Brian Leetch vs Paul Coffey opinions on HFBOARDS vs other Forums

[ncmike]

He did and I'm not taking that away from him. I just think all his Norris Trophies came from age 30-40 when most of the better dmen had retired or were past their primes. Also if you play long enough you can bring in some numbers. A guy like Scott Stevens thought of mostly as a defensive dman even had 900 plus points. I think Lidstrom is top 10 but not "easily top 5"


I like Brad Park a lot. He did lose out to Orr and Potvin in his day. I do not have him in my top 10 but possibly 10-15.

To put Park outside the top ten as you do is to be a bit ignorant. He’s clearly top 5 and lots of historians have him at two. To come in 2nd constantly to Orr and then Potvin is a testament to how great he was. He was runner up more times than any other defenseman in history. That alone puts in the top 5. Perhaps top 3.

 

[ncmike]

He did and I'm not taking that away from him. I just think all his Norris Trophies came from age 30-40 when most of the better dmen had retired or were past their primes. Also if you play long enough you can bring in some numbers. A guy like Scott Stevens thought of mostly as a defensive dman even had 900 plus points. I think Lidstrom is top 10 but not "easily top 5"


I like Brad Park a lot. He did lose out to Orr and Potvin in his day. I do not have him in my top 10 but possibly 10-15.

To put Park outside the top ten as you do is to be a bit ingenious. He’s clearly top 5 and lots of historians have him at two. To come in 2nd constantly to Orr and then Potvin is a testament to how great he was. He was runner up more times than any other defenseman in history. That alone puts in the top 5. Perhaps top 3.

 

[NickyFotiu]

To put Park outside the top ten as you do is to be a bit ingenious. He’s clearly top 5 and lots of historians have him at two. To come in 2nd constantly to Orr and then Potvin is a testament to how great he was. He was runner up more times than any other defenseman in history. That alone puts in the top 5. Perhaps top 3.

I'd be happy if any Ranger was top 2 or top 5. I just do not believe that is accurate. Why dont you look up all these historians lists. I'd like to know which put Park at #2. I like Park. I like Leetch. I like Gresh. If anyone would overrate them it would be me.

 

[Heritage Hockey]

I saw both Leetch and Park play and based on the eye test, Leetch was better. Yes, Park was runner up to Orr many times but the league at that time was pretty weak. Not a lot of competition. Leetch is probably the most talented Ranger who ever laced up for us (in their prime).

Lidstroms case for Top 5 is a weak one considering up to age 30, he won nothing. Players don't peak after 30 which lends one to believe the awards he won were more the result of the competition level dropping off drastically at that time.

 

[eco's bones]

Park was a great defenseman. That said there was a significant gap between the talent and ability of Orr and Park. I saw them both many times. Orr was a major threat to score or set up a play every time he stepped on the ice and in any situation. Just saying. After Potvin arrived he surpassed Park really by his second year in the league......and I never warmed to Denis as a personality and he was a borderline dirty player.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

I don't get the Lidstrom hype. The guy wasn't dynamic at all and never really stood out to me. Whenever I ask someone they just say something like "He's the perfect human" lol. WTF does that even mean? He just lucked out and played on great teams his entire career. I don't have him anywhere near Top 5.

He played mistake-free hockey longer than any defenseman in the history of the game, and that includes Orr and Bourque. Shutdown defenseman with elite off-the-charts IQ. He proved after 2004 that he could carry a contending team. Red Wings were top heavy after the lockout. No coincidence that Wings have never finished higher than third in the division since he left. In fact, in his first 19 seasons, the Wings never finished below second place and finished third in his final season.

Chelios on Lidstrom

“(Nick's) demeanor was really something,” he said. “When I got to the team, the one thing I learned from Nick, because of the passion I played with, I got too high, too low, Nick kept it at an even keel. Watching Nick and the effect he had on players, not losing his composure, even being two games down, never changed his game plan, being two goals down, never panicked, I slowly but surely, like the rest of the team, caught onto that.”

