Confirmed with Link: Brady Tkachuk - The decider: signs 3 year ELC

[BondraTime]

In some cases it's true, and in some cases it is not. Improper team development absolutely is a factor in some cases when a prospect doesn't turn out. It's not so black and white. There's a myriad of reasons why a prospect might not turn out as expected and team development is one of those reasons, as is a lack of hockey iq as you mentioned.

In the case of Ceci, Lazar, and Cowen - I absolutely believe that all three were improperly rushed to the NHL, do all three also lack hockey iq? Yes. Could their hockey iq have been further nurtured if developed more over time? That's the unknown answer. I think confidence can do a lot for a prospects development, it's clear that all 3 lacked confidence at the NHL level, something that could have possibly been avoided if brought up to the NHL with a more patient development strategy.

No. You can not develop hockey I.Q.

You can develop systems and structure, but not hockey I.Q.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

No. You can not develop hockey I.Q.

You can develop systems and structure, but not hockey I.Q.

Hockey IQ doesn’t seem to be the issue here though. Seems to be quite cerebral. Can play east west. Defensively sound.

 

[BondraTime]

Hockey IQ doesn’t seem to be the issue here though. Seems to be quite cerebral. Can play east west. Defensively sound.

I have no issues with Tkachuk's hockey sense whatsoever, just commenting on the thought that a guy can work on his hockey sense to make it better.

 

[Sensung]

I'd be interested to know how many of our members have any personal experience in any sport in player/athlete development.

Lots of strong opinions, but are they backed up with any hands on experience?

 

[h2]

I'd be interested to know how many of our members have any personal experience in any sport in player/athlete development.

Lots of strong opinions, but are they backed up with any hands on experience?

That was part of what I was trying to get at. I don't think you can just dismiss with 100% confidence that hockey iq can not be developed. I do think that if it can, it's probably the slowest/toughest attribute of a player to develop. Tough to say either way and a difficult subject for common fans to discuss.

 

[BondraTime]

That was part of what I was trying to get at. I don't think you can just dismiss with 100% confidence that hockey iq can not be developed. I do think that if it can, it's probably the slowest/toughest attribute of a player to develop. Tough to say either way and a difficult subject for common fans to discuss.

I've yet to see a player who was ever able to develop hockey I.Q. It's something you have or you don't, that goes from Midget to the NHL. It's not something that is on the teachable list at the junior level, like skating/shot/strength, etc.

You can learn systems ("this is how we play, this is what I need to do"; Chris Kelly was a guy with little hockey I.Q who excelled at this type of learning; he played exactly how the team he played for wanted him too, and he was a great NHLer due to it) and develop the skills that you can learn (skating/shot/strength/passing/etc.) to improve, but if you don't have the I.Q to instinctively know what to do in the split second that it happens in the game, you're never going to develop it.

There is a reason you never see that kind of thing worked on in the NHL, if you did; or you could, guys like Jared Cowen, Cody Ceci, Curtis Lazar, MSP, and Rico Fata, etc. would have been working on it non-stop.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I've yet to see a player who was ever able to develop hockey I.Q. It's something you have or you don't, that goes from Midget to the NHL. It's not something that is on the teachable list at the junior level, like skating/shot/strength, etc.

You can learn systems ("this is how we play, this is what I need to do"; Chris Kelly was a guy with little hockey I.Q who excelled at this type of learning; he played exactly how the team he played for wanted him too, and he was a great NHLer due to it) and develop the skills that you can learn (skating/shot/strength/passing/etc.) to improve, but if you don't have the I.Q to instinctively know what to do in the split second that it happens in the game, you're never going to develop it.

There is a reason you never see that kind of thing worked on in the NHL, if you did; or you could, guys like Jared Cowen, Cody Ceci, Curtis Lazar, MSP, and Rico Fata, etc. would have been working on it non-stop.

We buy the game editor and change those friggin stats fast!

 

[Tundraman]

Well we're talking about why Ryan would be a terrible mentor for Brady.

