Bossy vs. Brett Hull

[Staniowski]

Sure, that's why he led the league in goals FIVE TIMES (as much as Bossy and Hull combined) and had FOUR 70+ goal seasons. You mean there is no way you can NOT justify Gretzky as one of the top THREE best goalscorers ever. I don't care if he had zero "talents as a goalscorer (whatever the hell that means). He scored. An order of magnitude more than anybody else.

Good Gawd...

I thinkthat, during Gretzky's prime, Bossy, Makarov, Krutov, Lemieux, and Hull were better goal-scorers, and the best in hockey. I'd say Makarov was the least of the five, and the only one that would be debatable.

I'm basing my opinion on watching them play.

Gretzky's five goal-scoring titles, for the most part, weren't competing against these players.

Gretzky shared the ice with all of these players, and he never looked like he could score goals as well as them.

I actually really like some of Gretzky's goal-scoring abilities, especially his taking full advantage of defensive weakness; his confidence to walk in and rip slapshots from the slot; and especially his bad-angle shots, which he did better than anybody at the time.

But, still, his goal-scoring talents were more limited than the greatest goal-scorers, and that's the main reason why he had relatively poor longevity as a goal-scorer.

 

[Staniowski]

The only people I would put definitively above Gretzky are Lemieux, Bossy and of course Bobby Hull.

Scoring 92, 87...ect goals in a season somehow isn't good enough for the top 10?

I don't think he's even in the conversation for top-10. His goal-scoring was too era-dependent. In some (weak defensive) eras, he could score a lot; in other eras, he couldn't.

 

[MadLuke]

I doubt it’s any more than a handful of people. 99% of the hockey world never puts him in the top 10

It is probably from people that can end up having 18-25 different players they will have called top 10 at some point, more of an expression than an actual list.

 

[Gorskyontario]

I don't think he's even in the conversation for top-10. His goal-scoring was too era-dependent. In some (weak defensive) eras, he could score a lot; in other eras, he couldn't.

Sorry, I know I haven't said this in a while. This makes less than zero sense.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Sorry, I know I haven't said this in a while. This makes less than zero sense.

It's hard to argue with you if you don't back it up with supporting arguments.

Whether you agree with them or not, @Staniowski at least said why they feel that way. Responding with an insult (and yes, without supporting evidence, what you wrote is an insult) is a disservice to the forum.

 

[MadLuke]

Controversial but not necessarily crazy at all, the reason are well said and obviously make sense so they can be debated, if we exclude the lower game played a la Bure, Bossy, if we just look at the people that scored a giant amount of goals, Soviets best goalscorer are not there:

Maurice Richard.......... 0.99
Alex Ovechkin............ 0.96
Mario Lemieux............ 0.90
Bobby Hull............... 0.88
Brett Hull............... 0.77
Gordie Howe.............. 0.76
Jean Beliveau............ 0.73
Phil Esposito............ 0.71
Teemu Selanne............ 0.69
Wayne Gretzky............ 0.68
Jaromir Jagr............. 0.66
Joe Sakic................ 0.63
Jarome Iginla............ 0.62
Luc Robitaille........... 0.61
Mats Sundin.............. 0.61
Brendan Shanahan......... 0.60
Marcel Dionne............ 0.60
Steve Yzerman............ 0.57
Patrick Marleau.......... 0.49
Mark Messier............. 0.48

 

[Sentinel]

I thinkthat, during Gretzky's prime, Bossy, Makarov, Krutov, Lemieux, and Hull were better goal-scorers, and the best in hockey. I'd say Makarov was the least of the five, and the only one that would be debatable.

I'm basing my opinion on watching them play.

Gretzky's five goal-scoring titles, for the most part, weren't competing against these players.

Gretzky shared the ice with all of these players, and he never looked like he could score goals as well as them.

And I am basing it on facts. Nobody else ever scored 90 goals and nobody ever scored 70 goals four times. I don’t care if Gretzky had the weakest shot (he didn't) or was a terrible skater (he wasn't), or whatever. He did what he did. And he sure AF did it better than Bossy, year after year. I mean: what part of "better in 6 of 8" is not clear to you?

There is no doubt in my mind that if Gretzky wanted to transfer some of his 120+ assists to the "G" column, he would have crushed it again and again. But it doesn't matter: he did what he did and Bossy didn't do what Gretzky did.

Krutov and Makarov are hard to gauge but they never came close to leading NHL in goals. I rank Makarov in the Top20 because of his insane 9 straight point leads in the Soviet Elite League and being second to Gretzky in every international tournament. But I wouldn't put him or Krutov in the top 10 for goals. There is simply no evidence of that.