Coffey calls Lidstrom “perfect” in this video

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Lidstrom is the second greatest defenseman behind Orr. Bourque played with less support but also benefitted from the smaller sheet in Boston Garden and Sinden’s obsession with having three checking lines. Bourque vs Lidstrom for No. 2 is the only debate. Harvey would be in there as well but it was during pre-expansion.

Robinson was undressed routinely in the 1980s. Makarov exposed the heck out of Potvin and Robinson at multiple Canada Cups. Embarrassing almost. Nobody embarrased Lidstrom an entire game. Potvin broke down in his early 30s. So did Robinson. Lidstrom started peaking. You don’t disregard that, especially when he was in deep playoff runs playing 28-30 mins a night.

Coffey was an offenseman. Leetch was more physical and versatile. Leetch got more Norris votes than Coffey in 1991, 1992, 1994, 1996, and 1997. Leetch was a rookie in 1989, hurt in 1990 and 1993. The only season where Coffey was better than a prime Leetch over a full schedule was 1995, and that was 1/2 a season from the lockout.

Leetch scored 34 points in 23 playoff games in essentially the first season of the Dead Puck Era. Era adjusted, Coffey’s 37 in 18 games in 1985 falls short of Leetch’s 1994.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

I saw both Leetch and Park play and based on the eye test, Leetch was better. Yes, Park was runner up to Orr many times but the league at that time was pretty weak. Not a lot of competition. Leetch is probably the most talented Ranger who ever laced up for us (in their prime).

Lidstroms case for Top 5 is a weak one considering up to age 30, he won nothing. Players don't peak after 30 which lends one to believe the awards he won were more the result of the competition level dropping off drastically at that time.

Lidstrom was a Norris runner-up at 27, 28, and 29, and won two Cups before 30.

Lidstrom debuted in 1991-92 with Konstantinov. Then Coffey came. Konstantinov was 4th in the Norris in 1996 and 2nd in 1997. Coffey won the Norris in 1995. Konstantinov was three years older; Coffey was nine years older. After they were gone, Lidstrom was a Norris finalist in 10 of next 11 seasons, winning six and three times a runner up, with a Conn Smythe in 2002 to boot.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Lidstrom is the second greatest defenseman behind Orr. Bourque played with less support but also benefitted from the smaller sheet in Boston Garden and Sinden’s obsession with having three checking lines. Bourque vs Lidstrom for No. 2 is the only debate. Harvey would be in there as well but it was during pre-expansion.

Robinson was undressed routinely in the 1980s. Makarov exposed the heck out of Potvin and Robinson at multiple Canada Cups. Embarrassing almost. Nobody embarrased Lidstrom an entire game. Potvin broke down in his early 30s. So did Robinson. Lidstrom started peaking. You don’t disregard that, especially when he was in deep playoff runs playing 28-30 mins a night.

Coffey was an offenseman. Leetch was more physical and versatile. Leetch got more Norris votes than Coffey in 1991, 1992, 1994, 1996, and 1997. Leetch was a rookie in 1989, hurt in 1990 and 1993. The only season where Coffey was better than a prime Leetch over a full schedule was 1995, and that was 1/2 a season from the lockout.

Leetch scored 34 points in 23 playoff games in essentially the first season of the Dead Puck Era. Era adjusted, Coffey’s 37 in 18 games in 1985 falls short of Leetch’s 1994.

I respectfully disagree about Lidstrom at #2. Yes he had a very good long career but I value a guys peaks more than longevity when discussing the best. Sports writer voted awards against inferior competition are just not that important to me. I'd prefer Ray, Paul, and Brian at their peaks before Lidstrom. Maybe Potvin as well.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

I respectfully disagree about Lidstrom at #2. Yes he had a very good long career but I value a guys peaks more than longevity when discussing the best. Sports writer voted awards against inferior competition are just not that important to me. I'd prefer Ray, Paul, and Brian at their peaks before Lidstrom. Maybe Potvin as well.