I appreciate the sensitivity and the sentiment but you pushed it too far with your last comment and it became an offensive political generalization which is way beyond the topic. There is a HF forum for that type of discussion but it's not this one.

I think Brady has a solid NHL family to depend on for any pro advise or adjustments he needs to make. He won't need anyone to lean on. He will fit in nicely with the likes of Brown, White etc...

 

[Korpse]

I've yet to see a player who was ever able to develop hockey I.Q. It's something you have or you don't, that goes from Midget to the NHL. It's not something that is on the teachable list at the junior level, like skating/shot/strength, etc.

You can learn systems ("this is how we play, this is what I need to do"; Chris Kelly was a guy with little hockey I.Q who excelled at this type of learning; he played exactly how the team he played for wanted him too, and he was a great NHLer due to it) and develop the skills that you can learn (skating/shot/strength/passing/etc.) to improve, but if you don't have the I.Q to instinctively know what to do in the split second that it happens in the game, you're never going to develop it.

There is a reason you never see that kind of thing worked on in the NHL, if you did; or you could, guys like Jared Cowen, Cody Ceci, Curtis Lazar, MSP, and Rico Fata, etc. would have been working on it non-stop.

Hockey IQ can develop over time. A pro hockey players hockey IQ isnt the same as it was when they were 13 but at the pro stage it's a likely a little too late for development of hockey IQ.

 

[Ice-Tray]

In some cases it's true, and in some cases it is not. Improper team development absolutely is a factor in some cases when a prospect doesn't turn out. It's not so black and white. There's a myriad of reasons why a prospect might not turn out as expected and team development is one of those reasons, as is a lack of hockey iq as you mentioned.

In the case of Ceci, Lazar, and Cowen - I absolutely believe that all three were improperly rushed to the NHL, do all three also lack hockey iq? Yes. Could their hockey iq have been further nurtured if developed more over time? That's the unknown answer. I think confidence can do a lot for a prospects development, it's clear that all 3 lacked confidence at the NHL level, something that could have possibly been avoided if brought up to the NHL with a more patient development strategy.

The thing is, there is no way of knowing one way or another. I mean there just isn't. A lot of times we see guys play better after a trade when they get into situations that are better personally, but that also doesn't mean that they were developed poorly by the first team. I think the biggest factor in a player's development is their own internal determination to become the best player they can be. In absence of that teams can try and massage and coddle players into a position where they feel comfortable until they grow the hell up, but many of the best players dominate because they work their asses off to get there.

The difference between a guy like Neil and Crosby is skill, the difference between Crosby and Daigle is determination. I think one of the biggest draws of a guy like BT is that he has been identified as having high level skills, but also has the personal characteristics to personally drive to meet his potential. Add in the ingrained personality traits that drive him to be a physically attacking and relentless player, and you have a special combination.

He's the type of player that is going to grab his potential by the neck and throttle it, and given his high level skills it's a great pick at 4 (no disrespect to Neiler).

 

[h2]

I've yet to see a player who was ever able to develop hockey I.Q. It's something you have or you don't, that goes from Midget to the NHL. It's not something that is on the teachable list at the junior level, like skating/shot/strength, etc.

You can learn systems ("this is how we play, this is what I need to do"; Chris Kelly was a guy with little hockey I.Q who excelled at this type of learning; he played exactly how the team he played for wanted him too, and he was a great NHLer due to it) and develop the skills that you can learn (skating/shot/strength/passing/etc.) to improve, but if you don't have the I.Q to instinctively know what to do in the split second that it happens in the game, you're never going to develop it.

There is a reason you never see that kind of thing worked on in the NHL, if you did; or you could, guys like Jared Cowen, Cody Ceci, Curtis Lazar, MSP, and Rico Fata, etc. would have been working on it non-stop.

I'm just going to respectfully say that I don't know if I agree or disagree with your statement. I think it's a deeper subject than explained here.

