Bourque vs Lidstrom: Who's better and why

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Then let's not talk strictly about the Hart itself. We're able to form our own opinions about things; we all watch hockey too.

TDDM has listed the years in which he believes Lidstrom was a top three player. Which seasons do the rest of you have him that high?

Not exactly. I listed years I thought Lidstrom had a case for being the best player.

Top 3 player?

Add 2000 - I think Lidstrom was probably the 3rd best player in the world that year behind Pronger and Jagr. Yes, better than one-dimensional Bure (but less valuable than Bure because of teammates).

I already said 2001 - Lidstrom won the Norris in a laugher over Bourque. Only a career year from Joe Sakic and a dominant half season from Mario Lemieux keeps Lidstrom from the top spot. And I think you could still make an argument for Lidstrom.

2002 was one of Lidstrom's best seasons. While Chelios was a close 2nd in Norris voting, we all saw in the playoffs who the better player was. Playoffs included, Lidstrom is the best player in the world easily. Even without playoffs, his competition was Theodore, Roy, and Iginla.

Add 2003. I think Forsberg was clearly the best player that season, but I'd put Lidstrom in the top 3 with Naslund.

Definitely not 2004.

I already said there is a good argument Lidstrom was the best player in the world in 2006. 80 points in 80 games while still at his defensive peak.

2007 is tough. I think Lidstrom was almost as good as 2006, but competition was ridiculously fierce as Crosby, Brodeur, Luongo, and Lecavalier all had the best regular season of each one's respective career.

Add 2008. The only reason I didn't list this season is because I thought Ovechkin was clearly the best player in the world. But Lidstrom finished 4th in Hart voting and you aren't going to convince me that Jarome Iginla (who finished 3rd) was a better player that season.

So from 2000-2008, only 2004 stands out as a season where Lidstrom definitely wasn't a top 3 player in the in any given year.

IMO, Lidstrom was probably a top 3 player in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, and 2008, and only fierce competition may have kept him from being the same in 2007.

 

[Hobnobs]

Not exactly. I listed years I thought Lidstrom had a case for being the best player.

Top 3 player?

Add 2000 - I think Lidstrom was probably the 3rd best player in the world that year behind Pronger and Jagr. Yes, better than one-dimensional Bure (but less valuable than Bure because of teammates).

I already said 2001 - Lidstrom won the Norris in a laugher over Bourque. Only a career year from Joe Sakic and a dominant half season from Mario Lemieux keeps Lidstrom from the top spot. And I think you could still make an argument for Lidstrom.

2002 was one of Lidstrom's best seasons. While Chelios was a close 2nd in Norris voting, we all saw in the playoffs who the better player was. Playoffs included, Lidstrom is the best player in the world easily. Even without playoffs, his competition was Theodore, Roy, and Iginla.

Add 2003. I think Forsberg was clearly the best player that season, but I'd put Lidstrom in the top 3 with Naslund.

Definitely not 2004.

I already said there is a good argument Lidstrom was the best player in the world in 2006. 80 points in 80 games while still at his defensive peak.

2007 is tough. I think Lidstrom was almost as good as 2006, but competition was ridiculously fierce as Crosby, Brodeur, Luongo, and Lecavalier all had the best regular season of each one's respective career.

Add 2008. The only reason I didn't list this season is because I thought Ovechkin was clearly the best player in the world. But Lidstrom finished 4th in Hart voting and you aren't going to convince me that Jarome Iginla (who finished 3rd) was a better player that season.

So from 2000-2008, only 2004 stands out as a season where Lidstrom definitely wasn't a top 3 player in the in any given year.

IMO, Lidstrom was probably a top 3 player in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, and 2008, and only fierce competition may have kept him from being the same in 2007.

Desperate competition argument incoming because of your knowledgable argument here.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I haven't done this yet myself, so I might be surprised at the results, but what years would we say that Bourque was one of the top-3 in the world?

Top-3 minus Gretzky/Lemieux?

 

[danincanada]

Then let's not talk strictly about the Hart itself. We're able to form our own opinions about things; we all watch hockey too.

