Blues Trade Proposals 2021-2022 Part 1

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Brian39

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But as we have seen, using every dollar means we can usually only bring up barebones call ups. Some wiggle room is good to have, ideally more that what we currently have.
For sure, but having the best playoff roster possible is more important than having that wiggle room. We are comfortably in a playoff spot (94.4% to make the playoffs according to MoneyPuck) and the cap doesn't apply once playoffs start. If the only way to add an upgrade able to play in the playoffs is to deal with barebones call ups in the regular season, you bite the bullet and deal with the barebones call ups. In a perfect world, we make an upgrade AND gain some extra wiggle room. But that will be tough. I'm not willing to weaken the playoff roster to get more breathing room.
 

Celtic Note

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For sure, but having the best playoff roster possible is more important than having that wiggle room. We are comfortably in a playoff spot (94.4% to make the playoffs according to MoneyPuck) and the cap doesn't apply once playoffs start. If the only way to add an upgrade able to play in the playoffs is to deal with barebones call ups in the regular season, you bite the bullet and deal with the barebones call ups. In a perfect world, we make an upgrade AND gain some extra wiggle room. But that will be tough. I'm not willing to weaken the playoff roster to get more breathing room.
Fair point. Sometimes our call ups play better than the regulars.
 

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We need a much bigger upgrade than that
I’m not convinced we need that. We need someone that is solid position ally and good at making first pass to exit zone. Someone who Parayko can feel confident with. Because if Parayko is able to trust his partner and relax, Parayko is the stud defenseman we have been missing.
 

Linkens Mastery

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We need a much bigger upgrade than that
I was just looking at players who would be cheaper to grab who are defensively responsible and can eat minutes (Graves has a 21 ATOI currently) with Parayko. Also think Graves is much more a top 4 defensemen than Scandella.
 

Linkens Mastery

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I would. If available, he'd be a good target IMO.
Like looking through the bottom teams in the league these are the players I'd think were large enough upgrades and ranked how much I want them and my biggest issue with acquiring them.

Ari-Chychrun (1) (most expensive)
Phi-Provorov (2) (large caphit for four more years)
CBJ-Gavrikov (3) (good caphit 26yo but is he ready to be a minute eater on a team looking for a cup)
NJD-Graves (4) (same as Gavrikov)
Sea-Gio (5) (too old)
MTL-Eddy (6) (I may just be too attached and Bias towards wanting him back)
 

Reality Czech

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Like looking through the bottom teams in the league these are the players I'd think were large enough upgrades and ranked how much I want them and my biggest issue with acquiring them.

Ari-Chychrun (1) (most expensive)
Phi-Provorov (2) (large caphit for four more years)
CBJ-Gavrikov (3) (good caphit 26yo but is he ready to be a minute eater on a team looking for a cup)
NJD-Graves (4) (same as Gavrikov)
Sea-Gio (5) (too old)
MTL-Eddy (6) (I may just be too attached and Bias towards wanting him back)

While it would be great to add someone like Chychrun or Provorov, I still feel it's very unlikely because we will need cap flexibility to resign our RFAs and O'Reilly. I remember looking around the league to see how much teams generally spend on defense, and most teams spend roughly $19-24 million. Like it or not, we are commited to our top 3 for the foreseeable future and I think it's much more likely we will persue a rental or perhaps a cheaper option like Mayfield. I am hesitant about paying a big price for someone like Chychrun, especially if it means we will have to sacrifice forward depth in the coming years.

Gio may be old, but he'd be a pretty solid add as purely a rental.
 
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Linkens Mastery

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While it would be great to add someone like Chychrun or Provorov, I still feel it's very unlikely because we will need cap flexibility to resign our RFAs and O'Reilly. I remember looking around the league to see how much teams generally spend on defense, and most teams spend roughly $19-24 million. Like it or not, we are commited to our top 3 for the foreseeable future and I think it's much more likely we will persue a rental or perhaps a cheaper option like Mayfield. I am hesitant about paying a big price for someone like Chychrun, especially if it means we will have to sacrifice forward depth in the coming years.