Peak is fair, but age should be irrelevant when they achieve it. Lidstrom was winning Norris Trophies during peak Niedermayer, peak Pronger, peak Blake, and later peak Chara.

And I’ll never understand discrediting awards when it’s clear the player is great. One year? Of course. Two seasons? Maybe. But Lidstrom was widely regarded as the best dman of his generation with or without awards, and his opponents echoed that sentiment. He was the No. 1 dman on three Cup winners with three different groups — 1998 team was overhauled for 2002, and 2008 was the next generation.

Potvin’s Isles were deep powerhouses with HHOF’ers everywhere. Same with Robinson’s Habs, Coffey’s Oilers and Pens. They all benefitted and exposed weaker teams. To me, there is a major, major gap after the Big Four — Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque, and Harvey. Leetch is a God to me, but he had two seasons during his peak — 1993 and 1998 — where he wasn’t Norris caliber. I know he was hurt half of 1993 but it was an off season for him when he played.

Another thing to consider is how strong the West was between 1996-2002. Avs, Wings, and Dallas won six of those seven Cups. Lidstrom has a tougher road to his Cups conference-wise than Coffey. Coffey’s Oilers played .500 teams in the CF in 1985 and 1987. Lidstrom between 1996-2002 faced Dallas or Colorado in the CF four times, winning three of them en route to a Cup

 

[NickyFotiu]

Peak is fair, but age should be irrelevant when they achieve it. Lidstrom was winning Norris Trophies during peak Niedermayer, peak Pronger, peak Blake, and later peak Chara.

And I’ll never understand discrediting awards when it’s clear the player is great. One year? Of course. Two seasons? Maybe. But Lidstrom was widely regarded as the best dman of his generation with or without awards, and his opponents echoed that sentiment. He was the No. 1 dman on three Cup winners with three different groups — 1998 team was overhauled for 2002, and 2008 was the next generation.

Potvin’s Isles were deep powerhouses with HHOF’ers everywhere. Same with Robinson’s Habs, Coffey’s Oilers and Pens. They all benefitted and exposed weaker teams. To me, there is a major, major gap after the Big Four — Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque, and Harvey. Leetch is a God to me, but he had two seasons during his peak — 1993 and 1998 — where he wasn’t Norris caliber. I know he was hurt half of 1993 but it was an off season for him when he played.

Another thing to consider is how strong the West was between 1996-2002. Avs, Wings, and Dallas won six of those seven Cups. Lidstrom has a tougher road to his Cups conference-wise than Coffey. Coffey’s Oilers played .500 teams in the CF in 1985 and 1987. Lidstrom between 1996-2002 faced Dallas or Colorado in the CF four times, winning three of them en route to a Cup

I do not think we will ever agree about your claim of Lidstrom at #2 but for discussion sake I will talk about it. Lets forget writer or fan voted awards. I have to think the majority of your claim comes from defense is that correct? At their peaks Lidstrom was not better offensively than Ray, Paul, Brian or Denis was he? He also was not as physical as Ray nor Dennis right? Actually I could make a case that Lidstrom was not as physical as the rest either. So can we assume most of your case is about defense?

 

[AlternateSideParking]

I do not think we will ever agree about your claim of Lidstrom at #2 but for discussion sake I will talk about it. Lets forget writer or fan voted awards. I have to think the majority of your claim comes from defense is that correct? At their peaks Lidstrom was not better offensively than Ray, Paul, Brian or Denis was he? He also was not as physical as Ray nor Dennis right? Actually I could make a case that Lidstrom was not as physical as the rest either. So can we assume most of your case is about defense?

I don’t think level of physicality even matters TBH. Lidstrom was a No. 1 on multiple Cup winners facing tough WC opponents. He got the job done in two different eras.

Lidstrom led in defense scoring four times — 1998, 2000, 2006, and 2008. He finished second four times, and third twice. So 10 seasons of ranking top-3 in defense scoring.