 

[Sentinel]

Controversial but not necessarily crazy at all, the reason are well said and obviously make sense so they can be debated, if we exclude the lower game played a la Bure, Bossy, if we just look at the people that scored a giant amount of goals, Soviets best goalscorer are not there:

Maurice Richard.......... 0.99
Alex Ovechkin............ 0.96
Mario Lemieux............ 0.90
Bobby Hull............... 0.88
Brett Hull............... 0.77
Gordie Howe.............. 0.76
Jean Beliveau............ 0.73
Phil Esposito............ 0.71
Teemu Selanne............ 0.69
Wayne Gretzky............ 0.68
Jaromir Jagr............. 0.66
Joe Sakic................ 0.63
Jarome Iginla............ 0.62
Luc Robitaille........... 0.61
Mats Sundin.............. 0.61
Brendan Shanahan......... 0.60
Marcel Dionne............ 0.60
Steve Yzerman............ 0.57
Patrick Marleau.......... 0.49
Mark Messier............. 0.48

Sorry, what is this a table of?

 

[MadLuke]

Sorry, what is this a table of?

Adjusted (using average elite Canadian goalscorer every season) goal per game during a player career.

 

[Staniowski]

And I am basing it on facts. Nobody else ever scored 90 goals and nobody ever scored 70 goals four times. I don’t care if Gretzky had the weakest shot (he didn't) or was a terrible skater (he wasn't), or whatever. He did what he did. And he sure AF did it better than Bossy, year after year. I mean: what part of "better in 6 of 8" is not clear to you?

There is no doubt in my mind that if Gretzky wanted to transfer some of his 120+ assists to the "G" column, he would have crushed it again and again. But it doesn't matter: he did what he did and Bossy didn't do what Gretzky did.

Krutov and Makarov are hard to gauge but they never came close to leading NHL in goals. I rank Makarov in the Top20 because of his insane 9 straight point leads in the Soviet Elite League and being second to Gretzky in every international tournament. But I wouldn't put him or Krutov in the top 10 for goals. There is simply no evidence of that.

I don't think I would say Makarov is one of the 10 best goal-scorers ever either, though he's probably fairly close. But Krutov, yes, definitely. He was the best goal-scorer of all the Soviet era players.

The argument for Gretzky seems to be that he scored a big bunch of goals for a few years, and he could've continued scoring all those goals if he wanted to, but he didn't want to.

I don't buy this argument because, first of all, it doesn't make any sense. Also, I watched Gretzky's career and it's not what happened. His goal-scoring declined a lot because he wasn't able to score goals anymore. And if you rewind to his earlier years when he was scoring all those goals, even then he couldn't do it against good opposition.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I guess, at this point, what do the people that just recite "facts" and "stats" think they're accomplishing? It's not that the people evaluating the on-ice product can't read too haha

"Ohhhhhh...92?!?! I thought you said '4'...my mistake, he is the best..."

 

[Sentinel]

The argument for Gretzky seems to be that he scored a big bunch of goals for a few years, and he could've continued scoring all those goals if he wanted to, but he didn't want to.

He DID score a bunch of goals. More than ANYBODY.

I don't buy this argument because, first of all, it doesn't make any sense. Also, I watched Gretzky's career and it's not what happened. His goal-scoring declined a lot because he wasn't able to score goals anymore. And if you rewind to his earlier years when he was scoring all those goals, even then he couldn't do it against good opposition.

He did it against Mike Bossy. 6 OF 8.

 

[MadLuke]

And if you rewind to his earlier years when he was scoring all those goals, even then he couldn't do it against good opposition.

If we look at the 82-85 Gretzky, even if we limit good opposition to the
Islanders, Flyers, Bruins, Sabres and Canadians (they were the 5 other best teams and the 5 best defense in the league).

In the regular season during those 4 peak seasons he played 57 games against them.

215 shots, 41 goals, 117pts in 57 games. That ~57-58 goals per 80 games pace. (he was scoring at a 164 pts by 80 games pace against the best teams of that era that had not terrible goals against numbers if they were modern nhl teams, not good, but not the worst)

In the playoff he went 11 goals in 14 games, 22 points., ~63 goals pace.

~20% shooting in both case, so it's usual self in that regard, seem to be about those teams able to limit his shoots, not him being a cold streak or unlucky.

You would expect everyone scoring to go down against those and that .73 goals per games against the best teams that still really close to Bossy against everyone scoring and better than everyone else from 82 to 85.

