Bridgeport Islanders Discussion 2021-22: Playoffs Start May 2

[scott99]

All part of the plan...... to move the ST to Nassau next year?

They’d have worse attendance than the crappy Islander’s years.

 

[dlawong]

This isn't entirely true.

Verhaeghe started to prosper under Thompson's tutelage with 29 points and a +12 in 45 AHL games after having killed it in the ECHL.

Snow wanted a verifiable and promising #3 goalie in the system. Snow used Verhaeghe - who was actually the only real return for Grabner at that point - as an asset to obtain Gudlevskis, who was coming off several solid AHL seasons and had cups of coffee in the NHL.

They didn't give up on Verhaeghe. They certainly didn't let him go.

He was an asset and they used him as an asset to pick up another asset that Snow felt filled another hole in the organization.

In hindsight, although Verhaeghe required a ton of AHL time to get where he's at, the move did nothing for the Islanders.

Important here:
He didn't flounder under Thompson's tutelage. Rather, he started coming into his own.



The question is, which of the Islanders' forward prospects have possibly seen their careers hit a wall, or not develop as they should, BECAUSE of Thompson?

I think people will throw out the names Dal Colle and Ho-Sang.

I watch Dal Colle, who was clipping at a PPG pace in the AHL when he was brought up permanently, and see a player who DOES NOT have the hands to play in the NHL. He is also a choppy skater and the kind of player who spends huge amounts of energy getting little done. He's not what they call an "economic" player. He often stands in his own way more than anyone else. Due to the big body and a willingness to do whatever it takes, they're trying to convert him into something else, because it may be the only way he sticks in the NHL.

Is this Thompson's fault?

I scouted him internationally in his draft year and saw nothing except a shot. He was completely dependent on others to create and get things done. The head wasn't there. The skating wasn't there. But he had a shot and a nose for the net.

Do we see this shot in the NHL? That's what he was drafted for, but are we seeing it? No. Why? Because the NHL game is too quick for him. He simply cannot cock and release in time. He isn't apt enough at this level to get that done. His biggest weapon is an absolute non-factor.

Ho-Sang?

For all the talent he's got, he's produced precious little at the pro level and his one real promising cameo in the NHL came for an Islanders team that played such a run-n-gun system that it lead the NHL in goals against by a country mile.

Wherever there was accountability, be it the NHL, AHL or now SHL, he's flunked.

Is this Thompson's fault?



This is Niederreiter's time with the Isles:
View attachment 395614
The Isles nearly destroyed him with that 2011-12 season.

Thompson wasn't even the coach in the 2012-13 season.

That Snow and Niederreiter's agent had problems is no secret, but asking if Thompson had something to do with this is not possible according to the coaching timeline.



The Sound Tigers' GM is Lou's son, Chris. I think Lou knows EVERYTHING that's going on down there.

To be honest, if you know Lamoriello, then you'll know that Thompson is EXACTLY the kind of coach he wants guiding the minor league team.



Actually, Beau only played 3 games in BPort.

In addition, Nelson and Lee basically had as much overall time in BPort as Cizikas, so they're the same case study.

Come to think of it, only Casey's first AHL season was under Thompson's tutelage.



Of players in this organization who had NHL talent and pedigree, I can think of only Niederreiter und Ho-Sang as guys who have asked for a trade. Am I missing someone?

So, how do you deduce that the situation in BPort is going to be having draft picks either failing or demanding trades?



It's important that you mention this, because nary a team in the entire league has been a competitor the past two season with THAT many homegrown and fostered Dmen on their NHL roster. Depending on who you ask in the business, opinions about Thompson will be VERY high based on that output alone. I mean, each of these guys had 2+ whole seasons under Thompson's tutelage in BPort.



Interesting idea, as the staff only seems to consist of Thompson, Boguniecki, Carkner, and Ostroy, none listed as a skills development coach.

I think what people simply have to take into consideration is that most high impact forwards in the NHL didn't really go the AHL route. The second wave of such players usually only spend one year on the farm and have the kind of talent where just playing and getting pro experience is all they need, not their being formed into an offensive player of impact. That's already there.

