Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[Dekes For Days]

Ok so nothing really concrete just a vague explanation.

You asked why. That is why. It's not just one thing, but if you're looking for the most impactful specific, the goaltending we've faced in the playoffs has been drastically different than both the goaltending we've faced in the regular season, and the goaltending teams generally face over an extended sample in the playoffs.

No we’ve just gonna 50% in every year which is stupid in itself

We've struck a good balance between giving the team a chance in our best years, while not depleting our stocks.

I would argue last year marner was not one of our 4 best players last playoffs

It wasn't his best series, but he was still one of our best players.

 

[arso40]

You asked why. That is why. It's not just one thing, but if you're looking for the most impactful specific, the goaltending we've faced in the playoffs has been drastically different than both the goaltending we've faced in the regular season, and the goaltending teams generally face over an extended sample in the playoffs.

We've struck a good balance between giving the team a chance in our best years, while not depleting our stocks.

It wasn't his best series, but he was still one of our best players.

But was he better than matthews Nylander bertuzzi knies? I can keep going if you’d like

 

[Dekes For Days]

But was he better than matthews Nylander bertuzzi knies?

It's a bit harder to compare with players who didn't play the whole series, but he was better than Knies and Bertuzzi, at the very least. Bertuzzi doesn't even belong in the conversation.

 

[arso40]

It's a bit harder to compare with players who didn't play the whole series, but he was better than Knies and Bertuzzi, at the very least. Bertuzzi doesn't even belong in the conversation.

LOL are you joking?

 

[Dekes For Days]

LOL are you joking?

There's more to hockey than sorting by points.

 

[arso40]

There's more to hockey than sorting by points.

Oh I know but the pk was trash thanks marner the pp was trash marner on there too trust me my friend the eye test is suffice

 

[Dekes For Days]

Oh I know but the pk was trash thanks marner the pp was trash marner on there too trust me my friend the eye test is suffice

The team as a whole struggled in every game state last playoffs, and required Woll standing on his head for two games to even get to game 7, but putting that all on Marner is pretty silly. You should be focused on the real culprit - Treliving.

 

[Dreakmur]

We've struck a good balance between giving the team a chance in our best years, while not depleting our stocks.

When did we do that?

We traded away 5 first round picks and 4 second round picks to get 1 playoff series win.

 

[Dekes For Days]

When did we do that?

That's actually one thing that all of the GMs have done pretty well. Our net rental expenditure was 2nd/2nd in the 2 years under Lou, Sandin/1st/2nd/2nd/3rd/3rd/4th/4th/4th in the 5 years under Dubas, and 3rd/3rd/5th/6th in the 1 year under Treliving. The amount of our rental spending aligned pretty well with the quality of our team, and we held on to our best prospects.

I'm a bit worried that might change this year. We've got to balance a key year and a wide open pathway with the fact that we just haven't been very good this season.

 

[weems]

He has done just about the most average job I could imagine.
It's actually extremely surprising that we still have the same core 5 players, two years after Dubas has left and it makes me wonder just how much pull Shanahan had this entire time. Tre's biggest current wins are the Stolarz signing and that he hasn't yet made any truly disastrous moves like trading a elite star for an underwhelming return.

This deadline is big for management and they need to come through with 1-2 really strong moves if they want to have a legit shot at the cup in my opinion.

 

[Racer88]

When did we do that?

We traded away 5 first round picks and 4 second round picks to get 1 playoff series win.

Yup. Our stocks are rock bottom

 

[Martin Skoula]

The problem was that changing the core was a complete non-starter for anyone wanting the job. Shanahan forbade it.

I get it but if the guy hiring you to be a schoolbus driver forbids you from driving sober, I still judge you for taking the job knowing the conditions on it. In fairness same goes for Dubas with FSG.

 

[Dreakmur]

That's actually one thing that all of the GMs have done pretty well. Our net rental expenditure was 2nd/2nd in the 2 years under Lou, Sandin/1st/2nd/2nd/3rd/3rd/4th/4th/4th in the 5 years under Dubas, and 3rd/3rd/5th/6th in the 1 year under Treliving. The amount of our rental spending aligned pretty well with the quality of our team, and we held on to our best prospects.

