Brian Leetch: Greatest American Player Ever?

[hackeyman]

I'm wondering why Park gets put ahead of Leetch. Even if you take Park's seasons in Boston into account, Leetch still finishes ahead of Park in goals and assists.

Points aren't everything. When comparing players of different eras you need to consider relative dominance etc. Leetch has 2 1st team all stars and 2 second team and was only in the top ten voting for the Hart once. Park has 7 first team all stars and 2 second team. He has in the top ten in voting for the Hart 8 times. Parks career plus minus plus 363 compared to Leetch's plus 25.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Did u read the comment I was responding too? Particularly the part about "any list one reads regarding NHL's best ever defense men?"

No and that is why I asked.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Points aren't everything. When comparing players of different eras you need to consider relative dominance etc. Leetch has 2 1st team all stars and 2 second team and was only in the top ten voting for the Hart once. Park has 7 first team all stars and 2 second team. He has in the top ten in voting for the Hart 8 times. Parks career plus minus plus 363 compared to Leetch's plus 25.

Awards and plus minus are largely team related. Many awards are based on team success.

If Fox plays a full season with Georgi as his goalie instead of Shesty will his plus minus stay the same?
Some really great players had some really bad plus/minus years because they were the best player playing a lot of minutes on really bad teams.

 

[Paul Padovano]

Awards and plus minus are largely team related. Many awards are based on team success.

If Fox plays a full season with Georgi as his goalie instead of Shesty will his plus minus stay the same?
Some really great players had some really bad plus/minus years because they were the best player playing a lot of minutes on really bad teams.

Basically, (I see you got it) the argument being made is that Brad Park was a better defense man than Leetch. I never watched Park play, so I was looking for an explanation as to why people feel that way. Leetch was one of the best all around rear guards I've ever had the privilege of watching. He was also (along with Richter) a part of that Canada Cup winning team, to go along with everything else he did. Anyway, for as long as I've been watching the game, I can't think of too many d men I'd take over Leetch.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Best US Hockey producer is Mrs Ellen Weinberg-Hughes

 

[Paul Padovano]

Points aren't everything. When comparing players of different eras you need to consider relative dominance etc. Leetch has 2 1st team all stars and 2 second team and was only in the top ten voting for the Hart once. Park has 7 first team all stars and 2 second team. He has in the top ten in voting for the Hart 8 times. Parks career plus minus plus 363 compared to Leetch's plus 25.

Could it be, some guys were more heavily favored over Leetch? Some players are just hard to compare. Like there's many people who would take Chelios over Leetch, but the two play a different style game. When Lidstrom was winning all of those Norris trophies, there were some people saying they'd take him over Orr.

 

[Zanex]

Points aren't everything. When comparing players of different eras you need to consider relative dominance etc. Leetch has 2 1st team all stars and 2 second team and was only in the top ten voting for the Hart once. Park has 7 first team all stars and 2 second team. He has in the top ten in voting for the Hart 8 times. Parks career plus minus plus 363 compared to Leetch's plus 25.

Plus/Minus tells you nothing. What was Paul Coffey? Plus 300 in his career? And he was a defensive train wreck. Leetch was good defensively, he just played on terrible teams.

Look at Leetch's PIM (penalties in minutes). Far less than guys like Chelios and MacInnis. That speaks more to me about how responsible he was defensively than plus/minus does.

Leetch is an 11 time
All-Star, by the way.

 

[Claxton]

Just reminiscing on the old days. Leetch to Brett Hull for the ripper starting at 2:05

 

[mrhockey193195]

Brimsek and Chelios are firmly ahead of Leetch, but he's right up there after that.

 

[Brutananadilewski]

Leetch is one of the greatest Americans, period!

Right up there with Teddy Roosevelt, David Lee Roth, and Archie Bunker.

 

[Zanex]

So you couldn't have read a word I said. I disagree that Orr's era was weaker than Leetch's BUT lets deal with my first point. ORR played in what is using your own reasoning the least diluted era in the NHL.....the original 6 era. He played as an 18 year old and ranked 6th in Hart Trophy voting even though an 18 year old playing then was almost unheard of and I believe absolutely unheard of for a defenceman. Brian Leetch in his entire career was only ranked in the top 10 for the Hart once. He was in a 4 way tie for 9th. I think you make the mistake that many make in saying the high scoring era was the most competitive because look at all the great scorers there were. In Leetch's long career he was a plus 25. Orr in an injury plagued career cut in half was plus 582. Let this sink in .Only a very very few 19 year olds played in the NHL back then . A handful going back decades. And no 19 year old won a calder. Orr comes in at 18 and is 6th in voting for the Hart in the original 6 against the likes of Gordie Howe, Stan Makita, Booby Hull , Pierre Pilotte, Bernie Geoffrion. For God's sake he outscored Jean Belliveau and Yvon cournoyer as an 18 year old. HE CHANGED THE GAME AGAINST LEGENDS !

