Bobby Hull

[PrimumHockeyist]

He would of passed Gordie Howe, to become #1 at that time.

It is mildly unsettling, to think how this likely outcome rather normalizes Howe's legacy. He becomes far less mythic, from an early 90s pov where his goals record had been passed at least one decade earlier.

 

[carjackmalone]

If Bobby Hull doesn’t go to the WHA is there a WHA?

 

[The Panther]

It is mildly unsettling, to think how this likely outcome rather normalizes Howe's legacy. He becomes far less mythic, from an early 90s pov where his goals record had been passed at least one decade earlier.

I dunno. He'd still have been the assists and points leader from 1963 or whatever until Gretzky in 1987 and 1989, respectively.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

I dunno. He'd still have been the assists and points leader from 1963 or whatever until Gretzky in 1987 and 1989, respectively.

It would still be a great legacy, for sure, but with Hull cutting in the middle of goals record I do think some serious luster overall, at least from the pov I grew up in, in the Big Two era.

 

[Crosby2010]

Maybe he doesn't reach 1980. He'd be 41 by season's end. Perhaps the smoother years in the WHA with a more wide open game gave him more years than being in the NHL. I'd say at best he is flirting with 800 goals. He had 50 before he left in 1972. He ended up with 610 NHL goals and 303 WHA goals. That's 913 overall, 19 more than Gretzky. I don't think it is wrong to suggest he gained 100 extra goals in the WHA. He scored 77 one year for crying out loud! So I think 100 less in the NHL is sufficient. That puts him around Howe's 801.

 

[Mike C]

Conn Smythe's litmus test: who'd you go in an alley with?

In a no rules-all guts fight to the end Bobby Hull is not anywhere near the list.

Ted Kennedy, Gordie Howe, Ted Lindsay, Johnny Bucyk.

Heroes and winners in the trenches is what the war veteran demanded and respected.

We live in a different era...

Oh! you mean Toronto Ted not Chappaquiddick Ted

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yes, the League had better skating, better offense, better coaching, better defense in the late '80s than in the late '70s (and early '80s).

It improved a lot in the '80s. A big influx of talent.

The numbers say otherwise.

 

[Staniowski]

The numbers say otherwise.

They don't say otherwise. Fewer goals scored doesn't mean better defense. It just means there are fewer goals being scored. It can mean weaker offense.

To put it differently, goals for and goals against are the same statistic, from different perspectives.

Offense and defense can both improve at the same time, which is what happened in the 1980s. But you can't have both more goals scored and fewer goals against, because they are the same thing.

 

[JackSlater]

It is mildly unsettling, to think how this likely outcome rather normalizes Howe's legacy. He becomes far less mythic, from an early 90s pov where his goals record had been passed at least one decade earlier.

I think that that probably better reflects how people viewed Howe and Hull during Hull's playing days. Howe as the better player but not to an untouchable degree.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

They don't say otherwise. Fewer goals scored doesn't mean better defense. It just means there are fewer goals being scored. It can mean weaker offense.

To put it differently, goals for and goals against are the same statistic, from different perspectives.

Offense and defense can both improve at the same time, which is what happened in the 1980s. But you can't have both more goals scored and fewer goals against, because they are the same thing.

Fair enough.

But I still don't buy it.

In the late 90's, goal totals dropped drastically. Was that not better defense, but rather better defense and offense?

Sounds like an argument for the game gets better because players are bigger, stronger, faster, more talented, coaches are better, more creative, equipment is better, etc.

Back to Bobby Hull, would he not have been as great playing in the 80's and 90's instead of the 60's and 70's?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It is mildly unsettling, to think how this likely outcome rather normalizes Howe's legacy. He becomes far less mythic, from an early 90s pov where his goals record had been passed at least one decade earlier.

Throughout the 1960's Hull had surpassed Howe as the NHL's big-ticket player. When he jumped to the WHA they wanted to pronounce him dead to the hockey world. If Hull stays in the NHL and played in the Summit Series, we might be calling it the big 5 up to this point.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

Throughout the 1960's Hull had surpassed Howe as the NHL's big-ticket player. When he jumped to the WHA they wanted to pronounce him dead to the hockey world. If Hull stays in the NHL and played in the Summit Series, we might be calling it the big 5 up to this point.

That's also an interesting thought, how plausible that is. I remember the WHA stink well. I also remember being about as afraid of Chicago as Boston then, speaking as a Habs fan. I've never really thought about how the WHA thing affected our perception of BHull's legacy as a player.

I think that that probably better reflects how people viewed Howe and Hull during Hull's playing days. Howe as the better player but not to an untouchable degree.

That does seem about right. I was surprised to see that some people think that BHull lacked required playoff toughness. I don't remember his toughness or lack thereof at all, just the offensive side. I just remember a guy that was not far from Orr around 71-72. Maybe Espo was up there with them, separation wise from the rest of the league, but anyone else was I can't remember.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

That's also an interesting thought, how plausible that is. I remember the WHA stink well. I also remember being about as afraid of Chicago as Boston then, speaking as a Habs fan. I've never really thought about how the WHA thing affected our perception of BHull's legacy as a player.



