Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[Dreakmur]

How can you continue to defend Dubas when he had 1 single round win in his 5 years?

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again - people tend to root for people they feel are like them. Dubas’ failure would be perceived as an indictment of all the traits they share. The more someone identifies with those traits, the more desperate they will be to deny their failures.

 

[Dreakmur]

Dubas was and is a train wreck. He killed what should have been an awesome rebuild here.
Him and Shanny shoukd have been shown the door a few years ago

Shanahan did a lot of good things for the organization. It truly is a much better run team than it was before Shanahan was hired. Investments in providing the best of the best to the players have been excellent.

His biggest mistake - and perhaps his only one - was going all-in on Kyle Dubas.

 

[notbias]

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again - people tend to root for people they feel are like them. Dubas’ failure would be perceived as an indictment of all the traits they share. The more someone identifies with those traits, the more desperate they will be to deny their failures.

Shanahan did a lot of good things for the organization. It truly is a much better run team than it was before Shanahan was hired. Investments in providing the best of the best to the players have been excellent.

His biggest mistake - and perhaps his only one - was going all-in on Kyle Dubas.

I haven't posted in a while, but I just wanted to chime in to say these posts are hilarious back-to-back.

 

[Maple Leaf]

The guy who ruined the franchise is still employed here

 

[LeafEgo]

Shanahan did a lot of good things for the organization. It truly is a much better run team than it was before Shanahan was hired. Investments in providing the best of the best to the players have been excellent.

His biggest mistake - and perhaps his only one - was going all-in on Kyle Dubas.

Perhaps his only one, but in any serious business you die on that.

 

[Dekes For Days]

How can you continue to defend Dubas when he had 1 single round win in his 5 years

As hilarious as the failed attempts at psychoanalysis above are, it's really quite simple. I support anything that is good for the Leafs. And while no GM is perfect, he was the best GM we've had in a long time, and better than the GM we have now. Correlation does not equal causation, and I don't base my entire evaluation of a GM around the team's playoff series outcomes without context. I find that lazy and ridiculously simplistic. Same applies to Lou and Treliving.

The real question is why some refuse to acknowledge the good he did, and choose to misrepresent the things that happened. The real question is why, years after he's gone, some continue this act pretending that he's the devil incarnate. The real question is why some feel the need to attack those who feel differently about the job he did here.

 

[Dreakmur]

I haven't posted in a while, but I just wanted to chime in to say these posts are hilarious back-to-back.

If you think I’m a big Shanahan supporter, I’ve got some bad news for you. Just because I think he should be fired doesn’t mean I don’t see some of the good he did. His vision has failed, so it’s time for a different one.

I also see the good Dubas did. I used to think it was more good than bad, but a lot of the decisions I liked at the time have aged poorly, so now I think he did more bad than good.

 

[Racer88]

As hilarious as the failed attempts at psychoanalysis above are, it's really quite simple. I support anything that is good for the Leafs. And while no GM is perfect, he was the best GM we've had in a long time, and better than the GM we have now. Correlation does not equal causation, and I don't base my entire evaluation of a GM around the team's playoff series outcomes without context. I find that lazy and ridiculously simplistic. Same applies to Lou and Treliving.

The real question is why some refuse to acknowledge the good he did, and choose to misrepresent the things that happened. The real question is why, years after he's gone, some continue this act pretending that he's the devil incarnate. The real question is why some feel the need to attack those who feel differently about the job he did here.

I didn’t think I was attacking you and respect your right to your opinion. At the end of the day all any of us have are opinions and yours or mine carry no more weight then any other random HF poster.
You can go on and on about correlation and causation all you want but nothing changes the results we have seen in the playoffs.
I get it that bad luck and circumstances can affect the outcome but it is unlikely that it would result in the exact same result (first round loss) for so many years.
I’m not a Treliving fan but I find him no better or no worse the Dubas. In fact I would argue that we still have a to small sample size to compare the 2.
Dubas had 5 years an 1 single round win, let’s let Treliving have this season playoffs before we consider him worse or better

 

[ULF_55]

I’m not a Treliving fan but I find him no better or no worse the Dubas. In fact I would argue that we still have a to small sample size to compare the 2.
Dubas had 5 years an 1 single round win, let’s let Treliving have this season playoffs before we consider him worse or better

Treliving needs another couple years to prove his failure. Could still prove himself, but he has an up hill battle.