There were 6 teams. Of course Orr is going to rank higher for the Hart or whatever other award there was at the time. Bourque came in 2nd in Hart voting in 1990 and I'd take Leetch over him in a heartbeat.

Orr "changing the game" has always been somewhat of a tall tale. Guys like Red Kelly were offensive Defensemen long before Orr and were better defensively.

And Leetch played on putrid teams from the age of 28 years old on. That's why his plus/minus is average. Coffey had a great career plus/minus and he stunk defensively.

Leetch had 571 penalty minutes in 1205 games. Orr had 953 penalty minutes in 657 games. This is because Leetch was responsible defensively and knew how to stay out of the box. Orr, not so much. That's a much more telling stat than plus/minus. Pat Quinn himself said Leetch was much better defensively than Orr was.

 

[Zanex]

Brimsek and Chelios are firmly ahead of Leetch, but he's right up there after that.

I doubt you ever saw Leetch play. Chelios is a notch below Leetch. Leetch was a better outlet passer, skater, puck handler and shooter. Chelios threw the body more and played until he was 90 years old. That's his only edge over Leetch.

 

[hackeyman]

Best US Hockey producer is Mrs Ellen Weinberg-Hughes

Bahahaha

 

[NickyFotiu]

Basically, (I see you got it) the argument being made is that Brad Park was a better defense man than Leetch. I never watched Park play, so I was looking for an explanation as to why people feel that way. Leetch was one of the best all around rear guards I've ever had the privilege of watching. He was also (along with Richter) a part of that Canada Cup winning team, to go along with everything else he did. Anyway, for as long as I've been watching the game, I can't think of too many d men I'd take over Leetch.

Leetch in my opinion is top 10 all time. Just squeezing in there while Park may be top 15-20. I mostly saw Park after the trade so he was no longer in his prime physically but he was still an all star in his 30's. Went to Detroit at 35 and still led their team with over 50 assists. Ron Duguay and Eddie Johnsone (EJ) played with him that year.

 

[hackeyman]

Leetch is one of the greatest Americans, period!

Right up there with Teddy Roosevelt, David Lee Roth, and Archie Bunker.

I'll give you Roosevelt and Roth but no way is Leetch up there with Archie Bunker. No way no how !

 

[hackeyman]

There were 6 teams. Of course Orr is going to rank higher for the Hart or whatever other award there was at the time. Bourque came in 2nd in Hart voting in 1990 and I'd take Leetch over him in a heartbeat.

You're clearly missing the main point I was making with regards to the original 6 and the Hart. I was addressing your expansion era was weak (most diluted) argument by saying ..........How would ORR have done in another era ? .......OH WAIT HE DID PLAY IN ANOTHER ERA ! As an 18 year old he played in the original six (least diluted) when it was very rare for even 20 year old forwards and 22 year old defencemen to play and he outscored John f***ING Beliveau ! He was 5 points less than Frank Mahovolich ! He was 6th in voting for the Hart . AS AN 18 YEAR OLD !

The second Hart argument I was making is Orr dominated the entire league not just defencemen. Leetch never did.

Now as far as taking Leetch over Bourque in a heartbeat. That's the first time I've heard someone say that. They played in the same era . Hard to twist that Leetch was better and in a heartbeat.

 

[Elliman]

The Greatest American Team Of All Time

Scoring 1: Kreider - LaFontaine - Amonte - McDonagh - Leetch
Scoring 2: Fotiu - Pavelich - Callahan - Lindgren - Fox
Scoring 3: Granato - Weight - Mullen - Schneider - Shattenkirk
Checking 1: Drury - Eddie O - Broten - Schneider - Berard
Checking 2: Dubinsky - Turcotte - Noonan - Trouba - Yandle
Roar: Brashear - Ortmeyer - Nilan - Purinton - Hatcher
Rosen: Kelly Miller - JT Miller - Kevin Miller - D’Andre Miller - Tony D’Angelo

Richter / Beezer - Kinkaid

 

[hackeyman]

Orr "changing the game" has always been somewhat of a tall tale. Guys like Red Kelly were offensive Defensemen long before Orr and were better defensively.

Beliveau, Howe, Hull, and countless others said he single handedly changed the game.

 

[Zanex]

You're clearly missing the main point I was making with regards to the original 6 and the Hart. I was addressing your expansion era was weak (most diluted) argument by saying ..........How would ORR have done in another era ? .......OH WAIT HE DID PLAY IN ANOTHER ERA ! As an 18 year old he played in the original six (least diluted) when it was very rare for even 20 year old forwards and 22 year old defencemen to play and he outscored John f***ING Beliveau ! He was 5 points less than Frank Mahovolich ! He was 6th in voting for the Hart . AS AN 18 YEAR OLD !