 

[The Panther]

Controversial but not necessarily crazy at all, the reason are well said and obviously make sense so they can be debated, if we exclude the lower game played a la Bure, Bossy, if we just look at the people that scored a giant amount of goals, Soviets best goalscorer are not there:

Maurice Richard.......... 0.99
Alex Ovechkin............ 0.96
Mario Lemieux............ 0.90
Bobby Hull............... 0.88
Brett Hull............... 0.77
Gordie Howe.............. 0.76
Jean Beliveau............ 0.73
Phil Esposito............ 0.71
Teemu Selanne............ 0.69
Wayne Gretzky............ 0.68
Jaromir Jagr............. 0.66
Joe Sakic................ 0.63
Jarome Iginla............ 0.62
Luc Robitaille........... 0.61
Mats Sundin.............. 0.61
Brendan Shanahan......... 0.60
Marcel Dionne............ 0.60
Steve Yzerman............ 0.57
Patrick Marleau.......... 0.49
Mark Messier............. 0.48

This is an interesting table. I realize you're excluding Bure and those with short careers, but since I'm not really interested in "career" comparisons (I'm more into consistent primes), I'd like to see a table like this but using each player's prime. Of course, each player's primes are different in length, but as long as the respective primes are at least, say, six or seven years, that's how I would personally rank the players as goal scorers mainly (with some consideration of longevity). In Gretzky's case, his prime would be 1979-80 through 1990-91. Jagr's prime would maybe be 1993-94 to 2005-06; Iginla's 2000-01 to 2010-11, etc.

To me, that would be a more accurate representation of best goal scorers, but I realize some people like to just look at a whole career.

 

[MadLuke]

Yes some form of prime (say 6 best seasons or 6 best consecutive season) would be more interesting in some ways, that mores of a scoring elite longevity type of list, a custom prime vs prime using judgment like you describe make them hard, not many players have Gretzky clear 1991 cut off line. Ovechkin would be a bit of a strange one.

 

[The Panther]

But Krutov, yes, definitely. He was the best goal-scorer of all the Soviet era players.

Since your whole argument against Gretzky as a goal scorer is about strength of competition, how strong was the consistent competition Krutov faced during these years? I guess it was mainly 2nd-tier international teams and college players at the Olympics...?

His goal-scoring declined a lot because he wasn't able to score goals anymore.

He scored fewer goals (as everyone does as they get older). From 1987-88 through 1990-91, Gretzky was 8th in NHL goals scored, and he was scoring at the pace of 48 goals per 80 games -- the same goals pace he was scoring at in 1980, 1981, and 1986.

Gretzky's goals-per-game during these four seasons was higher than Mike Gartner, Stephane Richer, Rick Tocchet, etc., and it was about the same as Cam Neely. And his shooting percentage was higher than Steve Yzerman, Brett Hull, Pat Lafontaine, Joe Sakic, etc. Are you also going to argue that all of those guys "weren't able to score goals anymore" from 1987-88 to 1990-91, as you're doing for Gretzky?

Your argument here is utterly ridiculous.

And if you rewind to his earlier years when he was scoring all those goals, even then he couldn't do it against good opposition.

Yeah... no.

1981-82 to 1986-87 vs. Montreal
-- 13 goals in 18 games (58-goal pace)
1979-80 to 1987-88 vs. NY Islanders
-- 19 goals in 26 games (58-goal pace)
1982-83 to 1986-87 vs. Washington
-- 11 goals in 14 games (63-goal pace)
1979-80 to 1986-87 vs. Philadelphia
-- 26 goals in 25 games (83-goal pace)
1981-82 to 1985-86 vs. Quebec
-- 15 goals in 15 games (80-goal pace)
1981-82 to 1984-85 vs. Buffalo
-- 9 goals in 12 games (60-goal pace)
1981-82 to 1987-88 vs. Boston
-- 11 goals in 19 games (46-goal pace)
1983-84 to 1987-88 vs. Calgary
-- 27 goals in 38 games (57-goal pace)

Note that I haven't included playoffs (when it's harder to score) here. If we do, Gretzky's pace vs. the Islanders declines to 53 goals, and vs. Philly (all in the Finals, where he put up 9 goals in 12 games) "declines" to 76 goals, while his pace vs. Boston increases to 47 goals and his pace vs. Calgary is basically the same.

I swear, some of the stuff I read on here....

 

[MadLuke]

The starting year and last year changing all the time look a bit suspicious

Would have not found that he was around ~58 goals per 80 games pace around the 82-85 peak against the 5 best defense just before to believe it.

 

[The Panther]

The starting year and last year changing all the time look a bit suspicious

I was generally focusing on the years those particular teams were good. Hence, the NY Isles from 1979-80, Calgary from 1984-85, Boston from 1979-80, etc...

Regardless of how you want to do it, Gretzky scored a lot of goals against good teams.

