Tribute Brad Treliving - offseason so far

[ULF_55]

Friedman was on Fan590 this morning and said Ferris' position is, make me an offer I can't refuse or I test free agency. Tre's position should be, go right ahead and see what's out there. Maybe CBJ will be desperate enough to pay him.

Friedman asked, do you want to be a Leaf or rich? Ferris will say why not both? The Nylander deal plus $1 is the ceiling for me if the dummies are afraid to let him walk for nothing.

Leafs will carry on with or without marner.

As we all know, they're temps under contract.

 

[Rare Jewel]

I'd give him about a C grade for me, and even that feels generous.


He did the typical hockey guy thing and just collected players from previous places, Tanev from Calgary and OEL from Arizona. Both players and contracts I'm quite lukewarm on.

The Domi resigning was likely the best deal, but that was more down to Max wanting to be in Toronto than Brad's negotiating prowess.

The real roster issue was yet again not addressed, and in general, the man seems petrified to make trades beyond a mid-draft pick for a depth player for fear of possible public scrutiny; if that's the case, Shanahan has made yet another GM blunder.

 

[Bust]

Yes.

Other teams have kept their core and won.

I think hockey is a very random game and a bounce here or there can decide a game or series.

Barkov and Tkachuk were considered playoff no shows until recently and they had worse stats than our core.

Bobrovsky was the backup going into the playoffs the year before.

Past results to not always reflect future results.

Ovechkin was a loser and would never win until he did.

Since MacKinnon was drafted in Colorado their playoff record would make you think that he could never win a cup.

There lots of examples of this sort of thing.

I don't think them winning is ever likely, but I think that is the case for every team.

Whoever is favored to win next year likely won't.

I can respect your stance. I feel your stance on this is, “we have elite players, why pivot off of that”. As you’ve stated, other teams have won with their “cores”, have been patient and have garnered positive results (Stanley cup).

I guess where we need to look is to the other teams, whom have stayed patient and won with their cores.

I’m going to list some “core” level players that these past winners have moved on from.

Washington: Greene, semin, Williams

Colorado: ROR, Duchene, Barrie

Florida: Huberdeau, Weegar, Gudas

Vegas: everyone

Tampa: JT Miller, Johnson, palat/Stamkos(after cups)

Even Pittsburg moved away from their “3 headed beast” model (Crosby, Malkin, Staal down the middle).

I would say there’s a fair amount of data that backs the idea of moving assets to re-jig the makeup of these teams before they made their final push to the top.

This is not a knock on JT and Marner. They could both sign in CBJ next year and be key contributors to a cup win - I just believe there needs to be some curation here, as we’ve never attempted to build anything, only accumulate assets. We’ve done well, we have 3 elite fwds - some massaging should be (and IMO needs to be) done.

 

[Bust]

Really, is going to depend on how much Tavares gets.

I am ok with a 5 yr/15mil deal. 3m AAV
Or
A 3 year, 11mil deal. 3.6M AAV

He probably gets more on the open market.

Part of me wants to move on from JT. But maybe at around 3-4 mil he can re-establish himself. I think he’s got gas in the tank.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Data, eye-test and common sense prove that Tre has had a better handle than Dubas on this team - and hes been mostly cuffed from making meaningful change.

Everything actually supports the opposite, despite Treliving being less cuffed.

I’m going to list some “core” level players that these past winners have moved on from.
Washington: Greene, semin, Williams
Colorado: ROR, Duchene, Barrie
Florida: Huberdeau, Weegar, Gudas
Vegas: everyone
Tampa: JT Miller, Johnson, palat/Stamkos(after cups)
Even Pittsburg moved away from their “3 headed beast” model (Crosby, Malkin, Staal down the middle).

This is largely a list of secondary players (which we've also moved on from), and players moved for completely different reasons.

 

[Bust]

Everything actually supports the opposite, despite Treliving being less cuffed.

This is largely a list of secondary players (which we've also moved on from), and players moved for completely different reasons.

You literally bring nothing to the table in these threads.

Prove your claims so we can have a discussion. “Everything” supports the opposet? Name 1 thing.

Most of these guys were considered core pieces for each of these teams. Prove me wrong.

You just dismissing things doesn’t prove anything, other than your lack of intellect to separate yourself from your emotions to have a discussion.

 

[notbias]

What other team has a cap allocation like our core 4 and kept their core to gather and won. I will give you a hint
None

What team has had the same allocation as us in general?

If the answer is no one else, it is an idiotic question and the sample size is too small.

What is the perfect allocation?

Would a team of MacKinnon, McDavid, Matthews, and Bedard make you say the same thing? It's the same allocation.