The second Hart argument I was making is Orr dominated the entire league not just defencemen. Leetch never did.

Now as far as taking Leetch over Bourque in a heartbeat. That's the first time I've heard someone say that. They played in the same era . Hard to twist that Leetch was better and in a heartbeat.

Bourque was great and certainly on Leetch's level but had a lot of playoff flops. Never elevated his game the way Leetch did in 94 and had to piggyback his way to a cup with the Avalanche at the end of his career. I'm more of a peak guy but if you prefer longevity certainly there's a good case for Bourque.

My main point about Orr is he would not dominate the game the way he did if he played in the 80s and 90s. The Defensemen and players in general of that era were top notch.

Would he still be the best Defenseman in the game? Probably. But he wouldn't be racking up Norris wins for a decade straight. Orr had very little competition in 1968 as half the league was trash. He came in at the perfect time to dominate.

Not arguing that Orr shouldn't be considered the best Defenseman ever. He has a decent case. Just annoying though when he's placed so far above other great Hall of Fame players and given this mythical God-like status. I am not a fan of those type of exaggerations.

 

[chosen]

I'm wondering why Park gets put ahead of Leetch. Even if you take Park's seasons in Boston into account, Leetch still finishes ahead of Park in goals and assists.

For one thing, Park was perhaps the most physical player on the Rangers while here. While +/- is often frowned upon, the difference between them was stark. Leetch was +25. Park was +363.

Park came in 2nd for the Norris trophy 6 times, while the best defenseman in the history of the game was playing.

They were both great, though.

 

[Paul Padovano]

Beliveau, Howe, Hull, and countless others said he single handedly changed the game.

Before Bobby Orr, I don't think defense men ever took the puck end to end. Doug Harvey never did that and he was probably the best offensive defense man to ever play the game, before Bobby Orr came onto the scene. When Orr started winning all of those Norris trophies, there were 12 teams in the league, so the original 6 was over. Jeesh, 8 Norris trophies, 3 Hart trophies, 2 Conn Smythe, and 2 Art Ross. 874 pts in 657 gp. In 74 playoff games, he put up 92 pts. So yea, he not only changed the game, he's gotta be considered one of the best players to ever play the game. If Orr had more longevity, I think you can put him ahead of Gretzky, as the greatest to ever play the game.

 

[Zanex]

While +/- is often frowned upon, the difference between them was stark. Leetch was +25. Park was +363.

The quality level of the teams they played on was stark too. Coffey's plus/minus is up there with Park's, and it's pretty much universally agreed upon that Leetch was a much better defensive player than him.

There's a reason plus/minus is frowned upon. It not only doesn't tell you anything about a players defense, but it actually misleads you often times into thinking a player was good defensively when they weren't, or vice versa. The stat should be abolished.

Look at Leetch's PIM. It's amongst the lowest ever for elite Defensemen. That tells you a lot more than plus/minus ever will.

 

[chosen]

The quality level of the teams they played on was stark too. Coffey's plus/minus is up there with Park's, and it's pretty much universally agreed upon that Leetch was a much better defensive player than him.

There's a reason plus/minus is frowned upon. It not only doesn't tell you anything about a players defense, but it actually misleads you often times into thinking a player was good defensively when they weren't, or vice versa. The stat should be abolished.

Look at Leetch's PIM. It's amongst the lowest ever for elite Defensemen. That tells you a lot more than plus/minus ever will.

Using a good plus/minus as a negative is odd. Coffey has somehow become a bad player in retrospect. He was definitely not that.

In 20 years, many fans will say that Leetch played in a much less talented league than "now", so he wasn't really as good as people think.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Judging defensemen abilities defensively by penalty minutes is just strange imo.
Defensemen who played tough and were intimidators with hits and fighting had more penalty minutes. It didnt make them worse defensively. Beck? Potvin? Langway? Stevens? These guys could play defense but were not Lady Bing candidates.

I'm one of the biggest Leetch fans ever. My hope is people list him in their top 10 but to make him better based on PIM is reach in my opinion. Brian is better than some give him credit for but not based on PIM. Brian was not a fighter. He was never going to pick up 15-20 minutes in 1 night.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Using a good plus/minus as a negative is odd. Coffey has somehow become a bad player in retrospect. He was definitely not that.

In 20 years, many fans will say that Leetch played in a much less talented league than "now", so he wasn't really as good as people think.

Coffey is another underrated guy in my opinion. I think the game came so easy to Coffey that some years he just got bored playing defense. In other years he was much better defensively. He would have up and down years defensively but it was not always like that. His skating was incredible. His strength was underrated. I remember when our Tony Granato was annoying him and he just tossed Tony aside like a little kid. He had great vision. He had a great accurate shot. He may not have been dedicated to playing defense at times (second half of career) but there is no doubt when he set his mind to play defense he could.