Dubas had enough time. Was provided a much better hand to play.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I didn’t think I was attacking you and respect your right to your opinion. At the end of the day all any of us have are opinions and yours or mine carry no more weight then any other random HF poster.
You can go on and on about correlation and causation all you want but nothing changes the results we have seen in the playoffs.
I get it that bad luck and circumstances can affect the outcome but it is unlikely that it would result in the exact same result (first round loss) for so many years.
I’m not a Treliving fan but I find him no better or no worse the Dubas. In fact I would argue that we still have a to small sample size to compare the 2.
Dubas had 5 years an 1 single round win, let’s let Treliving have this season playoffs before we consider him worse or better

You're generally not one of the ones that attacks posters. We've had some legitimate back and forths, and I respect that. Our discussions often end up at the same spot though. Your entire evaluation of a GM seems to hinge on the team's playoff outcome, and relying on correlation to equal causation. That's just not something I can agree with. That's a logical fallacy for a reason, and there's such a disconnect between the outcome of a game and the broader performance of a GM.

It's true that our record is unlikely, but it's unlikely because what we've experienced over the years has been unlikely, not because the outcomes themselves have been unlikely given the circumstances. Many of the alternative claims rely on even less likely scenarios to be true. I agree with having patience, but we're almost two years in, and my position doesn't rely as heavily on playoff outcomes. It's hard to ignore the poor direction, poor execution, and how much our team has dropped off as a result. He was set up for success, and we should be peaking right now.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Treliving needs another couple years to prove his failure. Could still prove himself, but he has an up hill battle.

Dubas had enough time. Was provided a much better hand to play.

In what world do we have a couple years? Giving someone too much time with a 22 year old core doesn’t mean you have to give a guy the same amount of time with a 28 year old core to make it fair. It was obvious we needed a Burke/Rutherford type to come in and put their stamp on the team quickly, nibbling at the edges for 5 years until the core is 32 should have been a complete non-starter.

 

[Rare Jewel]

You're generally not one of the ones that attacks posters. We've had some legitimate back and forths, and I respect that. Our discussions often end up at the same spot though. Your entire evaluation of a GM seems to hinge on the team's playoff outcome, and relying on correlation to equal causation. That's just not something I can agree with. That's a logical fallacy for a reason, and there's such a disconnect between the outcome of a game and the broader performance of a GM.

It's true that our record is unlikely, but it's unlikely because what we've experienced over the years has been unlikely, not because the outcomes themselves have been unlikely given the circumstances. Many of the alternative claims rely on even less likely scenarios to be true. I agree with having patience, but we're almost two years in, and my position doesn't rely as heavily on playoff outcomes. It's hard to ignore the poor direction, poor execution, and how much our team has dropped off as a result. He was set up for success, and we should be peaking right now.

I'm genuinely curious and honest when I ask this: have you worked for Dubas in any capacity, whether it be SSM, Marlies or Leafs?

 

[ULF_55]

In what world do we have a couple years? Giving someone too much time with a 22 year old core doesn’t mean you have to give a guy the same amount of time with a 28 year old core to make it fair. It was obvious we needed a Burke/Rutherford type to come in and put their stamp on the team quickly, nibbling at the edges for 5 years until the core is 32 should have been a complete non-starter.

I wouldn't have given him the first year, but since Leafs last GM fired himself late in the season I think they just panicked and took low hanging fruit.

I think Leafs best years are the next 3-4 and it is difficult to change jockey's in mid race.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'm genuinely curious and honest when I ask this: have you worked for Dubas in any capacity, whether it be SSM, Marlies or Leafs?

Of course not. Never met the guy in my life. Don't give two shits about him beyond what he did for the Leafs. It's really concerning how many people seem to think that somebody can't disagree with them about something without being on a payroll.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Of course not. Never met the guy in my life. Don't give two shits about him beyond what he did for the Leafs. It's really concerning how many people seem to think that somebody can't disagree with them about something without being on a payroll.