Hockey I.Q. aside, do you think there was any path possible for Ceci/Cowen/Lazar or were they destined to end up the way they did regardless of the path taken?

Cowen was not only injured during his draft year, but I saw him as a very raw prospect with lots of potential. Outside of the playoffs in his rookie year vs NYR (Not uncommon for a rookie to get exposed in the playoffs), I thought Cowen was pretty good but then things went downhill from there.

Ceci and Lazar I thought were both good picks at the time, I think both should have spent a few years down in the AHL first. Lazar definitely could have used the offensive touches at a lower level being the go-to guy before coming up.

 

[h2]

The thing is, there is no way of knowing one way or another. I mean there just isn't. A lot of times we see guys play better after a trade when they get into situations that are better personally, but that also doesn't mean that they were developed poorly by the first team. I think the biggest factor in a player's development is their own internal determination to become the best player they can be. In absence of that teams can try and massage and coddle players into a position where they feel comfortable until they grow the hell up, but many of the best players dominate because they work their asses off to get there.

The difference between a guy like Neil and Crosby is skill, the difference between Crosby and Daigle is determination. I think one of the biggest draws of a guy like BT is that he has been identified as having high level skills, but also has the personal characteristics to personally drive to meet his potential. Add in the ingrained personality traits that drive him to be a physically attacking and relentless player, and you have a special combination.

He's the type of player that is going to grab his potential by the neck and throttle it, and given his high level skills it's a great pick at 4 (no disrespect to Neiler).

No issues there, well said. Here's to BT developing into what we think he can.

 

[BondraTime]

I'm just going to respectfully say that I don't know if I agree or disagree with your statement. I think it's a deeper subject than explained here.

Hockey I.Q. aside, do you think there was any path possible for Ceci/Cowen/Lazar or were they destined to end up the way they did regardless of the path taken?

Cowen was not only injured during his draft year, but I saw him as a very raw prospect with lots of potential. Outside of the playoffs in his rookie year vs NYR (Not uncommon for a rookie to get exposed in the playoffs), I thought Cowen was pretty good but then things went downhill from there.

Ceci and Lazar I thought were both good picks at the time, I think both should have spent a few years down in the AHL first. Lazar definitely could have used the offensive touches at a lower level being the go-to guy before coming up.

Lazar benefited by being a man among boys in junior (low level I.Q that was kept in the shadows because he was bigger, stronger, faster than everyone). We could have left Lazar to play in the AHL for 3 years, he never would have developed his I.Q any further than it is right now. He may have developed other areas of his game (systems/shot/etc.) but nothing that would have made him a much better player in the NHL. Same goes for Cowen; bigger, stronger, faster than everyone so his I.Q wasn't an issue in junior. He could have learned to play the system and just be THAT guy on the 3rd pair, but he would never be able to develop the one thing his game lacked, which was smarts.

Ceci I think would have benefited from some extra time in the AHL to develop. His I.Q aside, he could have learnt the system and how to play in the role he has been thrust into. He was developed absolutely terribly.
A. He is NOT a shut down defender. Putting him in that role is idiotic, at best.
B. He actually had offensive abilities at the junior, and pro levels, but has seemed to have lost that with his confidence being shot by not being in a position to succeed, or being given a partner to help him through the pains.

Brown, as an example, is a guy with very high offensive I.Q. He knows what to do to create chances in the offensive zone, and they just come naturally. He would benefit from the AHL to help develop his skills to go with those smarts (learn to use his size against men, learn his shot is a weapon, learn when not to make a risky backdoor pass, etc.). He's not going to develop any more I.Q than he already has, but he will develop the skills to make accomplishing what he sees in the offensive zone easier.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I think you can refine and polish any skill, including hockey IQ. But, you do need a decent base to work with. Polishing a rock still leaves you with a rock. Polish a rough diamond, and you suddenly have a valuable stone.