It is such a boring and stupid talking point, it can be the players, but blindly yell "cap" is silly.

 

[notbias]

I can respect your stance. I feel your stance on this is, “we have elite players, why pivot off of that”. As you’ve stated, other teams have won with their “cores”, have been patient and have garnered positive results (Stanley cup).

I don't care if they pivot, I just want them to be better if they do.

Making a trade doesn't guarantee that.

I guess where we need to look is to the other teams, whom have stayed patient and won with their cores.

I’m going to list some “core” level players that these past winners have moved on from.

Washington: Greene, semin, Williams

Colorado: ROR, Duchene, Barrie

Florida: Huberdeau, Weegar, Gudas

Vegas: everyone

Tampa: JT Miller, Johnson, palat/Stamkos(after cups)

Even Pittsburg moved away from their “3 headed beast” model (Crosby, Malkin, Staal down the middle).

I would say there’s a fair amount of data that backs the idea of moving assets to re-jig the makeup of these teams before they made their final push to the top.

This is not a knock on JT and Marner. They could both sign in CBJ next year and be key contributors to a cup win - I just believe there needs to be some curation here, as we’ve never attempted to build anything, only accumulate assets. We’ve done well, we have 3 elite fwds - some massaging should be (and IMO needs to be) done.

I see a bunch of secondary players being moved.

Was the 2nd or 3rd best player moved in any of these situations?

Did the team bottom out after they were moved?

I think we can remove any team who circumvented the cap unless we can also do that, and then who cares, just bring on another $10 million in cap and don't change our roster.

The only team that really made a big move and it worked was Florida, they should thank Tre for it...

Everyone else either cheated the cap, kept their core, or sucked and drafted their best player.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner is going/hoping to do what Nylander did and force the Leafs to pay him. I just hope the dummies at MLSEL learned their lesson from Willie and wait until they see how Marner and the team perform in the playoffs before deciding if and how much to offer. Will be interesting to see how Marner performs in the playoffs with his next contract on the line.

Did MLSE learn a lesson from Willy? They didn't wait until the playoffs to sign him, and he was our best player in the playoffs.

But I agree - they should not make Marner an offer before the playoffs.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Prove your claims so we can have a discussion. “Everything” supports the opposet? Name 1 thing.
Most of these guys were considered core pieces for each of these teams. Prove me wrong.

You didn't prove your claims in the first place. You just made generic mention of things that actually support the opposite. We were visibly worse by the eye test. Our underlying data says we were worse. Our results were worse. And that's not even getting into the problematic individual decisions being made.

I'm not sure how you think you know what teams thought, but what you label them is irrelevant anyway. Simple fact is, these were less impactful players, being moved on from for different reasons. They do not support the idea of blowing this core up. It's more similar to the Kadri trade, or moving on from Hyman.

 

[Bust]

You didn't prove your claims in the first place. You just made generic mention of things that actually support the opposite. We were visibly worse by the eye test. Our underlying data says we were worse. Our results were worse. And that's not even getting into the problematic individual decisions being made.

I'm not sure how you think you know what teams thought, but what you label them is irrelevant anyway. Simple fact is, these were less impactful players, being moved on from for different reasons. They do not support the idea of blowing this core up. It's more similar to the Kadri trade, or moving on from Hyman.

Nah. You're wrong.

Cup winning Kadri? Hyman who was one of the best performers this past playoff? Maybe the issue is you not understanding what a core piece is?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Does the defensive side of the puck exist?

I think most people agree Marner is overpaid, but he is better offensively and defensively than Nylander.

Marner also led the team in points the year he was signed... I am beginning to think that Marner was underpaid compared to Nylander's current contract.

They probably used Huberdeau's contract as one of their comparables, let's not pretend Tre is some amazing negotiator.

I think most people agree Marner is overpaid, but I don't think they agree he is better offensively and defensively. I'm not sure he's better at either.

He only led the team in points (by 6) because Matthews missed 20 games.

I never even suggested that Tre was "some amazing negotiator" - just that so far he has proven to be better than Dubas, which admittedly is a very low bar.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Nah. You're wrong.
Cup winning Kadri? Hyman who was one of the best performers this past playoff? Maybe the issue is you not understanding what a core piece is?

It's interesting that you demand others prove their claims, and yet refuse to do so yourself.
Kadri, who was a secondary player for Toronto. Hyman, who was a secondary player for Toronto.
Whatever you want to label them, they are most similar to your list of players. We've moved on from pieces like that when the situation calls for it, just like those teams.
What these teams didn't do, is move their best players for lesser pieces out of impatience, and neither should we.

