TSN: Brown will no longer be Captain

[Omni Owl]

People keep acting like Toffoli/Pearson/King/Nolan/Muzzin/Slava/Shore/McNabb, were not worked in at a young age under Sutter.

So what coach worked those youngsters in ? Was there a different coach for the Kings in 2012-2016 ?

What the hell are you folks talking about ?

Its not that Sutter doesn't play the youth, its that he puts them on such a short ****ing leash that some feel there isn't room for them to develop. Gravel was a good example when he turned over the puck in a bad spot, and even though he made up for it and came back down the ice and took it back, he never saw much ice time after that (and was sent down shortly after). Its different with D men, as its better for them to spend more time in the AHL and make their mistakes in lower pressure situations, but he needs to realize that these guys are going to make mistakes.

 

[deeshamrock]

You have to still try and win, with Doughty/Kopitar/Quick/Carter still producing at high levels.

You simply can't throw in the towel.

They're professionals, they have pride and they won't throw in the towel. Doughty is young at a position where his best years are ahead of him. He's just a brilliant skilled player with off the charts talent, iq and instincts. Kopi turns 29 in Aug, Quick 31 this year and Carter 32. That's not young in hockey terms, esp for forwards. Even if they draft a top center next yr in the draft at 18 yrs old, Kopi will be hitting 30 with that kid possibly 3 yrs out. It' not good planning. Trading away 1st round picks and prospects for the 'quick fix' veteran player who will be a 'difference make in for a deep run' seldom works. Swinging for the fences gets you more strikeouts than homeruns.

They are very skilled players but you need more than a half dozen skilled players to win in the league and go to the Cup Finals. This past year, those 102 pts were a house built on a weak foundation. Far too many wins were low scoring 1 goal games against teams they should not have struggled against. Far too many were riding Doughty and Quick's back. Far too few , very few, did they truly dominate for close to 60 minutes, taking an early lead and locking it down for the rest of the game. And something like 24 or 26 pts from playing a fire drill with an extra man with 1 mn left in Regulation and wining in OT? That's not good hockey. And they were lucky to be in the weakest division in the league. That malaise they played with for far too many games isn't elite and won't get you thru the playoffs, 1 playoff win in 2 yrs illustrates that.

Lombardi isn't blind, he has seen that this game is evolving in to a speed and skill game , look at the Pens. Mike Sullivan come in mid season, recognizing that speed and skill and the success that comes with it and implements a system that's built on that and they in the Cup Finals.

Lombardi' big heavy game is too hard to get thru a 82 game season, esp when other teams are using speed and skill and youth to get the job done. He's already said they have to make some changes. The system is part of that, but upgrading the defense and bottom 6 retool are also a part .

Most teams in the league have about a 5 yr window, due to the players aging, roster changes and most important ,the skill of their competition increasing. The Kings window opened in 2010/11 and the last 2 yrs they showed the strain of that weight.

They have a good core, and some promising youth in the AHL, but it's still a tough road to hoe. Even with those changes, there's no guarantee of success, esp with the tough competition in the conference. And although finishing in the top 3 should be attainable ,that's not a lock either in the division. I don't expect much from the Flames or Oilers next yr but the Coyotes will be better, lots of young talent with a yr under their belt.

I'm really curious to see how much DL is willing to spend on defense, because that might affect the decision to get a 3 line center that can produce offense and make that 3rd line a threat.
Should be an interesting summer.

 

[damacles1156]

Speed is an illusion, and in 2012 everyone was all about speed with the Canucks/Hawks rosters.

The Kings won two cups playing heavy.

Speed is an illusion, the puck moves faster than players. It's about playing fast, and making fast decisions consistently. Not skating speed.

Everyone wants speed/skill in their lineup, and it's expensive.

 

[damacles1156]

-Window is shut until the D is fixed.
-Hard to fix the D with Brown's contract.
-Could spend Lucic money on D, but then the top 6 will suck with Brown/King in it full time.
-Could inject some young defense into the top 4. Gravel/Forbort aren't ready or probably not top4. Could draft some guys, but no first round pick and high end second rounders may not make the team until Carter/Kopitar are in the old folks home. Could trade for some near ready NHL guys, but that would cost a lot.


-Kings youth didn't get a call up because they aren't significantly better then what the Kings have. Mersch/Gravel/Forbort aren't going to have the same impact as Donskoi/Hertl/Nieto/Rust/Maatta/Pouliot. They can't even beat out guys like Scuderi for a job.