Leetch led four times — 1992, 1996, 1997, and 2001. He never finished higher than fourth in any other season, including when Bourque, Coffey, and MacInnis were in their later years in the Dead Puck Era.

Between 1998 and 2004, Leetch outscored Lidstrom only twice — 2001 and 2004 — in seven seasons.

So technically and statistically, Lidstrom outproduced Leetch by a wide margin between 1998 and 2006. Leetch outproduced Lidstrom between 1992-1997. But Lidstrom did not see Leetch’s ice time/role until after Konstantinov retired and Coffey moved on. Once Lidstrom became Detroit’s full-out No. 1 in 1998, he dominated offensively while outscoring Leetch in the process.

Leetch’s 1992 and 1994 are seasons Lidstrom can’t touch, buy that’s the extent of Leetch ever coming close to outranking Lidstrom in anything. As a lifelong Leetch worshipper, I have no problem admitting that.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I don’t think level of physicality even matters TBH. Lidstrom was a No. 1 on multiple Cup winners facing tough WC opponents. He got the job done in two different eras.

Lidstrom led in defense scoring four times — 1998, 2000, 2006, and 2008. He finished second four times, and third twice. So 10 seasons of ranking top-3 in defense scoring.

Leetch led four times — 1992, 1996, 1997, and 2001. He never finished higher than fourth in any other season, including when Bourque, Coffey, and MacInnis were in their later years in the Dead Puck Era.

Between 1998 and 2004, Leetch outscored Lidstrom only twice — 2001 and 2004 — in seven seasons.

So technically and statistically, Lidstrom outproduced Leetch by a wide margin between 1998 and 2006. Leetch outproduced Lidstrom between 1992-1997. But Lidstrom did not see Leetch’s ice time/role until after Konstantinov retired and Coffey moved on. Once Lidstrom became Detroit’s full-out No. 1 in 1998, he dominated offensively while outscoring Leetch in the process.

Leetch’s 1992 and 1994 are seasons Lidstrom can’t touch, buy that’s the extent of Leetch ever coming close to outranking Lidstrom in anything. As a lifelong Leetch worshipper, I have no problem admitting that.

Until they make hockey a no contact game physicality remains a factor in my eyes. Ray and Potvin made physicality a significant part of their games.

Leetch, Coffey, Ray and Dennis were all better offensive players at their peaks imo.

Coffey scored 148 points. Leetch (102) and Potvin (101) also scored 100 points. Only 2 other guys have ever done that. Lidstrom peaked at 80 but was more like a 60 point guy.

Coffey scored 48 goals. Potvin scored 31 goals. Ray scored 31 goals. Lid peaked at 20.

I'm not bashing Lidstrom. I just do not view him at his peak as high as I hold other guys. I feel they are all top 10 but Lids is not top 2.

 

[eco's bones]

I never looked at Lidstrom’s lack of physicality as any detriment to his game though. It’s like what Fox does for the Rangers. They make what they do work for them with positioning both body and stick at the right place and time to break up plays and turn over pucks. They are almost like scientists of their position or Chess Masters. Anticipation, timing, knowing their options when the opposing play is degrading and the puck is free to set in motion the other way.

….and I like physical hockey and I think D who cannot hit and take a hit and pin a guy, clear out the front and battle and win pucks in corners with regularity are kind of a problem. I’m skeptical of smaller D to defend well. To me Lidstrom is an outlier. So is Fox.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I never looked at Lidstrom’s lack of physicality as any detriment to his game though. It’s like what Fox does for the Rangers. They make what they do work for them with positioning both body and stick at the right place and time to break up plays and turn over pucks. They are almost like scientists of their position or Chess Masters. Anticipation, timing, knowing their options when the opposing play is degrading and the puck is free to set in motion the other way.