There are plenty of late bloomers out there and also mid-round draft picks who need 3+ years of minor league processing before being ready for some type of role at the NHL level.

So, I always ask the following:
What highly promising forward in the system spent 2+ years with Thompson, was given up on, and went somewhere else to make a career of it in the NHL, much less as an offensive impact player?

You mention Verhaeghe above, but he doesn't fit this criteria.

Will it be Ho-Sang? Could be, but isn't looking like that just now. There's time.

So who else comes into question?

I can't think of a single example. Not a one.

This tells me that the only forwards the Islanders drafted between 2010-2018 who would prove to have what it takes to be an NHL player of some manner are already here. They're already on the Island. This even includes Bellows and Wahlstrom.

CAVEAT:
I too wish that our top picks who've been in the AHL would have killed it, been scoring sensations, and then found an offensive role on the team. But what we've seen is that we just haven't drafted much NHL talent in the forward ranks, especially after the 2009 draft. Barzal and Beau were a big haul. Nelson in 2010 was a goodin'.

But otherwise, we've just been lousy overall forward drafters for the better part of ten years.

We can't really put it any other way when looking at what's become of the forwards we've taken in the first round, often in top 6 spots.

And certainly, I too have my doubts when I see a kid like Holmstrom here in BPort. Hard to believe he'd have gone in the 1st round whatsoever, had it not been for the Islanders. Then they brought him to the AHL immediately as an 18-year-old after he missed the majority of the prior season to injuries. Heck, I don't think a team in the entire league would have pulled him out of HV71 within the first two years of that draft. That's how unorthodox that is.

But is that Thompson's fault that the organization made that decision and planted Simon there as an 18-year-old?

Is it Thompson's fault that he gets Dal Colle to being a PPG producer in the AHL, but that offense doesn't translate to the faster NHL?

I tend to look at a kid like Koivula, a 4th rounder whose biggest manko was his skating, and see how he came off the left wing and was actually turned into a #1/2 AHL center in his first North American season, and in a dog-eat-dog league like the AHL no less. Dunno what his future in the NHL will be, but that's something I don't think any ol' coach does.

Alas, with Bellows and Wahlstrom up with the Isles, I really don't see any forward in BPort who we can expect anything of anytime soon other than maybe Koivula and the newly acquired Timashov.

But I do see a coach there who has a track record of developing NHL Dmen and he's currently working with Wilde, Bolduc, Hutton, Vande Sompel, and Wotherspoon, all guys who have various NHL aspirations.

That alone is a major argument for keeping this guy in charge down there, if you ask me.

Thank you for your clarification and good analysis. I do hope Isles will focus on drafting forwards more based on their NHL ready offensive skill sets (such as skating, quick & accurate shot release, good puck protection and passing skills, and adequate hockey IQ allowing room for improvement, strong work ethics including conditioning, coachable, and has decent size). If they lack defensive skill to play for the NHL team, they can work on these in minor pro league for a couple of years before coming up to NHL or better yet focus on their defensive game post draft in junior, Europe, or college). You are probably right that AHL is not a good place for developing the offensive skill so the prospect must already possess these prior to draft.

However I do hope that BBT going forward will start making to the playoff more often and able to advance further to give their prospects some chances to play in a highly competitive environment, the playoff. They probably need decent goaltending down there for this to happen. It is also a bit odd though why certain AHL teams seem to be able to get to the post season more consistently than other than teams. Although I do not have the stat to back up this as I have not yet fully checked the AHL playoff history. I just kind of remember certain teams for making AHL playoff consecutively in recent years, like the Marlies and Bruins. What are the keys to their consistent success?

 

[Wanderson]

I think it’s sad that this team has been bad for years. Isn’t it time to do some major changes with both the squad and the leadership behind the bench?

I doubt this environment is beneficial for our prospects, such as Otto. How many players has taken the step from BST to the Isles - and stayed - during the last couple of years? I can’t think of any.

 

[MJF]

I think it’s sad that this team has been bad for years. Isn’t it time to do some major changes with both the squad and the leadership behind the bench?

I doubt this environment is beneficial for our prospects, such as Otto. How many players has taken the step from BST to the Isles - and stayed - during the last couple of years? I can’t think of any.

