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Bossy vs. Brett Hull

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Gorskyontario said:
He did have dominance over his peers in terms of playoff scoring and goals per game.
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No, he didn't. His GPG is lower than Gretzky's and Lemieux's at his age.

Frank Cannon PI said:
Who's saying this in 2025? Maybe I missed those posts in this thread, but who's saying this in this debate?

I think Hull vs Bossy is a great debate BTW. I don't like how I'm reacting in this thread, but if you're going to create one, why are you so readily mocking, or egging on like you are?
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I see it ON FB ALL THE TIME. Literally, ALL THE TIME. You can never mention Bossy without someone posting "GOAT goalscorer!" right below.

You are blaming me for your reactions? There is a word for that, you know.
 
Sentinel said:
No, he didn't. His GPG is lower than Gretzky's and Lemieux's at his age.


I see it ON FB ALL THE TIME. Literally, ALL THE TIME. You can never mention Bossy without someone posting "GOAT goalscorer!" right below.

You are blaming me for your reactions? There is a word for that, you know.
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I'm responsible for my own reactions.
 
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Sentinel said:
No, he didn't. His GPG is lower than Gretzky's and Lemieux's at his age.
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The pre dynasty, and even dynasty oilers had much less depth than the islanders. Gretzky's line and Messiers line saw much more ice time than Trottier/Bossy. Which in some ways makes the Oilers success more impressive.

Someone broke down the islanders ice time on this forum once, and found Bossy was only getting like 18 minutes a night. Those islanders teams were very deep and consistently rolled 4 lines.

You seem to have some bias against Mike Bossy.
 
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Gorskyontario said:
The pre dynasty, and even dynasty oilers had much less depth than the islanders. Gretzky's line and Messiers line saw much more ice time than Trottier/Bossy. Which in some ways makes the Oilers success more impressive.

Someone broke down the islanders ice time on this forum once, and found Bossy was only getting like 18 minutes a night. Those islanders teams were very deep and consistently rolled 4 lines.

You seem to have some bias against Mike Bossy.
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If this isn't a strawman argument, I don't know what is.
 
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tabness said:
I've watched a few games yes of course, I don't like to comment much on players I haven't at least seen a little of.

So how much of Brett Hull's peak did you watch? Recently? If you want some games of what I'm on talking about I can put up the Wings Blues series 1991
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Okay, do that. Before even watching, I will give you physicality in dishing it out, but he would go anywhere, take any hit. I will get back to you on the shots, he had a few good ones. Bossy never really had a drop in his production. At the end, sometimes playing only a few shifts, he was on pace for 48 goals and 95 points in 63 games(80 game season). Who knows whether he would have played any longer?
 
Gorskyontario said:
www.quanthockey.com

NHL All-Time Goals per Game Leaders

NHL players who hold the all-time record for the most goals per game in NHL. All-time goals per game leaders for NHL players.
www.quanthockey.com www.quanthockey.com
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I know Bossy is #1, and you know he would not be #1 had Gretzky and Lemieux retired at the same age.

You just keep throwing random words and trivia at me. I believe we are done here.
 
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Mr. Bossy played only 752 games (in regular season). Just for fun, here's how others were scoring goals up to exactly that many career games:

0.831 Gretzky
0.824 Lemieux
0.762 Bossy
0.711 Brett Hull
0.629 Kurri
0.624 Ovechkin
(0.623 Bure -- in 702 career games)
0.601 Esposito
0.589 Lafleur
0.588 Yzerman
0.585 Goulet
0.581 Richard
0.578 Robitaille
0.565 Selänne
0.564 Lafontaine
0.560 Bobby Hull
0.543 Ciccarelli
0.528 Stamkos
(0.511 McDavid -- in 701 career games)
0.504 Mogilny
0.499 Gartner
0.497 Howe
0.493 Draisaitl
0.493 Shutt
0.489 Crosby
0.482 Beliveau
0.465 Sakic
 
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Sentinel said:
I know Bossy is #1, and you know he would not be #1 had Gretzky and Lemieux retired at the same age.

You just keep throwing random words and trivia at me. I believe we are done here.
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Well, like I said I think Lemieux is equal or greater to Bossy.


Gretzky was also a great goal scorer, I probably wouldn't have him lower than 4th or 5th. His numbers being so far ahead of Bossy need to be given context of their ice time and defensive responsibilities however.
 
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Gorskyontario said:
Well, like I said I think Lemieux is equal or greater to Bossy.


Gretzky was also a great goal scorer, I probably wouldn't have him lower than 4th or 5th. His numbers being so far ahead of Bossy need to be given context of their ice time and defensive responsibilities however.
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No, they don't. Because Gretzky's "responsibilities" also included giving more assists than the rest of the world had points.
"Not lower than 5th"?? How awfully generous of ya!
Like I said: I believe we are done here.
 
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JackFr said:
Not really related to the specifics of Hull vs. Bossy, but illustrative of the impact of scoring eras, is that if you adjust Bossy's numbers to the hypothetical of him starting his career in 1994-95 instead of 1977-78 he hits 50 goals one time.

1994-95 53 -> 48
1995-96 69 -> 62
1996-97 51 -> 42
1997-98 68 -> 47
1998-99 64 -> 42
1999-00 60 -> 43
2000-01 51 -> 36
2001-02 58 -> 39
2002-03 61 -> 41
2003-04 38 -> 27

This kind of thing is why younger fans (millennial and younger) just aren't going to share the Bossy worship. Raw numbers from the 1980s just aren't going to hold as much weight to fans who came up in depressed scoring environments where even all time greats struggled to crack 50
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Adjustments based on average scoring are particularly hard on this era and likely especially in a case like Bossy where the context people have given in this thread isn’t captured.
 