….and I like physical hockey and I think D who cannot hit and take a hit and pin a guy, clear out the front and battle and win pucks in corners with regularity are kind of a problem. I’m skeptical of smaller D to defend well. To me Lidstrom is an outlier. So is Fox.

Don't get me wrong. Im not saying physicality is the be all end all but Id rather have it than not. Brian Leetch could have played like Fox but he mixed in a very effective hip check. The physicality is an important extra component which becomes even more valuable in the playoffs. Not needed but good to have.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Until they make hockey a no contact game physicality remains a factor in my eyes. Ray and Potvin made physicality a significant part of their games.

Leetch, Coffey, Ray and Dennis were all better offensive players at their peaks imo.

Coffey scored 148 points. Leetch (102) and Potvin (101) also scored 100 points. Only 2 other guys have ever done that. Lidstrom peaked at 80 but was more like a 60 point guy.

Coffey scored 48 goals. Potvin scored 31 goals. Ray scored 31 goals. Lid peaked at 20.

I'm not bashing Lidstrom. I just do not view him at his peak as high as I hold other guys. I feel they are all top 10 but Lids is not top 2.

Dead Puck Era though.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

I don’t think level of physicality even matters TBH. Lidstrom was a No. 1 on multiple Cup winners facing tough WC opponents. He got the job done in two different eras.

Lidstrom led in defense scoring four times — 1998, 2000, 2006, and 2008. He finished second four times, and third twice. So 10 seasons of ranking top-3 in defense scoring.

Leetch led four times — 1992, 1996, 1997, and 2001. He never finished higher than fourth in any other season, including when Bourque, Coffey, and MacInnis were in their later years in the Dead Puck Era.

Between 1998 and 2004, Leetch outscored Lidstrom only twice — 2001 and 2004 — in seven seasons.

So technically and statistically, Lidstrom outproduced Leetch by a wide margin between 1998 and 2006. Leetch outproduced Lidstrom between 1992-1997. But Lidstrom did not see Leetch’s ice time/role until after Konstantinov retired and Coffey moved on. Once Lidstrom became Detroit’s full-out No. 1 in 1998, he dominated offensively while outscoring Leetch in the process.

Leetch’s 1992 and 1994 are seasons Lidstrom can’t touch, buy that’s the extent of Leetch ever coming close to outranking Lidstrom in anything. As a lifelong Leetch worshipper, I have no problem admitting that.

STACKED Red Wings teams with handfulls of hall of famers in their primes.

Leetch never had the luxury Lidstrom did. Leetch was THE GUY even with Messier around. Leetch never had the equivalent of a prime Yzerman, Fedorov, Hull, Shanahan, Hasek, Zetterberg, Datsyuk... When did Leetch ever have that level of teammates?

This is like Coffey playing with Lemieux, Jagr, Stevens, Gretzky, Messier, and those previously mentioned Red Wings with a slew of Hall of Famers in their primes on the most stacked teams in NHL history.

And people wonder why these guys could run up their stats?

Show me where Leetch ever had that luxury in his career. Never. That's where. Messier was the only guy he ever had to play with that remotely came close. Gretzky had two good years with the Rangers at the end of his career.

Leetch was on perennial underachieving teams or teams with money allocated to the wrong players at the end of their careers. He was never on a built all-star team like all the other players listed.

Orr had prime Esposito as a luxury.

Potvin was on a stacked Islanders dynasty.

When was Leetch ever on a stacked team? 97? When they ran into an also stacked Philly team with some guy named Lindros in his prime?

Leetch never had the teams around him that all of those guys had. Leetch had to be the one driving the offense and the guy trying to shut down opposing players. He literally had to be THE GUY as if it were basketball most of his career. Trying to do literally everything on the ice to cover everything on teams not deep or good enough to even make the playoffs for a significant amount of his career.

Rangers did the same thing to Lundqvist and we sit here wondering why he didn't win a Cup. Because he couldn't center the top line as a goaltender and score goals too.

