Rumor: Bo Horvat All Purpose Thread (Part 1)

[Canadian Canuck]

That automatically disqualifies him.


If he's so good at center why are you worried about moving Horvat but are fine with moving Miller?

And what are you going to do if Horvat leaves in the off-season and you get nothing in return?

I’d rather that then get peanuts for him.

 

[CBJx614]

I’d rather that then get peanuts for him.

Said no GM ever. Unless they're deadset on re-signing him, that's not gonna happen.

 

[dman34]

Canucks ain't gonna get as much as they think

Bo is done tho in Vancouver. That's obvious. Just think the return for a ufa to a non playoff team won't be as much as some think. Definitely no 2023 1sts involved

Love how peeps are so sure that a 2023 1st will not be involved. It will be that and a plus. Add another plus if he's extended.

 

[Boondock]

No interest whatsoever in Boeser; we have a metric f***ton of one-way scoring wingers.

You think that's the reason this trade is bad? Roslovic and Nyquist for Horvat and Boeser (as the centerpieces)? That is ass for the Canucks.

Horvat + Boeser for Nyqist + Roslovic as a centerpiece?

CBJ to add picks/prospects.

Not even close - the centerpiece would need to be the picks/prospects

 

[BB88]

Agreed, and Ceulmans + 2nd isn't even enough for Horvat without an extension. I'm just saying it starts there before additions happen.

You might as well then talk about your real expectation to trade value

 

[Boondock]

Stopped reading here because of a blatant attempt to assert nonsense that is demonstrably untrue.

EDIT: For example, if you go by Pronman's projections in the Athletic (I'm not normally a fan, for the record), Ceulemans would likely be in Vancouver's top 5 and Marchenko rates above every single U23 Canuck not named Hughes (although the gap between him and Podkolzin would be really really tiny). So if they're B prospects, then Vancouver literally has no A prospects other than Quinn.

EDIT 2: Slight correction on review of the full list - he has Podkolzin just a little bit higher than Marchenko (Podkolzin #53, Marchenko #58). I suppose you could draw the "A prospect" line just after Podkolzin, but good luck convincing the rest of the NHL that guys like Alex Newhook, Cutter Gauthier, and Joakim Kemell aren't A prospects.

No I think it is very fair to say the Canucks have zero A prospects. This speaks to the incompetence of the last ownership group and their total inability to accumulate assets. I spend a lot of time watching and following prospects and I can see the argument that neither Ceulemans or Marchenko are seen as "A" prospects. I think of an A prospect as being pretty much a sure thing for a top 3 D role or a top 6 forward role in the NHL and both Marchenko and Ceulemans have red flags identified by professionals so it's not a completely wrong argument.

Using the Canucks prospect pool as your guide might be part of the problem, Canucks barely have any "B" prospects for that matter.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

You might as well then talk about your real expectation to trade value

Ceulmans + 2nd is equivalent to Barron + 2nd. Avs got a lot less for that package than Bo Horvat.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Horvat for Jiricek Johnson Sillinger Werenski Andrew Peeke 2023 1st unprotected 2024 1st unprotected. Throw in Cuelemans as a sweetener.

Pretty fair value in my opinion.

 

[Viqsi]

No I think it is very fair to say the Canucks have zero A prospects. This speaks to the incompetence of the last ownership group and their total inability to accumulate assets. I spend a lot of time watching and following prospects and I can see the argument that neither Ceulemans or Marchenko are seen as "A" prospects. I think of an A prospect as being pretty much a sure thing for a top 3 D role or a top 6 forward role in the NHL and both Marchenko and Ceulemans have red flags identified by professionals so it's not a completely wrong argument.

Using the Canucks prospect pool as your guide might be part of the problem, Canucks barely have any "B" prospects for that matter.

As stated previously, by that standard that means Horvat isn't worth any "A" prospects and so the distinction is not helpful.

 

[Dr Amazing]

Don't be like that Friedman just say it already Horvat to the Avs and the Avs are the best team in the entire world.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

As stated previously, by that standard that means Horvat isn't worth any "A" prospects and so the distinction is not helpful.

Depending on how you guys feel about KJ still being a prosect at this point in time, you guys have 1 or 2. Jiricek and KJ. Sillinger is a B - B+ prospect (but he is no longer considered a prospect) and Ceulmans is a B. I don't think Horvat gets an A prospect. but he can definitely get a B+ prospect and more IMO.

 

[Viqsi]

Depending on how you guys feel about KJ still being a prosect at this point in time, you guys have 1 or 2. Jiricek and KJ. Sillinger is a B - B+ prospect (but he is no longer considered a prospect) and Ceulmans is a B. I don't think Horvat gets an A prospect. but he can definitely get a B+ prospect and more IMO.

Given that, I can agree. The problem is that the context that conversation was in was dismissing someone like Ceulemans as a possible significant part of a Horvat trade "because he's just a B prospect".

* * *​

You think that's the reason this trade is bad? Roslovic and Nyquist for Horvat and Boeser (as the centerpieces)? That is ass for the Canucks.

That's the reason this trade is bad for the Jackets.

 

[majormajor]

No I think it is very fair to say the Canucks have zero A prospects. This speaks to the incompetence of the last ownership group and their total inability to accumulate assets. I spend a lot of time watching and following prospects and I can see the argument that neither Ceulemans or Marchenko are seen as "A" prospects. I think of an A prospect as being pretty much a sure thing for a top 3 D role or a top 6 forward role in the NHL and both Marchenko and Ceulemans have red flags identified by professionals so it's not a completely wrong argument.

Using the Canucks prospect pool as your guide might be part of the problem, Canucks barely have any "B" prospects for that matter.