TDDM has listed the years in which he believes Lidstrom was a top three player. Which seasons do the rest of you have him that high?

TDDM mentioned 2002 and 2006 and maybe 2007 and 2001. I think that's a fair assessment and I would probably add 1998 to those years.

Lidstrom should have won the Norris that season and was also the top defenseman in the playoffs, making up for the loss of Konstantinov. That puts him up there in the argument for top skater in the world that hockey year. Offensive forwards, and especially guys who didn't really play a complete two-way game, get too much attention and praise IMO. In terms of true on ice value Lidstrom should be seen as just as valuable as them, if not more. It's all about who helps his team win hockey games and Lidstrom definitely did that in '98. He played more than someone like Jagr and played in every critical situation, unlike someone like Jagr.

 

[quoipourquoi]

IMO, Lidstrom was probably a top 3 player in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, and 2008, and only fierce competition may have kept him from being the same in 2007.

You see, for me, while I consider his 2000 and 2006 seasons to be better than a lot of top three seasons from different years, the only year in which I think he was top three for that particular season was probably 2008. I don't see him as being more talented than any of the nominees in 2000, 2001, Iginla or any of the three top goalies in 2002, Forsberg/Naslund/Turco in 2003, the Hart nominees in 2006, or the nominees and Pronger in 2007. 2008, he's behind Ovechkin and Malkin at the very least, but after the way Leclaire fell apart after the trade deadline, I could see Lidstrom being #3 in that season. But that's it from my eyes.

 

[DarkReign]

Following arguments will go as such;

a) Ray played against better comp
b) Ray was the B's best player
c) Ray was offensive dynamo
d) Ray never played on good teams
e) Ray has more 1st Team AS selections

Therefore, Bourque is better.

Although I dont agree with any of it.

 

[overpass]

I'm sorry, in the 80s you had Mark Howe and Rod Langway as Hart finalists. Does anyone really believe that those two were more dominant than Lidstrom?

The 80s Hart voting was unusual, because Gretzky was so far ahead of everyone else it didn't really matter who else you put on the ballot.

It looks like other forwards in particular were hurt by this, because they were directly comparable to Gretzky and Gretzky was so obviously better.

This isn't a problem with Hart voting. Hart voting was intended to pick the top player, and it served it's purpose. It is a problem when Hart voting is extrapolated into something more than it was designed for.

 

[overpass]

2007 is tough. I think Lidstrom was almost as good as 2006, but competition was ridiculously fierce as Crosby, Brodeur, Luongo, and Lecavalier all had the best regular season of each one's respective career.

The East was weak that year. I'm not sure any of Crosby, Lecavalier, and Brodeur were top 3.

Detroit alone had 3 players better than the overrated floater Lecavalier.

Crosby scored a ton of points on a stacked Pens PP, but he slumped in the last quarter while playing on an injured foot and was a non-factor in the playoffs. He was also much less well-rounded back then, less of a defensive contributor. And again, the East was weak.

Salic and Pronger were both in the mix for top 3 as well.

 

[tarheelhockey]

e) Ray has more 1st Team AS selections


Although I dont agree with any of it.

You don't agree that Ray has more AS selections? I'd like to see your counter argument

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The East was weak that year. I'm not sure any of Crosby, Lecavalier, and Brodeur were top 3.

Detroit alone had 3 players better than the overrated floater Lecavalier.

Crosby scored a ton of points on a stacked Pens PP, but he slumped in the last quarter while playing on an injured foot and was a non-factor in the playoffs. He was also much less well-rounded back then, less of a defensive contributor. And again, the East was weak.

Salic and Pronger were both in the mix for top 3 as well.

Lecavalier was absolutely not a floater in 2007. Pat Burns thought that Lecavalier was the best and most complete player in the world at the time. Yeah, it didn't last long, but he was awesome in 2007. Maybe Lidstrom was better, but Lidstrom wasn't quite as good in 2007 as he was in 2006 or 2008, I thought

 

[Sens Rule]

I'm sorry, in the 80s you had Mark Howe and Rod Langway as Hart finalists. Does anyone really believe that those two were more dominant than Lidstrom?

