) who specialise in that... while the offensive guys on the whole simply need to consider the defensive side a little more often than they did this season.

If Kulich and/or Savoie are good enough to make this team on the merits of their offensive games - they either push out the existing offensive guys who just collectively put up a monster season - or to use Adams' own words - they get blocked behind them.

Either way - decisions will need to be made & i think for the overall sake of this team they might need to be made sooner than generally expected.

I'm not saying he's going to be a defensive juggernaut or something. I'm talking about his abilities away from the puck are not yet to the level guys like Peterka and Quinn were at this point last season. It's noticeable when he's out there and he's still working on it.

As for Savoie, he's getting top-line WHL matchups where he's being tasked by Patrick to shut down guys like Firkus and Yager, is one of the best PKers in the WHL, etc... He's exhibiting a high level of diligence on that side of the puck already.

As for defensemen, I'm not interested in moving either for one. There are regularly quality defensemen who can fill the needs this team has for far, far less. That's the point of the thread.

 

[Dingo44]

Yes. Perfect logic.

Acquiring a top 4 calibre Dman to either play with Power - or to allow Samuelsson to play with Power - is the biggest singular improvement this team can make. Both now & in future.

It's not hard to imagine this team getting the one extra win we ultimately needed if that role was adequately filled.

Ottawa ended up going from tied with us to being five points behind us WITH Chychrun. What is wrong with my logic exactly?

 

[Rowley Birkin]

I'm not saying he's going to be a defensive juggernaut or something. I'm talking about his abilities away from the puck are not yet to the level guys like Peterka and Quinn were at this point last season. It's noticeable when he's out there and he's still working on it.

As for Savoie, he's getting top-line WHL matchups where he's being tasked by Patrick to shut down guys like Firkus and Yager, is one of the best PKers in the WHL, etc... He's exhibiting a high level of diligence on that side of the puck already.

As for defensemen, I'm not interested in moving either for one. There are regularly quality defensemen who can fill the needs this team has for far, far less. That's the point of the thread.

As I've previously argued - we don't AT ALL have to be in the position of trying to find a reclamation project & hoping it works out - getting lucky finding a diamond in the rough. We're in the fortunate position af being able to get pretty much whatever guy we want thanks to a war chest of assets at forward & ample cap space.

Clearly - we'd be able to offer up something which far less people are attached to (yet) in the 13th pick & hope to get a deal done. Maybe it works.

But if you have to give up one of the more coveted kids i really hate the reluctance from so many of you not to do so - because short & long term it should still turn out to be in the best interest of the team.

Even if Adams sits on his hands & we roll out the same next year - he's STILL going to need to make big decisions regarding the offensive guys sooner rather than later - the first being Mitts.

He can't possibly keep them all.