-Kings system is fine. When you play guys like Schenn/Scuderi in the top 4 the system doesn't matter as those guys will make anything look like ****.

Edit: It's actually an argument for the system that the Kings were able to make it as far as they did and win 1 game in the playoffs with Scuderi/Schenn in the top4.

I agree.

Excellent post, BTW.

 

[Telos]

Speed is an illusion, and in 2012 everyone was all about speed with the Canucks/Hawks rosters.

The Kings won two cups playing heavy.

Speed is an illusion, the puck moves faster than players. It's about playing fast, and making fast decisions consistently. Not skating speed.

Everyone wants speed/skill in their lineup, and it's expensive.

I dunno, I think speed, or at least excellent skating ability, is becoming more important in today's NHL for obvious reasons. It is especially becoming more important on defense as the NHL is getting more and more athletic and faster it is becoming harder and harder to find defensemen who can skate and keep up with the forwards of the modern game.

It's the primary reason that defensemen, especially top 4 defensemen, are becoming the most sought after position and one of the most expensive to fill. There's just flat out not many guys that can keep up with the Patrick Kanes in the game anymore and all teams are starving for guys who can keep up.

We don't have to be the fastest team, but we absolutely need to have every single top 4 defenseman be capable of keeping up with the top 6 lineups of the league. One weakness in the top 4 is all it takes in this age to be down by 2 goals instantly because it will be notices and exploited in the playoffs.

 

[Omni Owl]

Scuderi should have never seen the ice on our team this last stint. Makes me think management is super out of touch.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Its not that Sutter doesn't play the youth, its that he puts them on such a short ****ing leash that some feel there isn't room for them to develop. Gravel was a good example when he turned over the puck in a bad spot, and even though he made up for it and came back down the ice and took it back, he never saw much ice time after that (and was sent down shortly after). Its different with D men, as its better for them to spend more time in the AHL and make their mistakes in lower pressure situations, but he needs to realize that these guys are going to make mistakes.

Gravel got benched after the Washington game. The play you're talking about was Calgary later in the season. That was just to give Scuderi a breather.

The Washington game was the one that ended a streak of 4 consecutive games. I think it was McNabb who got beat so Gravel went over to help leaving his side of the ice completely open. Williams got the puck, went around the net, and passed to someone for the game winning goal. Gravel got benched after that.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

so much BS in this post I dont even know where to begin.

window closed? one of the best regular seasons in the Kings history a "smoke and mirrors" show?
give me a ****ing break dude. all this alarmist, doomsday Kings talk is getting real old real fast

Regular season success means **** all when you win one game in the postseason. Where are your priorities? Do you want to be a good regular season team, or do you want to win championships? The Kings proved, TWICE, that the regular season is meaningless as long as you make the playoffs.

So all this "best regular season in Kings history" rhetoric doesn't really mean a whole lot to me, especially in this soft shootout extra point era. Or did you also forget that we would have landed decidedly in a wildcard spot if it were not for this gimmick 3v3 overtime? Get real.

This team has been a shell of its former self since Voynov and Richards fell off the cliff. Playoff-less season followed by a prompt first round exit, and you're chest thumping about a regular season record padded by 3v3 points? Again, get real.

We are in cap hell. Our captain has regressed to the point that he's been stripped of the C. We have zero blue chip prospects, and zero picks to draft blue chip prospects. We paid the price to win two Cups, and now the franchise is in dire straits, partly because of act of God-level random disasters like Voynov and Richards, partly because of bad decisions after that.

It's not alarmist BS. It's ****ing reality, dude. You can bury your head in the sand and act like everything's going to work out, but it isn't, not without a major turnaround from Captain-not-captain Albatross Contract, and a sudden turnaround on the blueline.

The 15/16 Kings were the very definition of smoke and mirrors, even their advanced stats--a lot of weak perimeter pressure with few quality scoring chances. Meanwhile, they took undisciplined penalties all year, blew third period leads, blew the division lead, and played ring around the dumpster diving rosy on the blueline with reclamation projects and never-was prospects.

This team is a long way from contending--15 playoff wins, in fact. If you think that's excusable because of pretty ****ing regular season record, then more power to you. I choose to live in reality. And reality ain't looking so hot for this team right now.

So I hope they prove me wrong; I really do. But I've seen a lot of bad Kings teams. And I've seen some really great Kings teams just recently. And this team, as they stand today, aren't great. Their postseason success since 2014 is all the evidence I need.