No, no, I was just genuinely curious. It doesn't change things for me, and I welcome the disagreement.

 

[ClarkSittler]

Our defensive play has actually been horrible. The best in decades came under the previous GM, and we've downgraded pretty significantly since. We have put up the 23rd best defensive results in the league this year. We are allowing 3.15 xGA/60, which is the second worst of the Matthews era, behind only last year's 3.17 (also under Treliving).

Offensively, we rank lower than we ever have (12th) and are scoring less goals than we have since 2016-2017, when league scoring was lower. This is also the worst we've ever ranked in offensive chance generation (11th).

Our goaltending this year ranks 5th, which has largely saved our season. But while Stolarz has had a great 18 games, it's nothing we haven't seen in a small sample before, and the majority of our GSAx is from Woll, who wasn't from Treliving. He was drafted by Lou, and signed to an amazing deal by Dubas. Treliving just got the benefit of existing when he was developed and ready.

We're on pace for our worst record in the past half decade, and we're putting up the worst underlying metrics in the Matthews era.

I don't have an idol. You're the one creating a thread to idolize a GM. The Penguins are irrelevant, and the only thing destroying them is age, which nobody escapes. Your whataboutisms are a deflection from the real issue. That by any objective evaluation, Treliving is in fact not "doing a great job".

And yet those great rankings and metrics, under our former GM, culminated in winning a total of one game beyond the first round of the playoffs. Yay!

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Of course not. Never met the guy in my life. Don't give two shits about him beyond what he did for the Leafs. It's really concerning how many people seem to think that somebody can't disagree with them about something without being on a payroll.

Thing is you have never been critical of Dubas, you can say you have but you can't point to single example because it doesn't exist.

When that is the case people will assume you are on the payroll

 

[horner]

Our defensive play has actually been horrible. The best in decades came under the previous GM, and we've downgraded pretty significantly since. We have put up the 23rd best defensive results in the league this year. We are allowing 3.15 xGA/60, which is the second worst of the Matthews era, behind only last year's 3.17 (also under Treliving).

Offensively, we rank lower than we ever have (12th) and are scoring less goals than we have since 2016-2017, when league scoring was lower. This is also the worst we've ever ranked in offensive chance generation (11th).

Our goaltending this year ranks 5th, which has largely saved our season. But while Stolarz has had a great 18 games, it's nothing we haven't seen in a small sample before, and the majority of our GSAx is from Woll, who wasn't from Treliving. He was drafted by Lou, and signed to an amazing deal by Dubas. Treliving just got the benefit of existing when he was developed and ready.

We're on pace for our worst record in the past half decade, and we're putting up the worst underlying metrics in the Matthews era.

I don't have an idol. You're the one creating a thread to idolize a GM. The Penguins are irrelevant, and the only thing destroying them is age, which nobody escapes. Your whataboutisms are a deflection from the real issue. That by any objective evaluation, Treliving is in fact not "doing a great job".

The problem is the previous GM it seems went all in every year, at some point it was going to catch up with us..
Most leaf fans knew that the core 4 wasn't working, now the new GM will be blamed if Marner walks out the door for free.

Our new GM had nothing left when he showed up and very little cap space.

We didn't even have a defenseman or a centerman in the minors to call up.

O'Reilly noticed something that he didn't like

Out of all of the draft picks we have McCabe
McCabe was a good trade

 

[Dreakmur]

In what world do we have a couple years? Giving someone too much time with a 22 year old core doesn’t mean you have to give a guy the same amount of time with a 28 year old core to make it fair. It was obvious we needed a Burke/Rutherford type to come in and put their stamp on the team quickly, nibbling at the edges for 5 years until the core is 32 should have been a complete non-starter.

The problem was that changing the core was a complete non-starter for anyone wanting the job. Shanahan forbade it.