Rick DiPietro
Trent Hunter
Bruno Gervais
Frans Nielsen
Blake Comeau
Matt Martin
Casey Cizikas
Brock Nelson
Calvin deHaan
Travis Hamonic
Anders Lee
Scott Mayfield
Ryan Pulock
Adam Pelech

I'm going to stop my list here.

Our first defense pair both developed in Bridgeport, ffs.

Maybe what you really are wondering is why our AHL team never graduated a star player to the Islanders?

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Thank you for your clarification and good analysis. I do hope Isles will focus on drafting forwards more based on their NHL ready offensive skill sets (such as skating, quick & accurate shot release, good puck protection and passing skills, and adequate hockey IQ allowing room for improvement, strong work ethics including conditioning, coachable, and has decent size). If they lack defensive skill to play for the NHL team, they can work on these in minor pro league for a couple of years before coming up to NHL or better yet focus on their defensive game post draft in junior, Europe, or college). You are probably right that AHL is not a good place for developing the offensive skill so the prospect must already possess these prior to draft.

I honestly don't think the staff has been grabbing kids simply because they're, well, already pretty proficient in a defensive capacity.

You list a lot of attractive traits and truth is, the first round is the best place to get the kind of players who may have most of those aspects, but after that - and with each round - the packages dwindle and the staffs are picking one or two of the exceptional things a kid has or looking at players who just seem to have overall decent packages, even if nothing sticks out per se.

The AHL is a VERY important league as a developmental league, but it is more about either A) giving a kid with undoubtable abilities time to adjust to pro hockey and dealing with people who have "man strength" or B) developing a kid into an option or role on the NHL squad in the future. Seen as such, it's still an incredibly important tool and step for a good half of the players who end up in the NHL.

However I do hope that BBT going forward will start making to the playoff more often and able to advance further to give their prospects some chances to play in a highly competitive environment, the playoff. They probably need decent goaltending down there for this to happen. It is also a bit odd though why certain AHL teams seem to be able to get to the post season more consistently than other than teams. Although I do not have the stat to back up this as I have not yet fully checked the AHL playoff history. I just kind of remember certain teams for making AHL playoff consecutively in recent years, like the Marlies and Bruins. What are the keys to their consistent success?

Winning at the AHL level is a great thing IF your own prospects and kids you're planning with are in the middle of it all. They need to be cogs in that winning. This has been evident in recent years when Toronto, Tampa Bay, Carolina, and Dallas' AHL affiliates were winning championships. These team now have a handful of those players on their teams.

Most of these teams also had a few very important veteran elements playing key roles as well.

I have thought that BPort has looked "right" on paper several times in recent years, including heading into last season. That team fell apart quickly after a few young players simply retired, several vets got injured for the long haul (like Fritz), and a few others just no longer provided what they had been providing (like Bernier).

I do however think it's very important to have a team full of guys with realistic NHL ambitions. Veteran help is great, but there's a differnce between a 32-year-old has been and a 27-year-old who still has a last shot.

And like everything in team sports, there needs to be some sustained chemistry. Some AHL clubs see guys coming in and out all season long, without a real core being established.

 

[Thrasymachus]

Rick DiPietro
Trent Hunter
Bruno Gervais
Frans Nielsen
Blake Comeau
Matt Martin
Casey Cizikas
Brock Nelson
Calvin deHaan
Travis Hamonic
Anders Lee
Scott Mayfield
Ryan Pulock
Adam Pelech

I'm going to stop my list here.

Our first defense pair both developed in Bridgeport, ffs.

Maybe what you really are wondering is why our AHL team never graduated a star player to the Islanders?

Not gonna lie... this is a pretty underwhelming list from a forward POV...

 

[Wanderson]

Rick DiPietro
Trent Hunter
Bruno Gervais
Frans Nielsen
Blake Comeau
Matt Martin
Casey Cizikas
Brock Nelson
Calvin deHaan
Travis Hamonic
Anders Lee
Scott Mayfield
Ryan Pulock
Adam Pelech

I'm going to stop my list here.

Our first defense pair both developed in Bridgeport, ffs.