It’s more than just rental moves. We’ve had to trade futures away to remain competitive - mostly due to poor cap management, and sometimes to address poor roster construction.

Here’s a list of the top picks we moved out…

We traded two 1st for Foligno and O’Reilly. We also trade a 1st to unload Marleau. We traded a 1st to unload Mrazek. We also traded a 1st and Durzi for a year and a half of Muzzin. We traded a 1st and a 2nd for two and half years of McCabe. We traded two 2nds for a rental Giordano. We traded a 2nd for a renal Lyubushkin.

We did add back a two 1st by moving Hallander and Sandin. We also got back a 2nd in the Mrazek deal.

We’re also down some 3rd rounders over that time.

 

[Gallagbi]

It’s more than just rental moves. We’ve had to trade futures away to remain competitive - mostly due to poor cap management, and sometimes to address poor roster construction.

Here’s a list of the top picks we moved out…

We traded two 1st for Foligno and O’Reilly. We also trade a 1st to unload Marleau. We traded a 1st to unload Mrazek. We also traded a 1st and Durzi for a year and a half of Muzzin. We traded a 1st and a 2nd for two and half years of McCabe. We traded two 2nds for a rental Giordano. We traded a 2nd for a renal Lyubushkin.

We did add back a two 1st by moving Hallander and Sandin. We also got back a 2nd in the Mrazek deal.

We’re also down some 3rd rounders over that time.

Got back a first for Kapanen, which honestly seems like a steal

Lost a second to dump Ritchie

It's a crazy amount of pick movement overall

 

[Dreakmur]

Got back a first for Kapanen, which honestly seems like a steal

Whoops, I called that the Hollander trade lol

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Got back a first for Kapanen, which honestly seems like a steal

Lost a second to dump Ritchie

It's a crazy amount of pick movement overall

That was a steal, unfortunately that pick was Amirov and that's just tragic

 

[Dekes For Days]

It’s more than just rental moves. We’ve had to trade futures away to remain competitive - mostly due to poor cap management, and sometimes to address poor roster construction.
Here’s a list of the top picks we moved out…
We traded two 1st for Foligno and O’Reilly. We also trade a 1st to unload Marleau. We traded a 1st to unload Mrazek. We also traded a 1st and Durzi for a year and a half of Muzzin. We traded a 1st and a 2nd for two and half years of McCabe. We traded two 2nds for a rental Giordano. We traded a 2nd for a renal Lyubushkin.
We did add back a two 1st by moving Hallander and Sandin. We also got back a 2nd in the Mrazek deal.

Your assessment of why we traded picks and your description of the trades themselves aren't very accurate. We had Muzzin for 3 and a half years, and we would have had him for 5 and a half if not for a fluke, career-ending spinal injury. We have McCabe for 7 and a half years; 2 and a half of which have been at a crazy good price. Giordano wasn't a rental. We had him for 2 and a half years. I get you want the flashy 'we traded a 1st!', but it would be more accurate to say that we dropped 13 draft slots for the Mrazek trade, in a draft and range where the quality didn't differ much, and we reportedly ended up with the same guy we would have drafted. We got back a 1st from Kapanen, not Hallander.

Draft picks exist to help build your team. You want to use them to find multi-year players that bring surplus value, but that can be achieved through either drafting or trading. If you have an issue with using them to bring in core, multi-year top-2/4 defensemen on good contracts, I don't think you're really grasping the expected draft return on late 1st and 2nd round picks.

Spending too much on rentals can cause issues, but we didn't really do that. Florida, for example, spent basically our entire 5 year net rental expenditure in 1 year in 2022. And a team has more leeway to trade picks when they're drafting well, holding on to prospects, and supplementing the pool outside of the draft. How many picks would we have used to find a Mikheyev? Or McMann? Steeves has really taken a step this year, and there's potential for another McMann style breakout there. Not to mention older players that brought multiple years of significant surplus value on ELC-like contracts like Bunting and Spezza. What's most important is that we didn't deplete the stocks, and Treliving is currently benefitting from a number of internally developed players.

