HF Habs: Bobby Mac Final 2024 Draft Ranking List - Tuesday 2024-06-25 - TSN5 - 11:00am EDT

[SannywithoutCompy]

Catton's age 17/18 season was this season (Jan birthdate). Iggy's age 17 season was this season (Aug Birthdate). There is a 8 month age difference. Iginla was 1.5 months away from being in next years draft bud. You can't ignore these things or try to spin it. These are facts.

Yeah, same time internationally at the U17's but one was more mature in age than the other and probably got more usage/ice time. Is there anywhere we can see what their ice time was?

Catton's U18's (22/23):
* 4 pts with 1 goal in 7 games

Iggy's U18's (23/24):
* 13 pts with 6 goals in 7 games.

This is not about who they are today, this is about who they are from age 20+. I'd also value the U18's over the U17's.

At the end of the day, these two are close. This debate or conversation was about someone saying Catton has Demidov's skill. If that is true, so does Iggy.

Look, I prefer Iggy to Catton by a hair, but using U18 numbers for someone in their draft year vs someone else in their D-1 doesn't make any sense.

 

[LaP]

Demidov #2 dammit, we'll have to hope for Lindstrom then. Otherwise I think I'd lean D (Levs if not taken, Dickinson, Buium)

Not sure we can pass on Lindstrom. I mean Lindstrom and Slaf could become something very special in a few years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Look, I prefer Iggy to Catton by a hair, but using U18 numbers for someone in their draft year vs someone else in their D-1 doesn't make any sense.

I Disagree. Iggy's U18's were more impressive vs Catton. Age/maturity is a real thing and it applies to these kids from 16-20 by a huge factor. The amount of growth pre draft and post draft is enormous at the age range.

Iggy is a hot trending player and one of the youngest. This is my opinion, but Iggy is more built for the NHL and he's going to be a stronger player. That will stand up well when both these kids turn pro.

Iggy is closer to Demidov than Catton is IMO. But most have these two close.... can't argue with that too much. However, if someone bumps Catton to Demidov level and blocks Iggy, they are reaching. If someone tells me I am reaching when I have Iggy close to Demidov, I won't argue too much with it because I do think it's opinion based and also a reach

Not sure we can pass on Lindstrom. I mean Lindstrom and Slaf could become something very special in a few years.

What happens if Lindstrom back issues become chronic? That would be a huge miss for our 5th OA pick. We already wasted the KK 3rd OA pick. Two misses?

It's not a easy decision. Someone is going to look like a genius or a dummy.

 

[LaP]

Yup. Even a stay at home dman increases forwards offensive production if he makes a good first pass after winning puck battles. Strong D often dictate a game.

Stay at home d manking good first pass are extremely rare.

What happens if Lindstrom back issues become chronic? That would be a huge miss for our 5th OA pick. We already wasted the KK 3rd OA pick. Two misses?

It's not a easy decision. Someone is going to look like a genius or a dummy.

KH did not draft KK and KK was a miss because he's bad and was not properly scouted not because he is injured all the time. If the only concern with Lindstrom is an injury we should draft him. Career ending injuries for players under the age of 28 are quite rare. It happens but not often.

 

[Habs Halifax]

KH did not draft KK and KK was a miss because he's bad and was not properly scouted not because he is injured all the time. If the only concern with Lindstrom is an injury we should draft him. Career ending injuries for players under the age of 28 are quite rare. It happens but not often.

Doesn't matter who drafted KK. It's still a miss for our organization. I don't like playing the Bergevin vs Hughes debates. Hughes has better long term vision but he was left with some good parts and some of these parts are our among our best. Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Xhekaj, Primeau, Roy. Our Rebuild is not just about Hughes vs Bergevin. It's about what Hughes inherited and how he has managed the rebuild better.

Career ending injuries for players under 28 is rare yes. But what about a major injury pre draft? Latest guy I can think about is N Patrick. Remember all the talk about him being healthy or not?

It's a risky pick. Like I said, you could be a genius or a dummy. It can go two ways

 

[LaP]

Where was Clayton Keller on Bob’s list? Where was Pierre Luc Dubois? Point being, these guys don’t get it right everytime. Picking a Lindstrom over a Catton would be very similar to passing on Keller for Pierre Luc Dubois.

Bob’s lists aren’t perfect and in no way does this prove that Catton has less talent than anybody.

You're acting like Keller is a bone fide super elite +++ player. The guy will turn 26 in july and has only two 30 goals seasons and two 70-80 points seasons and he is minus 3 billions in career. So far he has not been a "player you build around". Good player but not a top 5 overall quality pick imo. The 3rd overall that year should have been Matthew Tkachuk.