I've been following Marchenko since he was 18 and there really aren't any red flags that I've heard of. He's pretty average outside of his finishing skill, not bad at anything. Limited value just because of the winger glut that a lot of clubs have (including Vancouver and Columbus). But there's little doubt that he could pile in the points if he got top six time.

Depending on how you guys feel about KJ still being a prosect at this point in time, you guys have 1 or 2. Jiricek and KJ. Sillinger is a B - B+ prospect (but he is no longer considered a prospect) and Ceulmans is a B. I don't think Horvat gets an A prospect. but he can definitely get a B+ prospect and more IMO.

I give up on using A/B letter grades for prospects. Everyone is using wildly different criteria and standards. By some accounts there are about 20 A prospects per draft, but the way you're doing it, maybe 5-8.

Just junk the whole concept.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

I've been following Marchenko since he was 18 and there really aren't any red flags that I've heard of. He's pretty average outside of his finishing skill, not bad at anything. Limited value just because of the winger glut that a lot of clubs have (including Vancouver and Columbus). But there's little doubt that he could pile in the points if he got top six time.



I give up on using A/B letter grades for prospects. Everyone is using wildly different criteria and standards. By some accounts there are about 20 A prospects per draft, but the way you're doing it, maybe 5-8.

Just junk the whole concept.

To me, an A prospect is someone that will make an immediate impact at the NHL level and do it no later than D+2. Usually, a 1OA would be an A and a few others. Most drafts are B- to B+ prospects in the 1st round. After the 1st round you don't draft really many/any B prospects, but some rise over the years after developing.

Given that, I can agree. The problem is that the context that conversation was in was dismissing someone like Ceulemans as a possible significant part of a Horvat trade "because he's just a B prospect".

* * *​

That's the reason this trade is bad for the Jackets.

B prospect is really what we should be fetching, Horvat realistically is worth 2 B prospects and a pick. From CBJ, a re-signed Horvat should be able to get us the value of Sillinger, Ceulmans and then adding picks for the cap dump at the very least.

 

[M2Beezy]

Horvat for Jiricek Johnson Sillinger Werenski Andrew Peeke 2023 1st unprotected 2024 1st unprotected. Throw in Cuelemans as a sweetener.

Pretty fair value in my opinion.

Isnt Werenski becoming too injury prone tho? Not sure the Canucks should be targetting him

 

[Frenzy31]

To me, an A prospect is someone that will make an immediate impact at the NHL level and do it no later than D+2. Usually, a 1OA would be an A and a few others. Most drafts are B- to B+ prospects in the 1st round. After the 1st round you don't draft really many/any B prospects, but some rise over the years after developing.


B prospect is really what we should be fetching, Horvat realistically is worth 2 B prospects and a pick. From CBJ, a re-signed Horvat should be able to get us the value of Sillinger, Ceulmans and then adding picks for the cap dump at the very least.

I doubt Vancouver gets anything close to Sillinger for a UFA to be center. I think he brings back a late first and a b prospect.

 

[Boondock]

I doubt Vancouver gets anything close to Sillinger for a UFA to be center. I think he brings back a late first and a b prospect.

Which is why the poster clearly stated a RESIGNED Horvat...

 

[Frenzy31]

Which is why the poster clearly stated a RESIGNED Horvat...

When was the last time that happened during the season. Blue jacket will have insisted on having contract talks, but that doesn’t mean it will increase his value.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

I doubt Vancouver gets anything close to Sillinger for a UFA to be center. I think he brings back a late first and a b prospect.

Re-Signed, so no longer a UFA Center, but one with term.

 

[Golden_Jet]

When was the last time that happened during the season. Blue jacket will have insisted on having contract talks, but that doesn’t mean it will increase his value.

A signed player or one that will sign, will be worth more than an unsigned player and not knowing if they will sign.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

A signed player or one that will sign, will be worth more than an unsigned player and not knowing if they will sign.

Exactly a team (Even CBJ) will pay more knowing he is willing to re-sign at the time of the deal, and even more than that if the extension is in place before the deal.

 

[Fro]

I will apparently be the CBJ fan that says in a deal for a signed BH, I would put Sillinger in there...

Then the figure is how to turn our 1st plus a couple prospects/NHL wingers into a true 1C in the draft...

 

[majormajor]

I doubt Vancouver gets anything close to Sillinger for a UFA to be center. I think he brings back a late first and a b prospect.

The Jackets aren't acquiring a UFA to be center. There will obviously be a re-sign if he's going there.

Sillinger might be involved but i highly doubt there will be any + to that. And if the Canucks balk at that, that's fine. They can send Horvat to the Avs for a couple late 1sts.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

The Jackets aren't acquiring a UFA to be center. There will obviously be a re-sign if he's going there.

Sillinger might be involved but i highly doubt there will be any + to that. And if the Canucks balk at that, that's fine. They can send Horvat to the Avs for a couple late 1sts.

Sillinger is not good enough to get a signed Horvat. I understand he has a ton of potential, but Horvat simply holds the value between the two. There is 100% a + to Sillinger if he is the main piece in a signed Horvat deal.

 

[Fro]

The Jackets aren't acquiring a UFA to be center. There will obviously be a re-sign if he's going there.

Sillinger might be involved but i highly doubt there will be any + to that. And if the Canucks balk at that, that's fine. They can send Horvat to the Avs for a couple late 1sts.

Sorry man, that's straight homerism...Sillinger is very much still a prospect, so a + will be necc...I believe it's totally worth a solid +...not Corsen...but a C+/B- prospect and a 2nd more than likely