Maybe what you really are wondering is why our AHL team never graduated a star player to the Islanders?

”... during the last couple of seasons.”

And some of the players you listed have already retried. I think the pool in general is extremely thin.

 

[MJF]

Not gonna lie... this is a pretty underwhelming list from a forward POV...

You're right. It is.

Draft better forwards.

 

[MJF]

”... during the last couple of seasons.”

And some of the players you listed have already retried. I think the pool in general is extremely thin.

That's why I never thought it was an issue of Brent Thompson can't "coach up" these guys. We don't draft well when it comes to forwards.

Thompson's a hockey coach, not a magician.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

You're right. It is.

Draft better forwards.

Interestingly, despite few changes to the scouting staff since Lamoriello stepped in, the team has drafted forwards with 11 of its 18 picks during his tenure.

Wahlstrom was the first to make it to BPort and is now the furthest along. Holmstrom was the second and is in his second AHL season.

Jenkins, Bibeau and Coskey are the other ones to make it to Bridgeport in this short period of time, with this 24-game campaign being their first and the latter two were D3 draftees anyways (and they're on AHL contracts).

I suspect that if the OHL does indeed start up a season (also 20-24 games), we might see Jenkins reassigned there. Dunno.

Also, it may be worth adding that UFA college signings jobst and Carpenter were added on ELCs while MacLean, Neumann, and Brown were added on as UFA signees on AHL contracts.

What does this all mean?

At least it would seem to mean that Lamoriello quickly recognized a dearth of forward prospects in the system. I'd argue that we're still seeing a dearth of true center prospects, but Barzal, Nelson, and Pageau are all long-term on the Island and I'd suspect that Cizikas is not going to just walk away without seeing how things could work out here, especially with Martin sticking around another 3+ seasons.

 

[dlawong]

I honestly don't think the staff has been grabbing kids simply because they're, well, already pretty proficient in a defensive capacity.

You list a lot of attractive traits and truth is, the first round is the best place to get the kind of players who may have most of those aspects, but after that - and with each round - the packages dwindle and the staffs are picking one or two of the exceptional things a kid has or looking at players who just seem to have overall decent packages, even if nothing sticks out per se.

My reply: Yes it is hard to get all those elite offensive skills in a package outside the top 10 picks in the first round. However if you can get 2 or 3 of the most important ones and if their overall offensive skills is superior to their defensive skills then you probably can groom them in minor pro league, Euro league, or college as long as they are coachable and driven. The only exception to the rule is that I will always prefer to draft a center to a winger with close skill set score even if that player turn out to be able to only play at winger position in the NHL. Why? because knowing how to win at face-off consistently is a valuable asset in the NHL. Yes, you may learn to improve in this area but if comes naturally it is much better.

I would say that how a team draft would depend where the team is at. A bottom rebuilding team probably prefers to draft players ready to play the 200 foot game in NHL sooner instead of offensive stars with very little defensive acumen, unless they excel at or has all top offensive skills/traits (1. skating, 2. quick/accurate shots, 3. hockey IQ, 4. puck protection and passing, and 5. size or strength). Contending teams with very little salary cap space however can wait for prospects with at least 2 or 3 of the skill sets with questionable defensive acumen to develop for at least 2 to 3 years before stepping into NHL. It is much easier to acquire role players for short term via a trade or UFA than acquiring players who can contribute in the most important aspect of the game - scoring via goal or primary assist without paying a heavy price, especially when there is no cap room to fit their existing contract or asking price.

As for skill players drafted in lower round, there has been actually many cases where they have been overlooked for their offensive skills by scouts especially in a deep draft year because some teams just loved to draft defensive prospects instead of picking the overall best available one or maybe their GM loves forward prospects with consistent 200 ft games, admire their competitive games, or is awed by their size.