 

[BJCOLLINS]

They may not, but a herniated disk tends to spill out, like really a disc-shaped elastic container (annulus fibrosis) of thick molasses (nucleus pulposus), and while it may stabilize and heal to a significant degree, the tear in it can (more) easily reinjure, since it does not have the integrity of the uninjured disc (which is why Eichel's surgeons threw in the towel and gave him a synthetic one). In a contact sport, that gradual degradation of the disc has a higher probability of happening again than it would in a pristine disc, so that the hole in the elastic container can reopen again, spilling thick molasses onto that sciatic nerve.
Lumbar Disc HerniationView attachment 887499

Thanks for this, very interesting.

We are also talking about a very healthy young man not a 35 year old dock worker. His healing & recovery timeline is at its strongest.

Let’s not forget that Lindstrom has stated in the Masters interview he & his medical team have given him the okay. So was he being dishonest? I don’t think so. I like a number of players at #5, Lindstrom is one.

 

[Tyson]

Thanks for this, very interesting.

We are also talking about a very healthy young man not a 35 year old dock worker. His healing & recovery timeline is at its strongest.

Let’s not forget that Lindstrom has stated in the Masters interview he & his medical team have given him the okay. So was he being dishonest? I don’t think so. I like a number of players at #5, Lindstrom is one.

When I think of careers cut short because of back issues I think of Mike Bossy and Eric Dazé. Be cautious Habs management

 

[417]

Well, it is the 5th OA pick in a deep draft. If we end up taking a guy who has back issues that become chronic in the future, it's a major miss for the organization. All the medical reports will show you is how it looks today. Predicting what happens in the future is guess work. And then you look at his style of play and how the NHL is very demanding, you do wonder.

Look into the N Patrick situation. I recall many fans/media trying to justify him being healthy. Not saying it turns into that but it's not something that we can brush under the rug.

Anyone we pick and we miss on is a major miss for the organization.

Again, this is all about due diligence, if the medicals check out and he's your guy, you pick him.

I remember the Nolan Patrick issue, but do they have the same exact issue? Is there capacity to recover the same?

There's way too much correlation going on.

 

[The Great Weal]

You're acting like Keller is a bone fide super elite +++ player. The guy will turn 26 in july and has only two 30 goals seasons and two 70-80 points seasons and he is minus 3 billions in career. So far he has not been a "player you build around". Good player but not a top 5 overall quality pick imo. The 3rd overall that year should have been Matthew Tkachuk.

Keller is 39th in forward scoring since being in the league, and he's done that playing with nobodies. Keller is a career -61 while Suzuki is a -76, so if Keller is a minus 3 billion according to you, does that make Suzuki a minus 5 billion?

Tkachuk's been riding the coattails of elite linemates throughout his whole career so he shouldn't be someone you build around either according to your definition. The Flames built around Gaudreau as their top forward and that didn't work out, the Panthers have built around Barkov, and adding good pieces like Tkachuk helped them reach new levels, but Barkov is the one you build around.

We'd be lucky to pick a forward at 5th OA who becomes as good as Keller. Hell, I'd trade the pick right now to get current Keller.

 

[BJCOLLINS]

When I think of careers cut short because of back issues I think of Mike Bossy and Eric Dazé. Be cautious Habs management

I’d gladly take 10 years of Bossy #’s, lol. Big guys like him & LeClair have to manage back pain, no doubt

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I Disagree. Iggy's U18's were more impressive vs Catton. Age/maturity is a real thing and it applies to these kids from 16-20 by a huge factor. The amount of growth pre draft and post draft is enormous at the age range.

Iggy is a hot trending player and one of the youngest. This is my opinion, but Iggy is more built for the NHL and he's going to be a stronger player. That will stand up well when both these kids turn pro.

Iggy is closer to Demidov than Catton is IMO. But most have these two close.... can't argue with that too much. However, if someone bumps Catton to Demidov level and blocks Iggy, they are reaching. If someone tells me I am reaching when I have Iggy close to Demidov, I won't argue too much with it because I do think it's opinion based and also a reach



What happens if Lindstrom back issues become chronic? That would be a huge miss for our 5th OA pick. We already wasted the KK 3rd OA pick. Two misses?

It's not an easy decision. Someone is going to look like a genius or a dummy.

Catton is a better player with more talent and will have a better career imo. I like Iggy. I wouldn’t mind taking him with a second first if we can move up that high, but at 5, i dunno if I could pull the trigger.

You're acting like Keller is a bone fide super elite +++ player. The guy will turn 26 in july and has only two 30 goals seasons and two 70-80 points seasons and he is minus 3 billions in career. So far he has not been a "player you build around". Good player but not a top 5 overall quality pick imo. The 3rd overall that year should have been Matthew Tkachuk.

He’s easily a top 5 pick in almost every draft ever held. I acted like he was a better pick than PLD. What Keller has done with near zero help is incredible. If you get a Keller at 5 you’ve done fantastic.

You are way off base.