 

[damacles1156]

I dunno, I think speed, or at least excellent skating ability, is becoming more important in today's NHL for obvious reasons. It is especially becoming more important on defense as the NHL is getting more and more athletic and faster it is becoming harder and harder to find defensemen who can skate and keep up with the forwards of the modern game.

It's the primary reason that defensemen, especially top 4 defensemen, are becoming the most sought after position and one of the most expensive to fill. There's just flat out not many guys that can keep up with the Patrick Kanes in the game anymore and all teams are starving for guys who can keep up.

We don't have to be the fastest team, but we absolutely need to have every single top 4 defenseman be capable of keeping up with the top 6 lineups of the league. One weakness in the top 4 is all it takes in this age to be down by 2 goals instantly because it will be notices and exploited in the playoffs.

You are describing what pundits(NHL folks) has been saying for about a decade.

The Kings won two cups, with the league supposedly turning all rosters into pond hockey speed guys.

Is someone like Willie Mitchell fast ? No, he plays fast though. The Kings desperately need a Veteran Defender like Willie Mitchell.

 

[Telos]

You are describing what pundits(NHL folks) has been saying for about a decade.

The Kings won two cups, with the league supposedly turning all rosters into pond hockey speed guys.

Is someone like Willie Mitchell fast ? No, he plays fast though. The Kings desperately need a Veteran Defender like Willie Mitchell.

Yeah, but how many with Mitchell's stick and reach are in the game? Most of those defensemen are a step behind and taking penalties non-stop. While mobile defensemen that can skate with high end forwards are rare, the shutdown Willie Mitchells of the world that can make it work and still shutdown the opponent despite lack of footspeed are rarer. The Kings need to stay mobile on the backend rather than double down on Matt Greenes and Luke Schenns.

 

[Steve Zissou]

Whatever the case, the window is closed. The 15/16 regular season success was smoke and mirrors.

I don't think we should be focusing on any big UFA or trade. We should bear down, hold on to picks, and develop a pipeline again. Our "win now" window is done. We're not winning now or in the near future, not with this roster and the cap where it is.

This is EXACTLY why this board is such a drag sometimes. Seriously, get a grip.

The opposite happened when the Kings entered the post season as an 8th seed then proceeded to massacre every damn good team in their path on to the cup.

Hell, if you really want to get all emotional about it, pretend you're a Sharks fan.

 

[Kingsfan1]

People keep acting like Toffoli/Pearson/King/Nolan/Muzzin/Slava/Shore/McNabb, were not worked in at a young age under Sutter.

So what coach worked those youngsters in ? Was there a different coach for the Kings in 2012-2016 ?

What the hell are you folks talking about ?

That was also before all the success . I think the succes got to everybodys head as Dean stated himself and they lost track of whats important . They stopped integrating youth into the lineup . With youth comes energy , more hunger that rubs off on the others in the locker room and some creativity. However, we took a different approach because everyone including in the bottom 6 was pretty much guaranteed their roster spot.

 

[damacles1156]

Yeah, but how many with Mitchell's stick and reach are in the game? Most of those defensemen are a step behind and taking penalties non-stop. While mobile defensemen that can skate with high end forwards are rare, the shutdown Willie Mitchells of the world that can make it work and still shutdown the opponent despite lack of footspeed are rarer. The Kings need to stay mobile on the backend rather than double down on Matt Greenes and Luke Schenns.

Plenty of Defenders in the league, that are not fast , but play fast. The Kings problem is, the haven't (developed or acquired/Traded/UFA) a replacement for Mitchell/Slava

That showed up in spades this season

 

[damacles1156]

This is EXACTLY why this board is such a drag sometimes. Seriously, get a grip.

The opposite happened when the Kings entered the post season as an 8th seed then proceeded to massacre every damn good team in their path on to the cup.

Hell, if you really want to get all emotional about it, pretend you're a Sharks fan.

That season, myself plus others, thought the 2012 team was trash, and cannon fodder for playoff teams. That was about late March that year too. I remember trashing that roster, till the Kings flipped that switch come round one.

So I don't get how anyone can say the 2016 team was smoke and mirrors. It was a good team that got beat, by a better team, that wanted it more. With some tweaks, the 2016/17 Kings will be a good team again. Hopefully they are healthy for the playoffs, and the top dogs perform better.

 

[The Night King]

This is EXACTLY why this board is such a drag sometimes. Seriously, get a grip.

The opposite happened when the Kings entered the post season as an 8th seed then proceeded to massacre every damn good team in their path on to the cup.