Howe was VERY similar at his best to Lidstrom at his best. Langway was unique in making the Capitals from a terrible team into a 90-100 point team.. and massively reducing their goals against. Still Langway seemed to get crazy Norris and Hart votes that were beyond what he might have gotten even a few years before or after.

 

[Sens Rule]

Following arguments will go as such;

a) Ray played against better comp
b) Ray was the B's best player
c) Ray was offensive dynamo
d) Ray never played on good teams
e) Ray has more 1st Team AS selections

Therefore, Bourque is better.

Although I dont agree with any of it.

How about saw Bourque play and he was better?

 

[Rhiessan71]

Some good arguments and points...too bad none of them have even touched my point about Bourque being an all-star immediately at 18.
Lidstrom's first year, where he took his first real step at being that elite d-men was '96 imo and even then he still had a bit to go before he became the player we saw in '98 and later.

Again, Lidstrom was 26.
By 26, Bourque was already in his 8th season, had 8 all-star selections (5 of them first team) and a Norris along with 2 second, 2 third and 3 fourth place finishes already.
And we're still just talking about the beginning of Bourque's career, the tip of the iceberg.

I guess my question is this...when exactly did Lidstrom make up this gap?

He didn't and hasn't.
Even if we stipulate that Lidstrom's last few years are on par with Bourque's final few years and even if we say that Lidstrom prime from '97-'07 matches up to Bourque's '86-'96. What's Lidstrom got left to go up against Bourque's '79-'85?
NOTHING, that's what!

 

[tarheelhockey]

Significant Hart finishes from defensemen in the post-expansion era:

1967-68
1. Stan Mikita, Chi C 52 (34-18)
2. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 43 (4-39)
3. Bobby Hull, Chi LW 32 (32-0)
4. Bobby Orr, Bos D 29 (29-0)

1968-69
1. Phil Esposito, Bos C 133
2. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 47
3. Bobby Orr, Bos D 44

1969-70
1. Bobby Orr, Bos D 156
2. Tony Esposito, Chi G 110
3. Red Berenson, St. L C 12

1970-71
1. Bobby Orr, Bos D 151
2. Phil Esposito, Bos G 127
3. Bobby Hull, Chi C 28

1971-72
1. Bobby Orr, Bos D 126
2. Ken Dryden, Mtl G 89
3. Phil Esposito, Bos C 57

1972-73
1. Bobby Clarke, Phi C 158
2. Phil Esposito, Bos C 96
3. Bobby Orr, Bos D 63

1973-74
1. Phil Esposito, Bos C 149
2. Bernie Parent, Phi G 114
3. Bobby Orr, Bos D 73

1974-75
1. Bobby Clarke 127
2. Rogie Vachon 113
3. Bobby Orr 73

1975-76
1. Bobby Clarke 246
2. Denis Potvin 75
3. Guy Lafleur 62

1976-77
1. Guy Lafleur 177
2. Bobby Clarke 83
3. Rogie Vachon 45
4. Borje Salming 40

1978-79
1. Bryan Trottier, NYI C 201
2. Guy Lafleur, Mtl RW 84
3. Marcel Dionne, LA C 47
4. Denis Potvin, NYI D 46

1983-84
1. Wayne Gretzky 306 (60-2-0)
2. Rod Langway 102 (1-26-19)
3. Bryan Trottier 54 (1-14-7)

1985-86
1. Wayne Gretzky 281 (54-3-2)
2. Mario Lemieux 163 (4-46-5)
3. Mark Howe 32 (0-5-17)
4. Paul Coffey 29 (1-4-12)

1986-87
1. Wayne Gretzky 255 (49-3-1)
2. Ray Bourque 95 (2-24-13)
3. Mike Liut 39 (1-7-13)

1989-90
1. Mark Messier 227 (29-24-10)
2. Ray Bourque 225 (29-26-2)
3. Brett Hull 80 (4-9-33)

1994-95
1. Eric Lindros 63 (10-4-1)
2. Jaromir Jagr 27 (2-4-5)
3. Dominik Hasek 23 (3-2-2)
4. Paul Coffey 15 (0-4-3)