Gorskyontario said:
Well, like I said I think Lemieux is equal or greater to Bossy.


Gretzky was also a great goal scorer, I probably wouldn't have him lower than 4th or 5th. His numbers being so far ahead of Bossy need to be given context of their ice time and defensive responsibilities however.
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There were at least four or five better goal-scorers than Gretzky just during Gretzky's prime. If we include during his whole career, several more than that.

Unless you're just using total goals scored as your basis, there's no way you can justify Gretzky as one of the 10-best goal-scorers ever. He didn't have enough talents as a goal-scorer.
 
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Bossy and Tonelli were the second-to-last pieces of the Islander dynasty. Bossy, especially, as he provided the goal-scoring that they didn't otherwise have.

But the final piece was the crucial depth that came in the '80 season...they added half their dynasty defensemen - Morrow, Langevin, and Lane, as well as Duane Sutter, who was especially important in the 2nd-half of the dynasty, and most especially Butch Goring, who was a star and brought a whole new dimension to the team.

As good as Potvin, Trottier, Bossy, Tonelli, etc. were, they likely don't win any Cups without Goring, Morrow, Langevin, and the Sutter brothers, who all came along in the '80s.
 
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The Panther said:
Mr. Bossy played only 752 games (in regular season). Just for fun, here's how others were scoring goals up to exactly that many career games:

0.831 Gretzky
0.824 Lemieux
0.762 Bossy
0.711 Brett Hull
0.629 Kurri
0.624 Ovechkin
(0.623 Bure -- in 702 career games)
0.601 Esposito
0.589 Lafleur
0.588 Yzerman
0.585 Goulet
0.581 Richard
0.578 Robitaille
0.565 Selänne
0.564 Lafontaine
0.560 Bobby Hull
0.543 Ciccarelli
0.528 Stamkos
(0.511 McDavid -- in 701 career games)
0.504 Mogilny
0.499 Gartner
0.497 Howe
0.493 Draisaitl
0.493 Shutt
0.489 Crosby
0.482 Beliveau
0.465 Sakic
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Adjust for era, then ice time, I wonder what we get.
 
Staniowski said:
Unless you're just using total goals scored as your basis, there's no way you can justify Gretzky as one of the 10-best goal-scorers ever. He didn't have enough talents as a goal-scorer.
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The only people I would put definitively above Gretzky are Lemieux, Bossy and of course Bobby Hull.

Scoring 92, 87...ect goals in a season somehow isn't good enough for the top 10?
 
I think Bossy was more than a one-trick pony though. Hull is a great player, an all-time great goal scorer and a clutch one to boot. He had that shot, he had the one-timer, the timing, getting into open space, etc. He did hit his best numbers with Oates, but he is still a 50 goal guy without him. He had a natural knack for scoring goals. And even if he wasn't great at anything else, he was so good at scoring that you had to respect it.

That being said Bossy was even more of a clutch scorer. 17 goals three times in a row in the playoffs. Unreal. 57 goals a season on average. Plus I think Bossy carried the play more. Hull wasn't the type that would deke you out of your jock so much. He wasn't the type to carry the puck as much and he definitely didn't play much defense. You have to go with Bossy here.

Points:
Bossy - 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6
Hull - 2, 4, 5

That is proof in the pudding isn't it? Wasn't Bossy the better player you think?
 
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Video Nasty said:
The growing disrespect of Mike Bossy continues…
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Quite the opposite. The growing overrating of Bossy continues. He is literally THE most overrated historic player in all of Facebook groups that I am a part of. People don't just call him "The greatest goalscorer of all time". They call him "one of the Top 10 players in history."
 
Crosby2010 said:
I think Bossy was more than a one-trick pony though. Hull is a great player, an all-time great goal scorer and a clutch one to boot. He had that shot, he had the one-timer, the timing, getting into open space, etc. He did hit his best numbers with Oates, but he is still a 50 goal guy without him. He had a natural knack for scoring goals. And even if he wasn't great at anything else, he was so good at scoring that you had to respect it.

That being said Bossy was even more of a clutch scorer. 17 goals three times in a row in the playoffs. Unreal. 57 goals a season on average. Plus I think Bossy carried the play more. Hull wasn't the type that would deke you out of your jock so much. He wasn't the type to carry the puck as much and he definitely didn't play much defense. You have to go with Bossy here.

Points:
Bossy - 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6
Hull - 2, 4, 5

That is proof in the pudding isn't it? Wasn't Bossy the better player you think?
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I am fine with Bossy being the better overall player (although, like I said, Hull's Hart has to make up some of that point deficiency). But as far as pure goalscoring goes, I have to put 86, 72, and 71 above 69, 68, and 66, three league leads over two league leads, and 741 over 573.

And that's not even getting to the Top 5 goalscorers of all time :D
 
Staniowski said:
There were at least four or five better goal-scorers than Gretzky just during Gretzky's prime. If we include during his whole career, several more than that.

Unless you're just using total goals scored as your basis, there's no way you can justify Gretzky as one of the 10-best goal-scorers ever. He didn't have enough talents as a goal-scorer.
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Sure, that's why he led the league in goals FIVE TIMES (as much as Bossy and Hull combined) and had FOUR 70+ goal seasons. You mean there is no way you can NOT justify Gretzky as one of the top THREE best goalscorers ever. I don't care if he had zero "talents as a goalscorer (whatever the hell that means). He scored. An order of magnitude more than anybody else.

Good Gawd...
 
Sentinel said:
They call him "one of the Top 10 players in history."
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I doubt it’s any more than a handful of people. 99% of the hockey world never puts him in the top 10. I’ve rarely seen someone include him in the group of 8-12 players who typically comprise the final 6 spots in the to 10.
 
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