Gio may be old, but he'd be a pretty solid add as purely a rental.
Chychrun's contract would not hinder this team financially. Provorov I agree. That's why I brought up Graves (3.2m until the end of next year) and Gavrikov (2.8m until the end of next year). Also, until he says otherwise no matter how much people don't want to believe it, Tarasenko still wants out so his 7.5m caphit would be available as well. Blues need to do all they can to win this year and next.
 

LGB

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I originally thought trading for Chychrun might be committing too many resources to the D, but the low current cap hit and when he becomes a UFA actually makes it pretty manageable. When we'd have to re-sign him both Faulk and Krug will have 2 years left on their contracts and be trade-able.

If Tarasenko still wants out we definitely need to make that happen most likely this off-season. Really we're better off getting assets now rather than committing a lot of money to another aging forward. If we do trade for Chychrun just a typical Tarasenko for futures trade to recoup some of whatever we traded for Chychrun makes sense. If we don't end up with Chychrun though I wonder what a Vladi trade would look like.
 

bleedblue1223

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Like looking through the bottom teams in the league these are the players I'd think were large enough upgrades and ranked how much I want them and my biggest issue with acquiring them.

Ari-Chychrun (1) (most expensive)
Phi-Provorov (2) (large caphit for four more years)
CBJ-Gavrikov (3) (good caphit 26yo but is he ready to be a minute eater on a team looking for a cup)
NJD-Graves (4) (same as Gavrikov)
Sea-Gio (5) (too old)
MTL-Eddy (6) (I may just be too attached and Bias towards wanting him back)
Toss Sanheim in around Gavrikov on the list.
 

ChicagoBlues

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I originally thought trading for Chychrun might be committing too many resources to the D, but the low current cap hit and when he becomes a UFA actually makes it pretty manageable. When we'd have to re-sign him both Faulk and Krug will have 2 years left on their contracts and be trade-able.

If Tarasenko still wants out we definitely need to make that happen most likely this off-season. Really we're better off getting assets now rather than committing a lot of money to another aging forward. If we do trade for Chychrun just a typical Tarasenko for futures trade to recoup some of whatever we traded for Chychrun makes sense. If we don't end up with Chychrun though I wonder what a Vladi trade would look like.
Salary out is usually salary in. I want to keep Tarasenko for two more Cup runs, then let him walk.

Recouping assets would be great, but at the cost of having to squeeze out some one because they cost too much.

I’m really torn between the two scenarios.
 
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Reality Czech

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Chychrun's contract would not hinder this team financially. Provorov I agree. That's why I brought up Graves (3.2m until the end of next year) and Gavrikov (2.8m until the end of next year). Also, until he says otherwise no matter how much people don't want to believe it, Tarasenko still wants out so his 7.5m caphit would be available as well. Blues need to do all they can to win this year and next.

I get what you're saying. If we can upgrade Scandella/Mikkola without adding too much salary it would help us greatly. I'm sure we could fit Chychrun and I would probably be ok with that, especially if Perunovich is part of the return package. He would be worth more to us in a trade package then he would on the team if we have our top 4 locked down for the near future. I'm still on board the Mayfield train although Lou might not be so willing to part with him.
 

Linkens Mastery

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Salary out is usually salary in. I want to keep Tarasenko for two more Cup runs, then let him walk.

Recouping assets would be great, but at the cost of having to squeeze out some one because they cost too much.

I’m really torn between the two scenarios.
Continually letting high level players walk in free agency is going to end up burning us. Look at Columbus. Breadman, Bob, and multiple other players walked and now they are right back at the bottom 1/2 of the league. We can't let Schwartz, Pietro, Tarasenko all walk for absolutely nothing. And I fully believe if Tarasenko's trade request is still out there, Army will do everything possible to get it done for Tarasenko.
 