1999-2000
1. Chris Pronger 396 (25-9-11-8-4)
2. Jaromir Jagr 395 (18-22-9-4-4)
3. Pavel Bure 346 (11-18-16-9-3)

2007-08
1. Alex Ovechkin, WSH 1313 (128-4-1-0-0)
2. Evgeni Malkin, PIT 659 (1-66-27-13-13)
3. Jarome Iginla, CGY 565 (2-41-33-26-15)
4. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 246 (2-7-17-24-20)




Don't just look at the rankings, but the vote totals... how close the players actually were to first place. After Orr, you have a few guys who finished in the extreme distance, nipping at 2nd and 3rd place votes. Lidstrom is in that group, with Potvin, Salming, Langway, Howe and Coffey. Then you have Pronger in a perfect-storm season he never came close to duplicating.

Then you have Ray Bourque, first finishing in a distant 2nd to Gretzky and then legitimately contending for a win against Messier's career season.

This business about "roles changing" or "for whatever reason people just don't vote for defensemen anymore" is invalid. It might apply if this was a Lidstrom vs Shore thread, but we are talking about two contemporaries. Bourque was simply THAT good in 1990 relative to the entire crop of post-expansion defensemen, and one has to wonder about 1987 if he hadn't been up against Gretzky's 1000-points-in-5-years phase (and he still got 2 first-place votes FFS).

 

[toob]

Not exactly. I listed years I thought Lidstrom had a case for being the best player.

Top 3 player?

Add 2000 - I think Lidstrom was probably the 3rd best player in the world that year behind Pronger and Jagr. Yes, better than one-dimensional Bure (but less valuable than Bure because of teammates).

I already said 2001 - Lidstrom won the Norris in a laugher over Bourque. Only a career year from Joe Sakic and a dominant half season from Mario Lemieux keeps Lidstrom from the top spot. And I think you could still make an argument for Lidstrom.

2002 was one of Lidstrom's best seasons. While Chelios was a close 2nd in Norris voting, we all saw in the playoffs who the better player was. Playoffs included, Lidstrom is the best player in the world easily. Even without playoffs, his competition was Theodore, Roy, and Iginla.

Add 2003. I think Forsberg was clearly the best player that season, but I'd put Lidstrom in the top 3 with Naslund.

Definitely not 2004.

I already said there is a good argument Lidstrom was the best player in the world in 2006. 80 points in 80 games while still at his defensive peak.

2007 is tough. I think Lidstrom was almost as good as 2006, but competition was ridiculously fierce as Crosby, Brodeur, Luongo, and Lecavalier all had the best regular season of each one's respective career.

Add 2008. The only reason I didn't list this season is because I thought Ovechkin was clearly the best player in the world. But Lidstrom finished 4th in Hart voting and you aren't going to convince me that Jarome Iginla (who finished 3rd) was a better player that season.

So from 2000-2008, only 2004 stands out as a season where Lidstrom definitely wasn't a top 3 player in the in any given year.

IMO, Lidstrom was probably a top 3 player in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, and 2008, and only fierce competition may have kept him from being the same in 2007.

disagree with a lot of this

Yzerman was better on the same team in 00 and probly not top 3 and in 01 and 02 Yzerman was also better when he was playing and Fedorov and Yzerman were better in the 02 playoffs however taking playoffs into account Lidstrom is most likely top 3

03 is Lidstrom's best season defensively i think and underrated offensively because the Red Wing forwards werent as good offensively however i would say Fedorov is the best player on the Wings

06 Lidstrom is the best Red Wing but hardly can be considered top 3 with all the great performances by forwards and in 07 it is a tough call between Datsyuk and Lidstrom (Z and his injury place him out of it but when playing throw him in too) but again too many good forward performances to say Lids is top 3

08 Lidstrom places higher than ever before in Hart voting but this season both Datsyuk and Zetterberg were better than him yes Z missed games with injury but i cant be the only one who remembers what they were saying about him earlier in the season

Detroit alone had 3 players better than the overrated floater Lecavalier.

huh?



ok i guess Vinny did cherry pick on the penalty kill quite a bit to score all those shorthanded goals but aside from that?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

disagree with a lot of this

Yzerman was better on the same team in 00 and probly not top 3 and in 01 and 02 Yzerman was also better when he was playing and Fedorov and Yzerman were better in the 02 playoffs however taking playoffs into account Lidstrom is most likely top 3

In 2000, Yzerman scored 79 points compared to Lidstrom's 73. I realize that Yzerman won the Selke, but do you really think that he was close to Lidstrom's value defensively?