Hell, if you really want to get all emotional about it, pretend you're a Sharks fan.

Glad I've stayed away for the most part. I was a chicken little when we were getting eliminated. But I've gotten over it and believe this team still has one of the better rosters in the league, albeit with some holes.

 

[Johnny Utah]

I think speed and playing a solid two way game are extremely important. Pitts has a few forwards who were in the ECHL then AHL and now in the Stanley Cup finals. Sullivan knew the players who's game translates well in the NHL and they are succeeding. Guys like Rust didn't have eye popping stats.

Sutter did this years ago with King and Nolan when the NHL played a more heavy game. He needs to poach Ontario for players who can play well in today's NHL.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

That season, myself plus others, thought the 2012 team was trash, and cannon fodder for playoff teams. That was about late March that year too. I remember trashing that roster, till the Kings flipped that switch come round one.

So I don't get how anyone can say the 2016 team was smoke and mirrors. It was a good team that got beat, by a better team, that wanted it more. With some tweaks, the 2016/17 Kings will be a good team again. Hopefully they are healthy for the playoffs, and the top dogs perform better.

Comparing the 2012 team to the 2016 team is ********, Damacles, and you know it. We all saw how good they were post deadline, and we all believed they could beat the Canucks. And all the statistics were backing us up. It wasn't about a switch flip--they got Carter, which rounded out the top six, and Brown played way out of his depth for 40ish games.

We trashed the 2012 team pre-Carter trade because sans that trade they would have been fodder in the first round.

This 2016 team was an entirely different story. It's disingenuous of you to brush this off as one good team getting beat by a better team. You can't in one thread claim that the Kings were one of the worst teams in the playoffs, and here claim that they're still a good team needing a minor tweak or two. Which is it?

This 2016 team had the exact opposite trajectory of 2012--world beaters in October and November, no shows in March and April. Everything about this 2016 team was Opposite Day to the Kings teams we've seen do well over the past several years.

If the Sharks series goes down to the wire, maybe I'm singing a different tune. But that series wasn't even close. And if the gulf is that large between SC finalists and us, then no, a "few tweaks" won't close the gap.

There's a lot wrong with this team and that was clear when they were bleeding points down the stretch and pissing away leads. You can shrug this off if you want, but when your captain is getting his letter stripped after two championships, there's a problem.

I know this is all negative crap and that really rubs some people the wrong way, but it's how I see it. I'm not a rah rah cheerleader always believe kind of sports fan and I never have been. I'm not afraid to trash my team when they deserve it. Sometimes it's okay to call a spade a spade. The Kings have imploded two years in a row now. That's cause for concern, especially coming off Cup-WCF-Cup. We have too many major holes that we don't have the assets nor prospects to fill. This goes beyond just a roster tweak, IMO.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

This is EXACTLY why this board is such a drag sometimes. Seriously, get a grip.

The opposite happened when the Kings entered the post season as an 8th seed then proceeded to massacre every damn good team in their path on to the cup.

Hell, if you really want to get all emotional about it, pretend you're a Sharks fan.

I don't understand what any of this is supposed to mean.

What does the 2012 run have to do with today?

 

[kingsholygrail]

Scuderi should have never seen the ice on our team this last stint. Makes me think management is super out of touch.

He wouldn't have if he wasn't outplaying the other guys.

Comparing the 2012 team to the 2016 team is ********, Damacles, and you know it. We all saw how good they were post deadline, and we all believed they could beat the Canucks. And all the statistics were backing us up. It wasn't about a switch flip--they got Carter, which rounded out the top six, and Brown played way out of his depth for 40ish games.

We trashed the 2012 team pre-Carter trade because sans that trade they would have been fodder in the first round.

This 2016 team was an entirely different story. It's disingenuous of you to brush this off as one good team getting beat by a better team. You can't in one thread claim that the Kings were one of the worst teams in the playoffs, and here claim that they're still a good team needing a minor tweak or two. Which is it?

This 2016 team had the exact opposite trajectory of 2012--world beaters in October and November, no shows in March and April. Everything about this 2016 team was Opposite Day to the Kings teams we've seen do well over the past several years.

If the Sharks series goes down to the wire, maybe I'm singing a different tune. But that series wasn't even close. And if the gulf is that large between SC finalists and us, then no, a "few tweaks" won't close the gap.

There's a lot wrong with this team and that was clear when they were bleeding points down the stretch and pissing away leads. You can shrug this off if you want, but when your captain is getting his letter stripped after two championships, there's a problem.