Linkens Mastery

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I get what you're saying. If we can upgrade Scandella/Mikkola without adding too much salary it would help us greatly. I'm sure we could fit Chychrun and I would probably be ok with that, especially if Perunovich is part of the return package. He would be worth more to us in a trade package then he would on the team if we have our top 4 locked down for the near future. I'm still on board the Mayfield train although Lou might not be so willing to part with him.
While I love Mayfield but upgrading Bortuzzo at the current time should be the least of our priorities.
 

tfriede2

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Continually letting high level players walk in free agency is going to end up burning us. Look at Columbus. Breadman, Bob, and multiple other players walked and now they are right back at the bottom 1/2 of the league. We can't let Schwartz, Pietro, Tarasenko all walk for absolutely nothing. And I fully believe if Tarasenko's trade request is still out there, Army will do everything possible to get it done for Tarasenko.
I used to think this way, but I’m coming around to DA’s philosophy that you’re not getting nothing - you’re getting the cap space to sign other players. Schwartz leaving allowed us to trade for Buchnevich; it could be viewed as Schwartz, Blais, and a 2nd for Buchnevich, which I would absolutely do. As long as that extra cap space is being used, you’re not getting nothing in return, and there’s no reason to believe that the Blues won’t be using that extra cap space. Now, if the Blues could trade Tarasenko in the off-season for pure futures (thus leaving all that cap space to be used), then sure, go for it - but there aren’t many teams that can absorb all that cap without trying to send us back cap in return.
 

Linkens Mastery

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I used to think this way, but I’m coming around to DA’s philosophy that you’re not getting nothing - you’re getting the cap space to sign other players. Schwartz leaving allowed us to trade for Buchnevich; it could be viewed as Schwartz, Blais, and a 2nd for Buchnevich, which I would absolutely do. As long as that extra cap space is being used, you’re not getting nothing in return, and there’s no reason to believe that the Blues won’t be using that extra cap space. Now, if the Blues could trade Tarasenko in the off-season for pure futures (thus leaving all that cap space to be used), then sure, go for it - but there aren’t many teams that can absorb all that cap without trying to send us back cap in return.
In the offseason they have much more flexibility to sign players and trade people afterwards. Look at what Vegas did with Pie. My thoughts on a Tarasenko trade has always been a futures package. Say we let Tarasenko walk and we sign Tkachuk. That's a good trade in itself. But, if we trade Tarasenko for a 1st and a good prospect then sign Tkachuk, now we have Tarasenko for Tkachuk, A prospect, and a 1st.
 
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bleedblue1223

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Yeah, letting players walk is all about how you utilize that cap space. Petro for Krug was a less than ideal swap, but we couldn't allocate the cap to Petro and have the current forward core that we have. Schwartz for Buchnevich on the other had is a huge upgrade, even if you factor in the acquisition cost. If moving Tarasenko allows us to comfortably fit in a LHD upgrade and even save some cap space, then we are making a solid move, but if you are doing it for a guy that is a less than ideal fit, then it's not so good.

In general, I'll trust Army to make the correct decision in reallocating that cap, as he has a really good track record on acquisitions.
 
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Brian39

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Continually letting high level players walk in free agency is going to end up burning us. Look at Columbus. Breadman, Bob, and multiple other players walked and now they are right back at the bottom 1/2 of the league. We can't let Schwartz, Pietro, Tarasenko all walk for absolutely nothing. And I fully believe if Tarasenko's trade request is still out there, Army will do everything possible to get it done for Tarasenko.
I don't think that the amount of UFAs we have previously let walk has an impact on whether we should let another walk. You have to look at how your organization is currently equipped to absorb the loss. I also don't think the Columbus comparison is all that relevant because those two guys were basically responsible for all of that team's success.