The Conn Smythe voters obviously disagree with you about who was better in the 2002 playoffs.

Fedorov outscored Lidstrom by a good margin in 2003, so he might have a case there. Maybe Lidstrom wasn't top 3 that year - his point totals were definitely down.

 

[overpass]

ok i guess Vinny did cherry pick on the penalty kill quite a bit to score all those shorthanded goals but aside from that?

Floater was the wrong word, I take that back.

But Lecavalier was facing very weak opposition compared to, say, Datsyuk and Zetterberg that year. Brad Richards drew the toughest assignments for TB, and Lecavalier got the easier matchups. He also got a lot of offensive zone faceoffs. All that in the weakest division in the weaker conference, at a time when there was a big gap between the conferences. It's a lot easier to look good and put up big numbers in that kind of situation.

Finishing third in scoring in that context isn't enough to put him anywhere near the top three players in the game. Detroit alone had three better players.

 

[nik jr]

Floater was the wrong word, I take that back.

But Lecavalier was facing very weak opposition compared to, say, Datsyuk and Zetterberg that year. Brad Richards drew the toughest assignments for TB, and Lecavalier got the easier matchups. He also got a lot of offensive zone faceoffs. All that in the weakest division in the weaker conference, at a time when there was a big gap between the conferences. It's a lot easier to look good and put up big numbers in that kind of situation.

Finishing third in scoring in that context isn't enough to put him anywhere near the top three players in the game. Detroit alone had three better players.

martin st louis looked better than lecavalier in every TBL game i saw in '07.

i saw st louis doing more dirty work and lecavalier looking to leave the defensive zone early.

 

[toob]

In 2000, Yzerman scored 79 points compared to Lidstrom's 73. I realize that Yzerman won the Selke, but do you really think that he was close to Lidstrom's value defensively?

The Conn Smythe voters obviously disagree with you about who was better in the 2002 playoffs.

Fedorov outscored Lidstrom by a good margin in 2003, so he might have a case there. Maybe Lidstrom wasn't top 3 that year - his point totals were definitely down.

you cant really compare forward and defenseman (Lids is not a special case like Orr or Coffey) point totals like that at all as a measure who was what offensively as Yzerman was clearly much better offensively than Lidstrom despite the close point totals and youd just have to watch them play (look at plays where they both got a point)

yeah i disagree with the voters there - it happens

the thing with Lids 03 is that statistically it doesnt look as good but look at what was going on with coaching and up front (Stevie missed most of the season) the production in 01 or 06 or 08 is higher but look at the forwards for that

 

[canucks4ever]

you cant really compare forward and defenseman (Lids is not a special case like Orr or Coffey) point totals like that at all as a measure who was what offensively as Yzerman was clearly much better offensively than Lidstrom despite the close point totals and youd just have to watch them play (look at plays where they both got a point)

yeah i disagree with the voters there - it happens

the thing with Lids 03 is that statistically it doesnt look as good but look at what was going on with coaching and up front (Stevie missed most of the season) the production in 01 or 06 or 08 is higher but look at the forwards for that

You clearly dont know the difference between a forward and a defenseman. If Yzerman was a defenseman his point totals would drop substantially. Lidstrom was easily the best red wing from 98-2003. Then again you think coffey is better than bourque and lidstrom, lol. Lidstrom provided far more value defensively to his team than either yzerman or federov did, suggesting that they were better in the deadpuck era is a comical argument.
Im sure you would rather have phil housley on your team over derian hatcher or adam foote.