I think the reverse is true for defense prospects though because it is much harder to develop D prospects especially if they can't be reliable to commit to play defense hard. The minimum attributes that I think D prospect must possess is their ability to back skate quickly with real good balance, good with first pass, potentially have adequate size or strength for boxing out opponent, intense battle level and can handle pressure well consistently. I am not that high on drafting D prospect base on their shooting skill alone as scoring many goals from the point in junior does not always translate to scoring in NHL. Most of the pro goalies are too good at tracking pucks and it is much harder to find the lane timely to beat the goalies from the point plus when you shoot way too hard you have a good chance to break the stick. When offensively skilled D has bad injuries and no longer can skate as well (knee/ankle/leg) or shoot as hard (hand/wrist), without their high defensive acumen their value will change quickly from positive to negative and team may stuck with a highly paid D that is extremely hard to unload. My reply ends here.

The AHL is a VERY important league as a developmental league, but it is more about either A) giving a kid with undoubtable abilities time to adjust to pro hockey and dealing with people who have "man strength" or B) developing a kid into an option or role on the NHL squad in the future. Seen as such, it's still an incredibly important tool and step for a good half of the players who end up in the NHL.



Winning at the AHL level is a great thing IF your own prospects and kids you're planning with are in the middle of it all. They need to be cogs in that winning. This has been evident in recent years when Toronto, Tampa Bay, Carolina, and Dallas' AHL affiliates were winning championships. These team now have a handful of those players on their teams.

Most of these teams also had a few very important veteran elements playing key roles as well.

I have thought that BPort has looked "right" on paper several times in recent years, including heading into last season. That team fell apart quickly after a few young players simply retired, several vets got injured for the long haul (like Fritz), and a few others just no longer provided what they had been providing (like Bernier).

I do however think it's very important to have a team full of guys with realistic NHL ambitions. Veteran help is great, but there's a differnce between a 32-year-old has been and a 27-year-old who still has a last shot.

And like everything in team sports, there needs to be some sustained chemistry. Some AHL clubs see guys coming in and out all season long, without a real core being established.

 

[dlawong]

Another factor in drafting is not just the draft but the planning for the draft 3 year ahead in advance because you need to know if a draft is deep loaded with top end prospects or not. If you trade away too many top picks in a deep year you can lose opportunity to pick up real good prospects. If you are not a high market team with a history of attracting big name star, you have to commit to build or improve your team via draft.

For example I read the hockey magazine and I paid special attention to what they say about elite prospect profile that is available for draft in the years following the current draft then I google about them. I was impressed with Matthews profile long before hockey future board start to talk about him. I would imagine pro scouts would have way more reliable resource than I have via a hockey magazine. Of course you do have to track the injury history and development afterwards because injuries or off ice situations can greatly impact a player's development as well as physical growth.

Drafting is not a one year project but I believe a three year project and a lot of trades can also impact how you are able to draft couple years down the road. Having said this I am so far impressed of the 2022 draft as I noticed there were quite a few 16 years old players making the WJC this year and some of them showed ability to compete with older players. I would prefer that Isles do not trade their first 2 round picks away for that draft year as their prospect pipeline is already thin without enough of them with high ceilings. These players may not play immediately step in but will impact how the team play in about 3 to 4 years.

 

[Thrasymachus]

You're right. It is.

Draft better forwards.

Or maybe develop them better?

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Another factor in drafting is not just the draft but the planning for the draft 3 year ahead in advance because you need to know if a draft is deep loaded with top end prospects or not. If you trade away too many top picks in a deep year you can lose opportunity to pick up real good prospects. If you are not a high market team with a history of attracting big name star, you have to commit to build or improve your team via draft.

In deciding to make deals, teams certainly do make a prognosis about how strong a draft (and the ones coming) is or isn't, showing a different readiness to move picks or not based on that prognosis. That's for sure.

And yes, teams that cannot or are poor at getting top talent off the UFA market, to which the Islanders traditionally belong, have to approach the draft differently. It has different level of importance. Interesting to take note of, considering we've only had five picks in two straight drafts.

That is why it's bitter to see a team like the Rangers, which have a decisive advantage on the free agent market, also getting high draft picks and having three straight years with 8 or more picks to make. That just hurts for the "mortals" in the league when it comes this type of thing.

For example I read the hockey magazine and I paid special attention to what they say about elite prospect profile that is available for draft in the years following the current draft then I google about them. I was impressed with Matthews profile long before hockey future board start to talk about him. I would imagine pro scouts would have way more reliable resource than I have via a hockey magazine. Of course you do have to track the injury history and development afterwards because injuries or off ice situations can greatly impact a player's development as well as physical growth.