 

[thewave]

His job should be noticing how terrible Marner has been at competitive hockey before signing that big contract

 

[Dekes For Days]

Thing is you have never been critical of Dubas

Except that's not true. I've been critical of things he did over the years, and I was literally discussing with Rare Jewel a couple weeks ago some of the things I disagreed with. But there's less to be critical of when most of the moves are well-reasoned, and the GM has provided a net positive impact and improved the team to a 110-115 point level with good balance and strong underlying metrics through some really difficult league/team situations. And it's hard to have reasonable discussions about legitimate criticisms when people are too busy spreading misinformation, pretending everything he did was apocalyptic, and attacking posters who don't share their exaggerated hate and disregard for reality.

You're not discussing the GM right now. You're misrepresenting me and perpetuating ridiculous conspiracy theories about MLSE paying people to post on HFBoards. Ironically, if that were happening, the most suspicious thing would be somebody creating a thread to prematurely praise Treliving for doing a "great job" before any hockey had even been played.

The problem is the previous GM it seems went all in every year, at some point it was going to catch up with us..

We've never gone "all in". People don't seem to get what "all in" means. And for the record, through the Matthews era, we acquired rentals in all of the seasons under Lou and Treliving, while we only acquired rentals in 3 of the 5 seasons under Dubas (and only when we were a top 5 team in the league).

Our net rental expenditure in the 5 years under Dubas was Sandin/1st/2nd/2nd/3rd/3rd/4th/4th/4th. That's not "all in", or unreasonable for a team in our position. Heck, that's essentially what Florida paid for rentals in one year in 2022. And it didn't prevent them from winning the cup a couple years later.

And it didn't really "catch up with us". Treliving is benefiting from a number of internally drafted and/or developed players (not to mention McCabe at 2m). 8 Dubas-era prospects have played games for the Leafs this year, and 4 have regular roster spots. This despite our highest drafted prospect from that era dying, and our second highest drafted player from that era being traded for our current top prospect after extracting most of his surplus value. The problem is the decisions Treliving is making to surround them.

Most leaf fans knew that the core 4 wasn't working, now the new GM will be blamed if Marner walks out the door for free. Our new GM had nothing left when he showed up and very little cap space.

The core four does work, and Treliving has had ample opportunity to change things up if he wanted. Of course Treliving would be blamed if he lets Marner walk! He would be the one making that franchise-crippling move!

Treliving was handed a 111 point team, with great underlying metrics, a good coach, a strong core, most of our picks, a number of prospects approaching NHL readiness, and a bunch of cap space every year. He's had abundant opportunity to shape the team how he wanted, and so far he's turned what should be our peak era into a significant downgrade.

 

[thewave]

Except that's not true. I've been critical of things he did over the years, and I was literally discussing with Rare Jewel a couple weeks ago some of the things I disagreed with. But there's less to be critical of when most of the moves are well-reasoned, and the GM has provided a net positive impact and improved the team to a 110-115 point level with good balance and strong underlying metrics through some really difficult league/team situations. And it's hard to have reasonable discussions about legitimate criticisms when people are too busy spreading misinformation, pretending everything he did was apocalyptic, and attacking posters who don't share their exaggerated hate and disregard for reality.

You're not discussing the GM right now. You're misrepresenting me and perpetuating ridiculous conspiracy theories about MLSE paying people to post on HFBoards. Ironically, if that were happening, the most suspicious thing would be somebody creating a thread to prematurely praise Treliving for doing a "great job" before any hockey had even been played.

We've never gone "all in". People don't seem to get what "all in" means. And for the record, through the Matthews era, we acquired rentals in all of the seasons under Lou and Treliving, while we only acquired rentals in 3 of the 5 seasons under Dubas (and only when we were a top 5 team in the league).

Our net rental expenditure in the 5 years under Dubas was Sandin/1st/2nd/2nd/3rd/3rd/4th/4th/4th. That's not "all in", or unreasonable for a team in our position. Heck, that's essentially what Florida paid for rentals in one year in 2022. And it didn't prevent them from winning the cup a couple years later.

And it didn't really "catch up with us". Treliving is benefiting from a number of internally drafted and/or developed players. 8 Dubas-era prospects have played games for the Leafs this year, and 4 have regular roster spots. This despite our highest drafted prospect from that era dying, and our second highest drafted player from that era being traded for our current top prospect after extracting most of his surplus value. The problem is the decisions Treliving is making to surround them.