That does seem about right. I was surprised to see that some people think that BHull lacked required playoff toughness. I don't remember his toughness or lack thereof at all, just the offensive side. I just remember a guy that was not far from Orr around 71-72. Maybe Espo was up there with them, separation wise from the rest of the league, but anyone else was I can't remember.

The 3 years before he jumped to the WHA (1969-70 - 1971-72) he was not close to the Orr/Espo level.

Orr: 120, 139, 117 - 376 in 230 games (1.63 ppg)
Espo: 99, 152, 133 - 384 in 230 games (1.67 ppg)
Hull: 67, 96, 93 - 256 in 217 games (1.17 ppg)

 

[JackSlater]

That's also an interesting thought, how plausible that is. I remember the WHA stink well. I also remember being about as afraid of Chicago as Boston then, speaking as a Habs fan. I've never really thought about how the WHA thing affected our perception of BHull's legacy as a player.



That does seem about right. I was surprised to see that some people think that BHull lacked required playoff toughness. I don't remember his toughness or lack thereof at all, just the offensive side. I just remember a guy that was not far from Orr around 71-72. Maybe Espo was up there with them, separation wise from the rest of the league, but anyone else was I can't remember.

Yeah I don't think that there are legitimate questions about Hull's toughness or that there ever were, maybe the odd ramble about back alleys or trenches recently. Hull chose to play the game in the way that he did but I've never heard of any player or team intimidating him.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

The 3 years before he jumped to the WHA (1969-70 - 1971-72) he was not close to the Orr/Espo level.

Orr: 120, 139, 117 - 376 in 230 games (1.63 ppg)
Espo: 99, 152, 133 - 384 in 230 games (1.67 ppg)
Hull: 67, 96, 93 - 256 in 217 games (1.17 ppg)

I'm surprised by the separation you note here. I was so blown away by Orr that I never gave Espo the credit he deserved until after the Summit Series. Best performance ever imo.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

Yeah I don't think that there are legitimate questions about Hull's toughness or that there ever were, maybe the odd ramble about back alleys or trenches recently. Hull chose to play the game in the way that he did but I've never heard of any player or team intimidating him.

There's an early picture of Howe with no shirt, maybe in a convertible or something. That's the only physique I can remember from that era that compared to Hull's. Freakishly strong looking.

 

[JackSlater]

There's an early picture of Howe with no shirt, maybe in a convertible or something. That's the only physique I can remember from that era that compared to Hull's. Freakishly strong looking.

Yeah the one of Howe fishing in a boat. Hull has various pictures where he's jacked, working on the farm or selling some kind of beach stuff etc. Being tough is about more than looking jacked but there's nothing to indicate that Hull had any weakness other than losing his hairpiece.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Yeah the one of Howe fishing in a boat. Hull has various pictures where he's jacked, working on the farm or selling some kind of beach stuff etc. Being tough is about more than looking jacked but there's nothing to indicate that Hull had any weakness other than losing his hairpiece.

just made me think of my favorite MMA clip ever, Alexander Emelianenko vs James Thompson. given who his brother is and the fact that he's covered in Russian prison tattoos the outcome should've been expected, but the entire sequence is gold.

 

[Golden_Jet]

just made me think of my favorite MMA clip ever, Alexander Emelianenko vs James Thompson. given who his brother is and the fact that he's covered in Russian prison tattoos the outcome should've been expected, but the entire sequence is gold.

Neither of those guys look as jacked as Hull or Howe was.

 

[JackSlater]

just made me think of my favorite MMA clip ever, Alexander Emelianenko vs James Thompson. given who his brother is and the fact that he's covered in Russian prison tattoos the outcome should've been expected, but the entire sequence is gold.

I miss the old immature MMA days. Actual variety of styles, guys in questionable shape from time to time... was good stuff.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

just made me think of my favorite MMA clip ever, Alexander Emelianenko vs James Thompson. given who his brother is and the fact that he's covered in Russian prison tattoos the outcome should've been expected, but the entire sequence is gold.

Wasn't Emelianenko the toughest guy back in the day? With a performance like that, and the bod to go with it, I have to wonder if E. is related to Patrick Mahomes.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Wasn't Emelianenko the toughest guy back in the day? With a performance like that, and the bod to go with it, I have to wonder if E. is related to Patrick Mahomes.

Yeah, he's a legitimate psychopath too. But show a pre fight picture to the general public and most would've picked Thompson to win

 

[Hanji]

Neither of those guys look as jacked as Hull or Howe was.

Right, but being 'jacked' ≠ stronger or tougher.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

Yeah, he's a legitimate psychopath too. But show a pre fight picture to the general public and most would've picked Thompson to win

(Never underestimate the dad bod.) Now I wonder about a cage match between him and Howe! Unfair I suppose.

I miss the old immature MMA days. Actual variety of styles, guys in questionable shape from time to time... was good stuff.

Rather like a good backpacker resort before it gets run over by tourists.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Right, but being 'jacked' ≠ stronger or tougher.

Bobby Hull was one of the strongest in the game, in his era,