At the moment, there's more material online in preparation for a draft than ever before. And the providers of that info are somehow all different and yet the same.

Just how good, accurate, and trustworthy that material is all depends on who is writing for it and just how he/she is getting his/her information.

Should those people actually be in the rinks watching the players, then the question becomes: "How much do they know and can recognize?"

We see NHL teams flopping on picks all the time. Who actually knows more?

People say it's a crapshoot, but it's not. The problem is that there are certain things you can recognize and pinpoint up to age 18. There's no guarantees what happens to these guys after that. The clubs draft them and then look to foster them according to their wishes once the players are signed and part of the organization (if not via other influences beforehand).

Drafting is not a one year project but I believe a three year project and a lot of trades can also impact how you are able to draft couple years down the road. Having said this I am so far impressed of the 2022 draft as I noticed there were quite a few 16 years old players making the WJC this year and some of them showed ability to compete with older players. I would prefer that Isles do not trade their first 2 round picks away for that draft year as their prospect pipeline is already thin without enough of them with high ceilings. These players may not play immediately step in but will impact how the team play in about 3 to 4 years.

You know what... every year produces NHL talent. Every single one. And now more than ever.

I've mentioned this in other threads along the way, but the enhancements in nutrition, health, sleep, skills development, ice skating, etc. in all of the major ice hockey countries and a handful of the not-so-major ice hockey countries is at an all-time high and more quality is being fostered than ever before. There is no more "bad draft". The pool has become far too good.

Nowadays, if a draft class is considered good, then the pundits are probably referring to the level and/or amount of the upper end talents.

There are going to be future NHLers coming out of the back ends of the drafts all the time.

Who can find them and how often is what's going to put some teams ahead of the others.

This said, the 2022 draft looks like it'll be fine, but every group of 16-year-olds that looks interesting usually includes a few who'll drop off by the time they're 20 years old. The 2021 draft is going to be a real nice one. Especially for those who treasure Dmen.

And a really fascinating aspect of it will be the fact that PLENTY of players went undrafted last fall, because teams were staying away from the CHL kids who'd have to be signed within 2 years. The pandemic pushed them out of the fray as the teams knew they'd have precious little development time this season and maybe even next. In addition, this year is seeing boatloads of 17 and 18-year-olds playing pro around Europe (often because the junior leagues have been cancelled or suspended), so there are some real unique dynamics to next summer's draft.

Sooo, what does this all mean for the Bridgeport Soundtigers??? Prolly shoulda taken this chat to another thread...

 

[scottywiper]

Wrong thread

 

[DarkHorse2]

At least Thompson is teaching the system, as the Baby Isles give up last minute goals too.

 

[IslesNorway]

Just equalised but shots are 18-3 Hartford

 

[BarzyClub]

Just equalised but shots are 18-3 Hartford

Hartford dominating . Zero offense being generated by Bst. Helgeson got the goal and looked surprised that it actually went in. Lol Skarek holding Bst in this one.

 

[BarzyClub]

Hartford goes ahead 2-1 but Simon Holmstrom scores on a screen shot to tie it 2-2.

 

[BarzyClub]

Holmstrom draws a penalty with some strong puck handling on the ozone. Looking at his skill set I think he’d fit in nicely as a Bailey-esque playmaker for Nelson. Very smart player.

 

[BarzyClub]

Hutton and Bolduc look pretty solid out there not getting caught out of position defensively with Hutton getting a couple of shots on net.

They’re trying Bolduc on the umbrella PP which needs some work. He’s got a heckuva shot.

Wilde looks like he’s a bit lost defensively and is going to need some work. He makes some bad decisions defensively and looks to be a bit of a project. He’s got the tools but needs work on the toolbox.

BSt woke up in the second . Shots 25-13 HAR

 

[BarzyClub]

Defensive miscue by BSt d early in the 3rd and it’s 3-2 HAR.

 

[MJF]

Bolduc just scored. Another blast from the right wall.

 

[PWJunior]

Bolduc ties it!

 

[BarzyClub]

Bolduc ties it 3-3