Rangers have a long proud history of wasting their own great players' careers by expecting them to do everything on their own. But also accumulating past-their-prime players so they can sell tickets and fill seats based on name value.

The current Avalanche team is better than most of the teams Leetch had to play on. Hell, the current Rangers are a better team than most of the teams Leetch had to play on.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Dead Puck Era though.

Wouldn't the dead puck era also make it much easier for Lid to let up less goals?

 

[AlternateSideParking]

STACKED Red Wings teams with handfulls of hall of famers in their primes.

Leetch never had the luxury Lidstrom did. Leetch was THE GUY even with Messier around. Leetch never had the equivalent of a prime Yzerman, Fedorov, Hull, Shanahan, Hasek, Zetterberg, Datsyuk... When did Leetch ever have that level of teammates?

This is like Coffey playing with Lemieux, Jagr, Stevens, Gretzky, Messier, and those previously mentioned Red Wings with a slew of Hall of Famers in their primes on the most stacked teams in NHL history.

And people wonder why these guys could run up their stats?

Show me where Leetch ever had that luxury in his career. Never. That's where. Messier was the only guy he ever had to play with that remotely came close. Gretzky had two good years with the Rangers at the end of his career.

Leetch was on perennial underachieving teams or teams with money allocated to the wrong players at the end of their careers. He was never on a built all-star team like all the other players listed.

Orr had prime Esposito as a luxury.

Potvin was on a stacked Islanders dynasty.

When was Leetch ever on a stacked team? 97? When they ran into an also stacked Philly team with some guy named Lindros in his prime?

Leetch never had the teams around him that all of those guys had. Leetch had to be the one driving the offense and the guy trying to shut down opposing players. He literally had to be THE GUY as if it were basketball most of his career. Trying to do literally everything on the ice to cover everything on teams not deep or good enough to even make the playoffs for a significant amount of his career.

Rangers did the same thing to Lundqvist and we sit here wondering why he didn't win a Cup. Because he couldn't center the top line as a goaltender and score goals too.

Rangers have a long proud history of wasting their own great players' careers by expecting them to do everything on their own. But also accumulating past-their-prime players so they can sell tickets and fill seats based on name value.

The current Avalanche team is better than most of the teams Leetch had to play on. Hell, the current Rangers are a better team than most of the teams Leetch had to play on.

Gartner, Messier, Gretzky, Robitaille, Lowe, and Zubov are all in the HHOF. Nicholls, Larmer, Verbeek, Tikkanen, Kovalev, Amonte, Weight are borderline. So are Richter and Vanbiesbrouck.

Leetch was surrounded by plenty of skill and depth before and into the Dead Puck Era. The Rangers were legit Cup contenders in 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1996, and 1997.

The finished top-9 in goals scored in 1989, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1996, and 1997.

The Red Wings post-lockout were top heavy. It was basically Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Rafalski, and Lidstrom who carried them to a SCF in 2008 and added Hossa for 2009. Osgood was the No. 1 for both runs.

Leetch had a great supporting cast in 1991, 1992, 1994, 1996, and 1997. Any of those teams were good enough to win a Cup.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Wouldn't the dead puck era also make it much easier for Lid to let up less goals?

I’m talking about the single-season point totals you referenced. All were pre-DPE. Lidstrom out-produced Leetch in the DPE and was better defensively. Had the better team, of course, but post-lockout Lidstrom’s defense was quite stellar on less-stacked teams, especially in those two Cup runs.

Leetch had seven seasons of 60+ points, Lidstrom had nine. Lidstrom had four seasons of 70+ points to Leetch’s seven, but again, three were pre-DPE. I don’t understand why Lidstrom being a top-2 defense scorer for over 10 years is being overlooked. He was literally the highest-scoring defenseman in the league between 1997 and 2004, beating Leetch in total points (476-424) and per-game (0.74 to 0.73).

Lidstrom also led all post-lockout defensemen in scoring between 2006 and 2012, and by a wide margin (416 points to Dan Boyle’s 354).