 

[Tuna99]

Hockey IQ aside and the fact he's very good at developing plays , Tkachuks willingness to play hockey in the blue paint and stay there is so underrated on these boards, players who can finish and play in the blue paint are almost as rare as a forward with the hockey IQ of Patrice a Bergeron. Tkachuks toughness will be a game changer for Ottawa. We haven't had a true net front presence since Heatley, and even then Heatley was all over the blue paint after the lockout when Dman couldn't touch anyone, when the league tough ended up each year and Anaheim was knocking guys out in the blue paint on their Cup run, Heatley stayed in the slot a lot more so he was only picking cherries really, Brady seems to play his hockey there and is desperate to get to blue ice.

 

[JD1]

idk. ...imo

Lazar benefited by being a man among boys in junior (low level I.Q that was kept in the shadows because he was bigger, stronger, faster than everyone). We could have left Lazar to play in the AHL for 3 years, he never would have developed his I.Q any further than it is right now. He may have developed other areas of his game (systems/shot/etc.) but nothing that would have made him a much better player in the NHL. Same goes for Cowen; bigger, stronger, faster than everyone so his I.Q wasn't an issue in junior. He could have learned to play the system and just be THAT guy on the 3rd pair, but he would never be able to develop the one thing his game lacked, which was smarts.

Ceci I think would have benefited from some extra time in the AHL to develop. His I.Q aside, he could have learnt the system and how to play in the role he has been thrust into. He was developed absolutely terribly.
A. He is NOT a shut down defender. Putting him in that role is idiotic, at best.
B. He actually had offensive abilities at the junior, and pro levels, but has seemed to have lost that with his confidence being shot by not being in a position to succeed, or being given a partner to help him through the pains.

Brown, as an example, is a guy with very high offensive I.Q. He knows what to do to create chances in the offensive zone, and they just come naturally. He would benefit from the AHL to help develop his skills to go with those smarts (learn to use his size against men, learn his shot is a weapon, learn when not to make a risky backdoor pass, etc.). He's not going to develop any more I.Q than he already has, but he will develop the skills to make accomplishing what he sees in the offensive zone easier.

idk...imo Cowen was already above a 3rd pair guy. he got sent to the AHL during the lockout and tore his hip labrum while there. he never skated the same way after that. you can argue he didn't have the IQ to adapt but it is difficult to adapt when you are always behind the pace.

in Ceci's case I don't think his offence stifled because of development I think it stifled because of boucher and Karlsson. Under Boucher, Karlsson gets all of the prime RHD offensive opportunities which is quite understandable. but that's different from not being developed properly

 

[topshelf15]

I've yet to see a player who was ever able to develop hockey I.Q. It's something you have or you don't, that goes from Midget to the NHL. It's not something that is on the teachable list at the junior level, like skating/shot/strength, etc.

You can learn systems ("this is how we play, this is what I need to do"; Chris Kelly was a guy with little hockey I.Q who excelled at this type of learning; he played exactly how the team he played for wanted him too, and he was a great NHLer due to it) and develop the skills that you can learn (skating/shot/strength/passing/etc.) to improve, but if you don't have the I.Q to instinctively know what to do in the split second that it happens in the game, you're never going to develop it.

There is a reason you never see that kind of thing worked on in the NHL, if you did; or you could, guys like Jared Cowen, Cody Ceci, Curtis Lazar, MSP, and Rico Fata, etc. would have been working on it non-stop.

Disagree,Kelly had high hockey IQ... But little natural skill

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Drafting is such a crap shoot in most years and outside the top few most obvious picks.

Check out the 2014 draft.. lots of good players in the first round... a few question marks.

Pastrnak went 24th... TBL who are pretty good on draft day (we think) passed on him .. and took DeAngelo instead. Ottawa had no first.
In the 2nd
Christian Dvorak went 58th to AZ .. Ottawa picked Englund at 40 and now also have Bergman who went 46th to SJ.
TBL picked Dominik Masin at 35
in the 3rd
Sens picked Miles Gendron at 70. TBL picked Brayden Point at 79.