The core four does work, and Treliving has had ample opportunity to change things up if he wanted. Of course Treliving would be blamed if he lets Marner walk! He would be the one making that franchise-crippling move!

Treliving was handed a 111 point team, with great underlying metrics, a good coach, a strong core, most of our picks, a number of prospects approaching NHL readiness, and a bunch of cap space every year. He's had abundant opportunity to shape the team how he wanted, and so far he's turned what should be our peak era into a significant downgrade.

The core 4 does not work in the playoffs. The core 4 is overpaid. How can the core 4 work so well in the regular season and fail every time in the playoffs with the same roster giving them regular season success.

Explain

 

[Dekes For Days]

How can the core 4 work so well in the regular season and fail every time in the playoffs with the same roster giving them regular season success. Explain

The core 4 remain our best players in the playoffs. Our rosters have gotten different outcomes in the regular season and playoffs because what we've faced/experienced in the playoffs has been quite abnormal; not only relative to the regular season, but relative to what teams usually experience in the playoffs.

 

[thewave]

The core 4 remain our best players in the playoffs. Our rosters have gotten different outcomes in the regular season and playoffs because what we've faced/experienced in the playoffs has been quite abnormal; not only relative to the regular season, but relative to what teams usually experience in the playoffs.

Ok so nothing really concrete just a vague explanation. So you are an apologist?

 

[arso40]

Except that's not true. I've been critical of things he did over the years, and I was literally discussing with Rare Jewel a couple weeks ago some of the things I disagreed with. But there's less to be critical of when most of the moves are well-reasoned, and the GM has provided a net positive impact and improved the team to a 110-115 point level with good balance and strong underlying metrics through some really difficult league/team situations. And it's hard to have reasonable discussions about legitimate criticisms when people are too busy spreading misinformation, pretending everything he did was apocalyptic, and attacking posters who don't share their exaggerated hate and disregard for reality.

You're not discussing the GM right now. You're misrepresenting me and perpetuating ridiculous conspiracy theories about MLSE paying people to post on HFBoards. Ironically, if that were happening, the most suspicious thing would be somebody creating a thread to prematurely praise Treliving for doing a "great job" before any hockey had even been played.

We've never gone "all in". People don't seem to get what "all in" means. And for the record, through the Matthews era, we acquired rentals in all of the seasons under Lou and Treliving, while we only acquired rentals in 3 of the 5 seasons under Dubas (and only when we were a top 5 team in the league).

Our net rental expenditure in the 5 years under Dubas was Sandin/1st/2nd/2nd/3rd/3rd/4th/4th/4th. That's not "all in", or unreasonable for a team in our position. Heck, that's essentially what Florida paid for rentals in one year in 2022. And it didn't prevent them from winning the cup a couple years later.

And it didn't really "catch up with us". Treliving is benefiting from a number of internally drafted and/or developed players (not to mention McCabe at 2m). 8 Dubas-era prospects have played games for the Leafs this year, and 4 have regular roster spots. This despite our highest drafted prospect from that era dying, and our second highest drafted player from that era being traded for our current top prospect after extracting most of his surplus value. The problem is the decisions Treliving is making to surround them.

The core four does work, and Treliving has had ample opportunity to change things up if he wanted. Of course Treliving would be blamed if he lets Marner walk! He would be the one making that franchise-crippling move!

Treliving was handed a 111 point team, with great underlying metrics, a good coach, a strong core, most of our picks, a number of prospects approaching NHL readiness, and a bunch of cap space every year. He's had abundant opportunity to shape the team how he wanted, and so far he's turned what should be our peak era into a significant downgrade.

No we’ve just gonna 50% in every year which is stupid in itself

The core 4 remain our best players in the playoffs. Our rosters have gotten different outcomes in the regular season and playoffs because what we've faced/experienced in the playoffs has been quite abnormal; not only relative to the regular season, but relative to what teams usually experience in the playoffs.

I would argue last year marner was not one of our 4 best players last playoffs so there’s that