Panarin is a better player than anyone we let walk by a wide margin. He's a 90+ point forward that was in his prime when he walked. Bob's impact as a Blue Jacket was also bigger than any of the guys we let walk. He was a 2 time Vezina winner with a career .921 over 7 years with Columbus. Columbus was never a very good team and these two essentially carried them. They were a sub-100 point team bacl-to-back years with those two guys as the clear most important players. Moreover, Columbus has a host of other issues besides letting both of their best 2 players walk. That year, they also traded a 1st and a couple mid-level prospects for a rental Duchene. They traded Duclair and two 2nds for a rental Dzingel. They went completely all in for that 2018/19 season as a 98 point team. They gave up a 1st, two 2nds, a young forward and a couple prospects for rentals that walked on top of letting Bob/Panarin walk. That's a ton of turnover in one summer, yet the next year they only dropped 4 points in the standings (98 points to a 94 point pace). Then Murray walked after the 2020 season (traded his rights for a 5th), they made no meaningful acquisitions, PL Dubois got disgruntled and was traded at the start of the 2021 shortened season. It was all of this that left them terrible last season and triggered the rebuild. They let way more top end (and total) talent walk out the door, actively mortgaged the future to acquire some of those rentals, did basically nothing to bring in meaningful replacements and they were worse than us to begin with.

Contrast that to our situation where we let Schwartz walk and immediately got a "free" asset in Saad to replace him for less than what Schwartz had been making. We have traded a few futures assets in the last couple years, but we've locked up the guys we acquired with them. Eddy and a recent 1st (Bokk) turned in to Faulk, who was immediately locked into the organization. Say what you will about the contract, but he is absolutely a #3 D man at worst. We moved a 2nd and a promising young forward (Blais) for Buch who was immediately locked up for 4 years. His contract looks like a bargain and he is a legit top line forward. WhenPetro walked, we promptly went out and acquired Krug. Again, say what you will about the contract but he was a "free" asset to pick up and he is a damn good offensive blueliner. If you're ignoring the freed up cap space when talking about letting guys walk, then you also have to think about signed UFAs as free pickups.

This is the "in and out" major balance sheet since the Cup:

Out: Petro, Bo, Eddy, Dunn, Schwartz, Steen, Blais, Sanford, Allen, Bokk, 2nd round pick, 2nd round pick, 4th round pick

In: Faulk, Krug, Scandella, Buch, Saad, Brown, 3rd round pick, 4th round pick

That is a fairly well-balanced sheet. There is a clear loss of value to the D, but it isn't a massive drop off. Buch+Saad is a very clear upgrade over the forward losses and we lost a good backup to make room for an internal option. The draft pick/prospect loss is noticeable, but we didn't give up a single high-value asset. We kept our 2 bests prospects (Kyrou/Thomas) and kept all our 1st rounders. There was no futures mortgage like Columbus and we recouped a lot of value unlike Columbus. Army has done a masterful job at choosing the right prospects to keep, developing mid-level prospects into useful assets and locking up the players we trade for. 5 years of ROR for assets all deemed non-essential. 3 years (plus another 8) of Schenn for a couple 1sts (one acquired by trading our own rental) and a salary dump. 8 years of Faulk for Bokk and Eddy.

You can't just look at the 2-3 guys we have let walk for nothing. You have to balance them against the other moves we have made to gain organizational value. Vova being the 3rd UFA to walk means nothing on its own. It only matters how well the organization is positioned to absorb that loss. We've built a damn good forward group and by 2023 I am confident that Kyrou and Buch will both be more valuable wingers moving forward than Tarasenko. Thomas and ROR should both be more valuable centers and Saad/Schenn should both be good middle 6 contributors. Letting him walk doesn't create nearly the hole that Panarin left in Columbus. It would put us n position where we are replacing our 5th most valuable forward.
 

Brian39

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In the offseason they have much more flexibility to sign players and trade people afterwards. Look at what Vegas did with Pie. My thoughts on a Tarasenko trade has always been a futures package. Say we let Tarasenko walk and we sign Tkachuk. That's a good trade in itself. But, if we trade Tarasenko for a 1st and a good prospect then sign Tkachuk, now we have Tarasenko for Tkachuk, A prospect, and a 1st.
But that balance sheet doesn't tell the full story. Because in order to accomplish all that we have to go a year (or more) without a replacement for Vova. Trading Tarasenko happens either now or this summer. Let's assume this summer b/c I don't see us trading him for futures now. Signing Tkachuk doesn't happen until the summer of 2023 at the earliest unless you are talking about an offer sheet that will either cost two 1sts, a 2nd and a 3rd or four 1sts. So in order to get that extra 1st and prospect you are noticeably weakening the 2022/23 team or shedding significant assets to pry Tkachuk out of Calgary on a massive AAV offer sheet that they don't want to match. On top of that, using Tarasenko's cap space to bring in someone from outside the organization also costs us the ability to re-sign other players. Tkachuk is going to be a $9M+ player on an offer sheet or as a UFA in 2023.