So in essence, Lidstrom had two peaks — one in a low-scoring era and another in a higher-scoring era. Leetch had one peak — 1991-1997, and most of that was pre-DPE.

That’s why nobody outside of Rangers fans thinks Leetch was better than Lidstrom.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Leetch's points per game are way ahead of Lids.

To try to take away Leetch's best and include Lids best is silly.

Lid is not was not and will not be better offensively than Leetch no matter how stats are spun.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Leetch's points per game are way ahead of Lids.

To try to take away Leetch's best and include Lids best is silly.

Lid is not was not and will not be better offensively than Leetch no matter how stats are spun.

Lidstrom was literally better than Leetch offensively from 1998 to 2004. Leetch was better from 1992 to 1997. Lidstrom entered the league in 1992.

Again, it’s a massive homer take to rank Leetch over Lidstrom, and to do it, you’ve disregarded raw stat totals over large sample sizes, disregarded Norris voting, AND disregarded the massive scoring disparity between the NHL during a chunk of Leetch’s peak and Lidstrom’s first peak during the Dead Puck Era.

When Leetch hit 100 points in 1992 the league average was 6.95 goals a game. By the time Lidstrom took over as No. 1 in 1998, it was 5.27.

Stylistically, of course Leetch was more dynamic and flashier. But points are points, and assists are assists. Lidstrom literally outscored Leetch for his career.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Lidstrom was literally better than Leetch offensively from 1998 to 2004. Leetch was better from 1992 to 1997. Lidstrom entered the league in 1992.

Again, it’s a massive homer take to rank Leetch over Lidstrom, and to do it, you’ve disregarded raw stat totals over large sample sizes, disregarded Norris voting, AND disregarded the massive scoring disparity between the NHL during a chunk of Leetch’s peak and Lidstrom’s first peak during the Dead Puck Era.

When Leetch hit 100 points in 1992 the league average was 6.95 goals a game. By the time Lidstrom took over as No. 1 in 1998, it was 5.27.

Stylistically, of course Leetch was more dynamic and flashier. But points are points, and assists are assists. Lidstrom literally outscored Leetch for his career.

Has nothing to do with being a homer. I didn't say Leetch was a better offensive player than Coffey. I said Leetch was a better offensive player than Lidsrtrom and that is not in debate no matter how you cherry pick stats to spin.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Lidstrom was literally better than Leetch offensively from 1998 to 2004. Leetch was better from 1992 to 1997. Lidstrom entered the league in 1992.

Again, it’s a massive homer take to rank Leetch over Lidstrom, and to do it, you’ve disregarded raw stat totals over large sample sizes, disregarded Norris voting, AND disregarded the massive scoring disparity between the NHL during a chunk of Leetch’s peak and Lidstrom’s first peak during the Dead Puck Era.

When Leetch hit 100 points in 1992 the league average was 6.95 goals a game. By the time Lidstrom took over as No. 1 in 1998, it was 5.27.

Stylistically, of course Leetch was more dynamic and flashier. But points are points, and assists are assists. Lidstrom literally outscored Leetch for his career.

It took Nik 335 more games to outscore Brian by about 115 points when Nik had the luxury of playing 7 years after the lockout in '05 when the rules on obstruction were finally being enforced. Leetch was a shell of himself by that point & was done a year later. Plus Lidstrom played on way better teams that BL did for half of his career. His teams literally never missed the playoffs...20 for 20.

If you want to argue Nik had a better career overall because he won more Cups & Awards, that's fair. But Leetch had a higher ceiling if you compare them in their primes & was the much better player offensively. Lidstrom never came close to what Leetch achieved in the '94 playoffs. And what I'm referring to goes way beyond scoring 34 points. I'll repeat what I said earlier in this thread...Since the late 80s, there are only two players who have taken over the Stanley Cup playoffs in a single year like Brian Leetch did in '94, Gretzky & Lemieux. That's the list.