 

[notbias]

I think most people agree Marner is overpaid, but I don't think they agree he is better offensively and defensively. I'm not sure he's better at either.

He only led the team in points (by 6) because Matthews missed 20 games.

I never even suggested that Tre was "some amazing negotiator" - just that so far he has proven to be better than Dubas, which admittedly is a very low bar.

Treliving has the worst contract signed by a mile in Huberdeau, I disagree.

Marner statistically has produced better than Nylander.

Marner is widely considered the better defensive player and seems to be trusted by his coaching staff in the same way.

I think the bigger thing when comparing the contracts like you did is that Marner was driving the offense on the team the year he signed, Nylander wasn't.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Situation isn't similar at all.
Last off season there was a more positive outlook towards the team after finally winning a round. This year, some have completely lost their minds.
No one really concerned themselves that Nylander wasn't signed in the summer, people weren't making things up about him or trying to run him out of town.
Situation really couldn't be any more different.

I think the biggest difference was that Tre had clearly said signing Nylander was a priority, so we weren't worried, whereas he hasn't said anything like that about Marner, so some posters are losing it.

 

[rumman]

Friedman was on Fan590 this morning and said Ferris' position is, make me an offer I can't refuse or I test free agency. Tre's position should be, go right ahead and see what's out there. Maybe CBJ will be desperate enough to pay him.

Friedman asked, do you want to be a Leaf or rich? Ferris will say why not both? The Nylander deal plus $1 is the ceiling for me if the dummies are afraid to let him walk for nothing.

We’re going to find out if Tre and company sre as bad at poker as they are at building a hockey team……

 

[notDatsyuk]

False.

Honest question - why did you say it's false that Nylander scores more goals than Marner in both regular season and playoffs?

 

[Apex Predator]

How does a team with so much money seem to always end up with questionable hiring? It’s not like looking back it turned out to be bad it’s within the year you realize it’s a questionable decision.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I'd give him about a C grade for me, and even that feels generous.


He did the typical hockey guy thing and just collected players from previous places, Tanev from Calgary and OEL from Arizona. Both players and contracts I'm quite lukewarm on.

The Domi resigning was likely the best deal, but that was more down to Max wanting to be in Toronto than Brad's negotiating prowess.

The real roster issue was yet again not addressed, and in general, the man seemed petrified to make trades beyond a mid-draft pick for a depth player for fear of possibly public scrutiny; if that's the case, Shanahan has made yet another GM blunder.

What is the "real roster issue" that he could have addressed but didn't?

 

[ACC1224]

I think the biggest difference was that Tre had clearly said signing Nylander was a priority, so we weren't worried, whereas he hasn't said anything like that about Marner, so some posters are losing it.

Yes I’ve mentioned many times that’s down to the narrative around the team being much more toxic this year than last. It doesn’t mean he prefers one over the other.

 

[rumman]

How does a team with so much money seem to always end up with questionable hiring? It’s not like looking back it turned out to be bad it’s within the year you realize it’s a questionable decision.

Incompetence, from ownership on down…….

 

[Apex Predator]

Incompetence, from ownership on down…….

Probably won’t ever happen but would the leafs be better of if it was a solo owner versus corporate?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Treliving has the worst contract signed by a mile in Huberdeau, I disagree.

Marner statistically has produced better than Nylander.

Marner is widely considered the better defensive player and seems to be trusted by his coaching staff in the same way.

I think the bigger thing when comparing the contracts like you did is that Marner was driving the offense on the team the year he signed, Nylander wasn't.

I don't remember Tre having signed Huberdeau for the Leafs.

At the time of their signing their most recent contracts (which was the discussion) Marner had not produces statistically better than Nylander.

Marner was given more PK time, although apparently the stats show he wasn't very good at it, except for the occasional goal (which Willy did better this year). Let's see want a good coach does.

I'm not sure Marner was ever the line driver (I think that was JT the first year and undoubtedly Matthews since), but again, at the time if their signing their most recent contracts, Nylander is a much better line driver than Marner.

 

[ULF_55]

Probably won’t ever happen but would the leafs be better of if it was a solo owner versus corporate?

Been there done that.

Didn't really change much, and with a Salary Cap now ...

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yes I’ve mentioned many times that’s down to the narrative around the team being much more toxic this year than last. It doesn’t mean he prefers one over the other.

The "narrative around the team"? You mean fans and bloggers and posters here?

I doubt that Tre is so affected by such background noise that he wouldn't say that signing Marner was a priority if it really was. Especially since such a statement would defuse most of the toxic narrative.