 

[417]

They may not, but a herniated disk tends to spill out, like really a disc-shaped elastic container (annulus fibrosis) of thick molasses (nucleus pulposus), and while it may stabilize and heal to a significant degree, the tear in it can (more) easily reinjure, since it does not have the integrity of the uninjured disc (which is why Eichel's surgeons threw in the towel and gave him a synthetic one). In a contact sport, that gradual degradation of the disc has a higher probability of happening again than it would in a pristine disc, so that the hole in the elastic container can reopen again, spilling thick molasses onto that sciatic nerve.
Lumbar Disc HerniationView attachment 887499

You had me until the bolded man .

No seriously though, thanks for the insight, really hope it's nothing too serious because that's my pick if I had my choices but obviously, if it's something that can affect him like Nolan Patrick, my opinion will change.

 

[JoelWarlord]

I remember the Nolan Patrick issue, but do they have the same exact issue? Is there capacity to recover the same?

It's sorta beside the point anyway as the primary health issue for Nolan Patrick has been concussions.

 

[bopeep]

Anyone we pick and we miss on is a major miss for the organization.

Again, this is all about due diligence, if the medicals check out and he's your guy, you pick him.

I remember the Nolan Patrick issue, but do they have the same exact issue? Is there capacity to recover the same?

There's way too much correlation going on.

Cody Hodgson was another 1st rounder with high expectations and then he suffered the back injury while training and was never the same.

 

[WatchfulElm]

If both Demidov and Lindstrom are taken at #5, our 2 options are to draft yet another D, or try to trade down and grab Iginla a few spots later. It’s hard to argue against this class of D. I think Reinbacher would be ranked no higher than #10-12 on this draft. If we draft a Silayev, Buium, Dickinson or Parekh, we'll have to find a way to trade some of our your D's for forwards. But these picks would have more value than any forward left at that point.

 

[Miller Time]

TopX picks are generally the best prospects in that year's cohort. The Habs have not drafted a known playmaker with a top15 pick in a long time. When's the last one? Kotkaniemi was a generalist. Galchenyuk in 2012? It's 2024.

Sure. Fail to see why you choose to single out a highly subjective top "playmaker" definition...

Slaf & Caufield were top forward prospects, both of whom showed this past season high end playmaking impact.

Newhook, Dach & Suzuki were trade vs draft additions... Their presence directly impacted draft day decisions, as with any franchise

 

[Schooner Guy]

It's sorta beside the point anyway as the primary health issue for Nolan Patrick has been concussions.

Back, concussions and horrible work ethic.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Back, concussions and horrible work ethic.

Hard to have much of a work ethic when you're suffering from debilitating TBIs.

 

[Schooner Guy]

Hard to have much of a work ethic when you're suffering from debilitating TBIs.

It was a knock on him long before he was drafted.

 

[billy piton]

You can’t un-herniate a disk. Disks cannot heal. So we do know.

interesting article about hockey players with herniated disc problems.

The Lumbar Disc Herniation & Hockey Athletes - Remi Sovran

I was once a hockey player. I played the game for over a decade and many of those years at a competitive level. To this day, I still play, but only at a recreational level. I gave up chasing the dream many years ago to pursue an education in Exercise Science. Shortly after giving up playing

www.remisovran.com

as much as i'd love to have that kind of player, after reading that, lindstrom is dnd at 5 for me.

 

[417]

You can’t un-herniate a disk. Disks cannot heal. So we do know.

No you can't in-herniate a disc, but it doesn't mean that having one ends your career, in contact sports, herniated discs are actually fairly common from what I understand.

Its naïve to think that there aren’t a bunch of players currently playing (and performing) with some type of disc issue.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Anyone we pick and we miss on is a major miss for the organization.

Again, this is all about due diligence, if the medicals check out and he's your guy, you pick him.

I remember the Nolan Patrick issue, but do they have the same exact issue? Is there capacity to recover the same?

There's way too much correlation going on.

Nolan Patrick proceeded to get a bunch of separate injuries so not sure what the correlation is there

 

[The Last Red]

No you can't in-herniate a disc, but it doesn't mean that having one ends your career, in contact sports, herniated discs are actually fairly common from what I understand.

Its naïve to think that there aren’t a bunch of players currently playing (and performing) with some type of disc issue.

Patrice Bergeron had one while playing for the Bruins. Obviously it’s not ideal but it’s also not insurmountable. But I’m fine with taking Buium at 5.

 

[Canadienna]

interesting article about hockey players with herniated disc problems.

The Lumbar Disc Herniation & Hockey Athletes - Remi Sovran

I was once a hockey player. I played the game for over a decade and many of those years at a competitive level. To this day, I still play, but only at a recreational level. I gave up chasing the dream many years ago to pursue an education in Exercise Science. Shortly after giving up playing

www.remisovran.com

as much as i'd love to have that kind of player, after reading that, lindstrom is dnd at 5 for me.

Interesting article thanks for sharing and I share your concerns.

I think that article does a good job of establishing the risks without drifting into crystal ball territory.