I know this is all negative crap and that really rubs some people the wrong way, but it's how I see it. I'm not a rah rah cheerleader always believe kind of sports fan and I never have been. I'm not afraid to trash my team when they deserve it. Sometimes it's okay to call a spade a spade. The Kings have imploded two years in a row now. That's cause for concern, especially coming off Cup-WCF-Cup. We have too many major holes that we don't have the assets nor prospects to fill. This goes beyond just a roster tweak, IMO.

Every game but game 5 was close.

 

[KingsFan7824]

That was also before all the success . I think the succes got to everybodys head as Dean stated himself and they lost track of whats important . They stopped integrating youth into the lineup . With youth comes energy , more hunger that rubs off on the others in the locker room and some creativity. However, we took a different approach because everyone including in the bottom 6 was pretty much guaranteed their roster spot.

Toffoli got his first taste in 2013, which was his first pro season. He ended up playing in 12 of 18 playoff games. Muzzin also was a regular, although Mitchell and Greene being out for so long helped that, but Sutter lived with Muzzin's train wreck mistakes, to the point where he only didn't play in 4 games.

Toffoli became a bigger part of the team in the 13-14 regular season, and Pearson was given a chance, culminating in 24 out of 26 playoff games in an important role.

McNabb probably played a little more than the Kings were thinking in 14-15, but play he did. Like 2013, it was because another defenseman was gone, but he played. Shore got the minutes Richards was no longer getting.

This year, Andreoff, Shore, Mersch, Forbort, Dowd, and Gravel all got more time than in previous seasons, and some, if not all of them, look to get more time next year.

With youth comes energy, but also mistakes and inexperience. Yes, Scuderi sucks and can't play anymore, and made mistakes too. But they haven't stopped integrating youth into the lineup. It's just that the entire AHL team doesn't make up the Kings from the start of the year. That Lombardi brought Scuderi in, and that Sutter played him, won't hurt Gravel or Forbort in the future. Would you rather see either of those two as opposed to an old player? Yes. They won't not make it in the long run because of that specific thing though.

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

Every game but game 5 was close.

The Kings were vastly outplayed in that series, it was pathetic

 

[PJ Kings Hockey]

I'm enjoying reading the different points of view, especially the critical ones. I'm somewhat too optimistic at heart, so getting a few cold hard doses of realism helps offset my internal overestimation of our level of skill/ability to compete against the best.

 

[Thrice]

Speed is an illusion, and in 2012 everyone was all about speed with the Canucks/Hawks rosters.

The Kings won two cups playing heavy.

Speed is an illusion, the puck moves faster than players. It's about playing fast, and making fast decisions consistently. Not skating speed.

Everyone wants speed/skill in their lineup, and it's expensive.

Illusion? Fast skaters/forecheckers force defenders to make faster decisions which should lead to more mistakes, no?

 

[lumbergh]

I don't think it's a matter of speed vs heavy game these days. The Kings need more players that can make things happen, be dangerous on the offensive side of the puck. Toffoli, Carter, Pearson, Muzzin, Doughty, Martinez. This is the direction of the league. Not guys like King, Lewis, Schenn, and Scuderi, who spend most of the game facing away from the net with the puck around their skates. You can play a heavy game, but you have to be a threat to score when you're playing that heavy game.

Take a guy like Mersch. If he can enforce his will around the net, then he'll be an effective player on the Kings even if he doesn't skate like the wind. We'll see if his game translates to the NHL, but I'm really interested to see if he can supplant King on the third line.

Now look at a guy like Shore. Seems like he has everything the Kings want, but is completely ineffective at the NHL level. No apparent ability to create offense for himself or his linemates.

 

[Scottkmlps]

Illusion? Fast skaters/forecheckers force defenders to make faster decisions which should lead to more mistakes, no?

The speed of the transition game is the biggest part of the Kings game that has gone missing from the bottom 2 pairings of the defense. The Kings had that speed transition game down to a 't' in 2012 through 2014. It went missing when the Kings lost Mitchell & Voynov. The last 2 years, they've only had Doughty, Muzzin & Martinez that could play the quick transition game from the backend. McNabb & Schenn can't play that game. Scuderi lost that part of the game.
That is what the Kings need to get back to. They need their bottom 3 defenders to be quick in the transition game as well. From the small sample size that I saw, Gravel has that in his game. So that's one in their system that they could plant into their bottom 6. Call me crazy, but if it were up to me, I'd put Gravel alongside Martinez on the 2nd pairing and leave him there, even if a mistake or two was made.