 

[Greatzsky 99]

Bossy was an absolute legend, his shooting accuracy is almost unmatched.
in the playoffs from 81-83, he scored 51 goals in 55 games,

 

[Sentinel]

Bossy was an absolute legend, his shooting accuracy is almost unmatched.
in the playoffs from 81-83, he scored 51 goals in 55 games,

He is a legend. Just not a Top 7 goalscorer of all time because he never dominated his peers.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Adjusted (using average elite Canadian goalscorer every season) goal per game during a player career.

I'm still kinda interested in the calculation and how it works. Any insight?

 

[Vilica]

I did a deep dive on Bossy's playoffs, and the result that stood out to me most was how power play dependent he was outside of Round 1. In Bossy's career, he was basically 2/3rds EVP to 1/3 PPP, and that ratio basically held in Round 1 [32/14 EVP/PPP]. However, in Rounds 2-4, he had more PPP than EVP in each round, totaling 40 games in R2 [19/22 EVP/PPP ratio], 26 in R3 [18/21 ratio], and 23 in R4 [15/19 ratio]. He was also surprisingly not great in R2, while his G%/P% was more in line with his career averages in both R3 and R4. I'm inclined to basically attribute that to randomness more than anything else, 25 and 40 game samples are still very small.

The other aspect I'm curious about is this claim that Bossy lacked ice-time due to Arbour rolling lines. If you remove his missed games, Bossy's G% was remarkably consistent, and his P% wasn't far behind. 78-79 is the last pre-dynasty year, 79-80 through 82-83 is the dynasty 4-peat, 83-84 is the loss to Edmonton, and the last 3 years were post-dynasty.

Year	G%	P%
77-78	0.179	0.307
78-79	0.193	0.352
79-80	0.193	0.348
80-81	0.194	0.339
81-82	0.166	0.382
82-83	0.205	0.403
83-84	0.162	0.376
84-85	0.177	0.358
85-86	0.187	0.376
86-87	0.172	0.339

Bossy has the exact same G% for 3 straight years, and his P% jumps in the last 2 years of the dynasty. None of that correlates with Arbour rolling lines/reducing ice-time for his best players throughout the dynasty (nor are those numbers out of line with other seasons from top-line, goal-scoring wingers). The Islanders had some huge swings in actual goals scored, dropping 77 between the 79 and 80 seasons (from 358 to 281), and 83 between the 82 and 83 seasons (from 385 to 302). The drop in 80 is mostly explained by Denis Potvin's absence (they scored ~0.5 goals per game more in the 31 he played than the 49 he missed). The drop in 83 doesn't really seem attributable to anything specific beyond 'the team shot bad that year', except for Bossy.

 

[MadLuke]

I'm still kinda interested in the calculation and how it works. Any insight?

The way I did it was the following:

Thread 'Adjusted point - using elite Canadians player scoring'

Nov 29, 2021

With different previous at adjusting players season, the latest attempt has been the following with those goals:

1) Only use the top players in the league to automatically adjust for scoring distribution change over time, if rules change, style of play, power play habit make scoring more frequent for top 6 or bottom 6 looking only at the top players instead of a league wide average like hockey reference should take care of this.

2) Large enough sample size to not have large noise from outlier

3) Has constant level of talent over time has possible.

So the "strength" of a season...

• MadLuke
• Replies: 12
• Forum: The History of Hockey

• 

I took the average Canadian nhl elite scorer, the number change over time, it was calibrated using canadian nhl age male population and to happen to use the top 18 players in 1967 (the last 06 year so around the average first line at that time)

1986-1990 was using the top 32 Canadian in the league and was under that adjusting judged to be the deepest pool of Canadians players.

Trying to take a large amount to remove season to season noise but elite enough to capture how hard it was for people in the best position (ice time wise, PP, assignment) and good at it to score.

Canadian only felt like a way to have a more constant pool of competitor over time when the league opened up versus before, adjusting for Canadian level of competition is impossible, using Canada born nhl age male population being a bad proxy, but the best available.

 

[Gorskyontario]

He is a legend. Just not a Top 7 goalscorer of all time because he never dominated his peers.

Not top 7, top 3.

 

[Crosby2010]

I am fine with Bossy being the better overall player (although, like I said, Hull's Hart has to make up some of that point deficiency). But as far as pure goalscoring goes, I have to put 86, 72, and 71 above 69, 68, and 66, three league leads over two league leads, and 741 over 573.

And that's not even getting to the Top 5 goalscorers of all time

Okay, that's fair. But is Brett as high as Bossy on an individual level with goal scoring? Bossy just simply never stopped scoring and had consistency that is unrivaled. Hull was great too, we know this, but is it possible he was more dependent on a strong centre over Bossy?