 

[Dreakmur]

Your assessment of why we traded picks and your description of the trades themselves aren't very accurate. We had Muzzin for 3 and a half years, and we would have had him for 5 and a half if not for a fluke, career-ending spinal injury.

We traded for 1.5 years of Muzzin, then we extended his contract.

We have McCabe for 7 and a half years; 2 and a half of which have been at a crazy good price.

Again, we extended his contract.

It was at an excellent price, which was required due to poor cap structure, and cost us extra assets.

Giordano wasn't a rental. We had him for 2 and a half years.

He was acquired as a rental, then we extended his contract.

Draft picks exist to help build your team. You want to use them to find multi-year players that bring surplus value, but that can be achieved through either drafting or trading. If you have an issue with using them to bring in core, multi-year top-2/4 defensemen on good contracts, I don't think you're really grasping the expected draft return on late 1st and 2nd round picks.

It’s a long term pattern that hurt the team’s future without helping the present by enough to make a difference. That’s the whole point. You think Dubas helped the present while maintaining the future, but he didn’t do either one well. He half-measured both and as a result they both suffered.

a team has more leeway to trade picks when they're drafting well

Good point, and that really could have helped set us up for the future. We should have done that!

holding on to prospects

We actually have done that!

Unfortunately we didn’t do a good job developing them while we held onto them. Sandin, Liljegren, and Robertson all declined in value as we held onto them.

and supplementing the pool outside of the draft. How many picks would we have used to find a Mikheyev? Or McMann? Steeves has really taken a step this year, and there's potential for another McMann style breakout there. Not to mention older players that brought multiple years of significant surplus value on ELC-like contracts like Bunting and Spezza. What's most important is that we didn't deplete the stocks, and Treliving is currently benefitting from a number of internally developed players.

At least you’ve stopped listing Robertson as a great asset. That’s progress!

Bringing in free agents on ELCs has been a Toronto thing for years, so it’s not unique to Dubas. Burke added Bozak, Hanson, and Stahberg. Those guys are mostly gone, just like the picks, and now we’re left with the same flawed team and very few tradable assets to make it better.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We traded for 1.5 years of Muzzin, then we extended his contract.
Again, we extended his contract.
It was at an excellent price, which was required due to poor cap structure, and cost us extra assets.
He was acquired as a rental, then we extended his contract.

We didn't have poor cap structure, and we added them at a good cost, and had/have them for multiple years providing surplus value. That's not something to complain about.

It’s a long term pattern that hurt the team’s future without helping the present by enough to make a difference.

Good teams trade futures. Welcome to the NHL. We helped the present (and in some cases the future), while keeping plenty in the stocks for the team's future.

Good point, and that really could have helped set us up for the future. We should have done that!

We did.

We actually have done that! Unfortunately we didn’t do a good job developing them while we held onto them. Sandin, Liljegren, and Robertson all declined in value as we held onto them.

We did a pretty good job developing them. At least until Treliving came along and started screwing with some of them. Sandin returned a 1st+ after we had already extracted most of the surplus value from him. That's pretty good value. Knies and McMann have increased quite a bit in value.

At least you’ve stopped listing Robertson as a great asset.

Robertson was drafted. He wasn't relevant to the list.

Bringing in free agents on ELCs has been a Toronto thing for years, so it’s not unique to Dubas. Burke added Bozak, Hanson, and Stahberg.

That's nice. It doesn't change that those assets were added. Sounds like Treliving should be able to do it too.

Those guys are mostly gone, just like the picks, and now we’re left with the same flawed team and very few tradable assets to make it better.

Treliving was handed a top tier team, and it's dropped off to a flawed mid-tier team since Treliving took over. That is primarily attributable to the poor choices Treliving has made. He's had plenty of internal help, and was the primary beneficiary of the McCabe trade. No player stays forever, but McMann and Steeves are still here. So are a number of drafted players, currently helping him. So are a bunch of picks and tradeable assets. We've also had a bunch of cap space. Treliving also has the opportunity to supplement outside of the draft and add more players like this himself. Treliving is the GM. He has been for 2 years. It is not the job of his predecessor to do all of his work for him.