 

[Rhiessan71]

You clearly dont know the difference between a forward and a defenseman. If Yzerman was a defenseman his point totals would drop substantially. Lidstrom was easily the best red wing from 98-2003. Then again you think coffey is better than bourque and lidstrom, lol.

He did not say Coffey was better, he, like everyone else, realise that Coffey's offense was such that some of his defensive issues could easily be overlooked.
And it was never that Coffey couldn't play defense, it was that he didn't feel he needed to most of the time. Which of course, was a theme in the regular season for those Oiler teams in the 80's.

Coffey was never a liability in International play or in the playoffs and compared to another offense first d-man like Housley he was Rod Langway heh

 

[canucks4ever]

He did not say Coffey was better, he, like everyone else, realise that Coffey's offense was such that some of his defensive issues could easily be overlooked.
And it was never that Coffey couldn't play defense, it was that he didn't feel he needed to most of the time. Which of course, was a theme in the regular season for those Oiler teams in the 80's.

Coffey was never a liability in International play or in the playoffs and compared to another offense first d-man like Housley he was Rod Langway heh

Um no, he has said in the past that coffey is better than both. Do you think yzerman and feds were better than lidstrom from 98-2003?

Coffey was never a liability yet bowman gave him the boot not once, but twice.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Um no, he has said in the past that coffey is better than both. Do you think yzerman and feds were better than lidstrom from 98-2003?

Offensively, Coffey was better than both but after that, no and I couldn't honestly give Coffey the edge overall over either of them.
As far as Lids, Feds and Stevie. I don't think you can blanket all those years together and just pick one of them as the best. All three were the best over the others at some point during that time.

Coffey was never a liability yet bowman gave him the boot not once, but twice.

He still wasn't a liability. Coffey just couldn't play the way Bowman wanted, as in defense first. It just wasn't in his makeup.
There is a difference.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

All-Star selections:

Bourque - 13 first team, 6 second team, 19 total

Lidstrom - 10 1st, 2 2nd, 12 total

People forget that Lidstrom missed all of 2005 because of the lockout. He's certainly in contention to get a 2nd Team AS in 2012.

So, we could be looking at something like 11-3-14 versus 13-6-19....

19 vs 14 AS selections

5 vs 7 Norris

0 vs 1 Conn Smythe

Lidstrom also has 6 top-10 Hart finishes (4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)

Bourque has two Hart Runner-ups, and a few more top-10

I really dont care about which era they played in. They both dominated their position.

 

[toob]

You clearly dont know the difference between a forward and a defenseman. If Yzerman was a defenseman his point totals would drop substantially. Lidstrom was easily the best red wing from 98-2003. Then again you think coffey is better than bourque and lidstrom, lol. Lidstrom provided far more value defensively to his team than either yzerman or federov did, suggesting that they were better in the deadpuck era is a comical argument.
Im sure you would rather have phil housley on your team over derian hatcher or adam foote.

Um no, he has said in the past that coffey is better than both. Do you think yzerman and feds were better than lidstrom from 98-2003?

Coffey was never a liability yet bowman gave him the boot not once, but twice.

sigh... you are the rudest poster on this board and i probly shouldnt even bother indulging you but...

yeah i think Coffey is better than Lidstrom (and Bourque but i admit i didnt really pay much to Bourque's career and was too young to remember the 1st half but i consider Bourque and Lidstrom very close by all ive read)

yeah i know Coffey sucked defensively (im sure you can argue this but simplifying for the sake of argument and relative to Lids it probably is ok to say so) and that playoff game vs Colorado where he own goaled will always be in my mind as descriptive of him fairly or unfairly... but he scored the 2 Detroit goals himself too

the fact is however that Coffey's offensive game sets him apart and yes i do favor an elite offensive game over an elite defensive game because i have seen many a team come together and be taught how to play stifling D under a system but i still havent seen players taught to play the offensive game like Coffey could

he is the best defenseman i have seen and his 95 is the best ssn by a defenseman i have seen

by the way stating that Stevie and Feds were better than Lids in the late 90s and early 00s is far from comical (and it isnt an argument)