Hindsight is the best way to draft, incidentally.

Point has surpassed his draft ranking to say the least. But to illustrate the point.. TBL .. picked DeAngelo and Masin in 2 rounds before picking Point ..
The player the Sens would love to have back in a Karlsson deal and can't get they could have had instead of Miles Gendron.
Tampa and several other teams could have walked away with Pastrnak (24), Dvorak (58) and Point (79) .. the pundits would have ranked it a D on draft day, but imagine having those 3 in one draft now.

 

[bert]

I'm with sensung here for sure. It depends on the player. Brown was drafted 2 years ago and it ready for his first year pro. If that means some AHL time, that's fine. But he's more than likely with the big club permanently by the end of the year. This is his transition year.

As for Tkachuk, everyone knew that he was likely the most NHL ready draft prospect after Dahlin and Svechnikov and maybe Zadina. Some players are more ready to play than others. Give him his 9 games and figure it out from there. But I think he'll adapt faster than most think.

Mark Stone was a better player and more NHL ready than Brown was and played a year and a half in the AHL.

Tkachuk is far from NHL ready very far. He will bust if he plays pro this year. His scoring ability is no where close to NHL ready.

 

[bert]

Disagree,Kelly had high hockey IQ... But little natural skill

100 percent agree. His hockey sense has allowed him to play to 37. Up and down the lineup.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Mark Stone was a better player and more NHL ready than Brown was and played a year and a half in the AHL.

Tkachuk is far from NHL ready very far. He will bust if he plays pro this year. His scoring ability is no where close to NHL ready.

I disagree with everything in this post, especially the bit about how players bust because they played in the NHL too early. This just isn't the case at all. The reason why a player busts is because in the end they don;'t have what it takes to play in the NHL, it's not because they missed that one last season in junior that would have made them an NHL player.

A guy like Yak wasn't missing more development time, he was missing the ability to play effectively with the best players in the world.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I have no issues with Tkachuk's hockey sense whatsoever, just commenting on the thought that a guy can work on his hockey sense to make it better.

Ah sorry. Didn’t read trough the whole convo.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Hockey IQ aside and the fact he's very good at developing plays , Tkachuks willingness to play hockey in the blue paint and stay there is so underrated on these boards, players who can finish and play in the blue paint are almost as rare as a forward with the hockey IQ of Patrice a Bergeron. Tkachuks toughness will be a game changer for Ottawa. We haven't had a true net front presence since Heatley, and even then Heatley was all over the blue paint after the lockout when Dman couldn't touch anyone, when the league tough ended up each year and Anaheim was knocking guys out in the blue paint on their Cup run, Heatley stayed in the slot a lot more so he was only picking cherries really, Brady seems to play his hockey there and is desperate to get to blue ice.

Where are the goals?

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I disagree with everything in this post, especially the bit about how players bust because they played in the NHL too early. This just isn't the case at all. The reason why a player busts is because in the end they don;'t have what it takes to play in the NHL, it's not because they missed that one last season in junior that would have made them an NHL player.

A guy like Yak wasn't missing more development time, he was missing the ability to play effectively with the best players in the world.

If a player plays in the NHL too early their confidence can get stunted if they aren't given the proper linemates and situations.

They learn to play scared. It's why Ceci looks like he is losing confidejceebery year. We threw him to the wolves.

 

[Micklebot]

Where are the goals?

Was H.Sedin bad at developing plays or low Hockey IQ?

I mean, leading all freshman in shots (28th league wide) and his team in assists (40th in the league, if I recall) seems like a good indication that there were plenty of plays developing while Tkachuk was out there.

I think the goals will come; he scored fine in the USDP, pretty similar pace to guys like Conner, Tuch, or Keller did in their final years in that league. I think playing with Greenway as his center meant taking on the playmaker role. He's not going to be a sniper, but from what I've seen he has a nice release, and gets pucks on net. He's got soft hands in tight and will go to the slot and take abuse. He's going to score his share imo.