 

[Dreakmur]

We didn't have poor cap structure

We did and still do.

we added them at a good cost, and had/have them for multiple years providing surplus value. That's not something to complain about.

The issue isn’t the cost of each deal in a vacuum - they weren’t terrible individually.

The issue is the cumulative cost of repeatedly doing those deals combined with the failure of those deals to provide team success.

Good teams trade futures. Welcome to the NHL. We helped the present (and in some cases the future), while keeping plenty in the stocks for the team's future.

Smart GMs know the difference between good and great. Good teams shouldn’t continually trade futures.

We did.

Sure we did. That’s why you always have to stoop all the way down to guys like Holmberg and Robertson when listing success stories.

We did a pretty good job developing them. At least until Treliving came along and started screwing with some of them.

It’s comments like these that expose your bias.

Sandin returned a 1st+ after we had already extracted most of the surplus value from him. That's pretty good value.

It was good value for what he was. What he was, however, wasn’t a testament to great development - he was closer to a failed project than anything else.

Knies and McMann have increased quite a bit in value.

They have.

Robertson was drafted. He wasn't relevant to the list.

He was one of the poorly developed assets.

That's nice. It doesn't change that those assets were added. Sounds like Treliving should be able to do it too.

Treliving did do it. It’s not something special. Dubas did it, and that’s a good thing, but the fact that you have to tout it as an accomplishment shows how far your have to reach.

Treliving was handed a top tier team

Even the team that Dubas iced for the playoffs wasn’t a top-tier team (unless your top teir is quite large).

A large portion of that team was made up of pending UFAs, many of who were only here with contract that required retention.

and it's dropped off to a flawed mid-tier team since Treliving took over.

We’ve been in the same position since. Maybe your spreadsheets don’t follow what really happens on the ice…

Tre is primarily attributable to the poor choices Treliving has made. He's had plenty of internal help, and was the primary beneficiary of the McCabe trade. No player stays forever, but McMann and Steeves are still here. So are a number of drafted players, currently helping him. So are a bunch of picks and tradeable assets. We've also had a bunch of cap space. Treliving also has the opportunity to supplement outside of the draft and add more players like this himself. Treliving is the GM. He has been for 2 years. It is not the job of his predecessor to do all of his work for him.

Tre has made some mistakes, and he’s made some good moves. I realize you need to put him down to prop up your brother from another mother Dubas, so I guess you can have fun living in that fantasy world.

 

[ToneDog]

Tre has made some mistakes, and he’s made some good moves. I realize you need to put him down to prop up your brother from another mother Dubas, so I guess you can have fun living in that fantasy world.

Just a reminder that Kyle is doing a great job in Pittsburgh. He might even get them into the playoffs before he is fired.

 

[uncleben]

Can we maybe take a break?

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

If a great job consists of fewer wins, less points, and zero playoffs success then Brad's been doing fantastic.

.677 in 2022-23 out in round 2
.622 in 2023-24 out in round 1
.618 in 2024-25 out in round ?

They haven't done anything to convince me they're a contender yet.

Because they haven't done anything... period. The team still has the exact same five core players on it as before Treliving took over. With the exact same predictable results.

But the hardest pill for fans to swallow?

They appear ready to shovel even more money into the same failed four forward experiment. When all is said and done they will have plowed close to a billion dollars into these guys bank accounts for a single series win to date. At this point it's pretty clear Treliving is no better a GM than Dubas and might actually even be worse.

Keep up the good work Brad.

 

[notDatsyuk]

This is a big trade deadline for us coming up.

I'm not so sure. It would take a trade that qualifies as highway robbery plus a big miracle (or two small ones) to make us serious Cup contenders.

You build a contender in the summer and top up at the trade deadline.

 

[GoonieFace]

Tre has stated several times that he prefers to build his team in the offseason. So I don’t see anything substantial happening, unless he is desperate