Going to your Vegas comparison, they got basically nothing for what they traded. They moved Nate Schmidt and Paul Stastny for a 3rd, a 4th and Carl Dahlstrom. They got literally nothing for the reigning Vezina winner this summer. You don't get value back in a trade when everyone around the league knows that you have to shed salary. It is really hard to trade expensive players for pure futures, especially when teams know that you have to shed that salary.
 
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Reality Czech

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While I love Mayfield but upgrading Bortuzzo at the current time should be the least of our priorities.

Oops, for some reason I thought he was a lefty. My bad!

For the record, I agree with Brian regarding letting assets walk. Every situation is different and every team loses guys for "nothing" at some point, it's just the nature of the business. It made sense not to trade Petro and Schwartz at the deadline while it made just as much sense to trade Shatty and Staz. These players are so close on and off the ice that you don't just trade a guy at the deadline because you might lose him for nothing unless the team has no chance of postseason success. I think fans sometimes get more caught up in "asset management" than GMs do. Having free cap space can be an asset in itself, as Brian points out.

In the case of Columbus, it might have been the "smart" business move to trade those guys at the deadline but what message does it send to the fan base and rest of the team to wave the white flag after a hard-fought season? I don't think it was the wrong decision not to trade those guys when looking at the big picture, and I give Jarmo credit for having the balls not to pull the trigger in that situation. At some point you've just gotta take your best shot and hope for the best.

Re: Tarasenko...I'll be shocked if he's traded this season but I'll be nearly as shocked if he isn't traded before next season starts.
 
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Brian39

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I made a long post in the "Around the NHL" thread about how terrible the Oilers are and how they need to start thinking about trading Connor before his NMC kicks in, he gets fully disgruntled, demands a trade but wields his NMC to reduce their market to 1-2 teams. I think that the Oilers have gone past the point of being able to build a good roster around McDavid while he's in his prime.

Anyway, after that post I tacked on a Blues-centric trade proposal for fun. I know the Oilers aren't trading Connor and that the business side of the sport would overrule even a fair value trade. With all that said, here was my screw around proposal for McDavid:

ROR, Buch, Neighbours, Perunovich and two 1sts for Connor.

That gives them two top line caliber NHLers who are very good defensively. They would get about a year to negotiate extension with ROR if they wanted or they could flip him (retaining 50%) for a massive haul of futures if they are going scorched Earth rebuild. Buch is locked in at a reasonable AAV for 3 years after this. Those two are two quality pieces to build around if you are trying to be competitive now. Or they could be hugely valuable as trade chips if you are going full tear-it-down rebuild. You aren't going to get enough pure futures from 1 team in a deal for Connor if that is the route you want to go, so it is important to target roster players that have high trade value. ROR and Buch combine for $13.3M against the cap. Factoring in the press box forward this forces off the roster for them and the cap is basically a wash.

It also gives them an approaching-NHL-ready prospect in Neighbours, a boom/bust prospect in Perunovich and a couple (likely late) 1st rounders.

Honestly, I don't know that they would get a better offer. Once you start going past that number/quality of assets, you start hitting a point where your remaining organizational outlook looks too thin to put a contender around Connor. Let's say they do it mid-season and commit to a full rebuild now. They would easily get three 1st round equivalent assets for ROR at 50% retained. Two playoff runs of a top line center at $3.75M against the cap would have massive trade value. Buch has raised his stock since we acquired him, proving that he wasn't just riding the coattails of Zibby. I bet they could get the Schenn return for him at the draft (two 1sts) if they take back a bad contract like Philly did. Suddenly they are looking at this trade netting them eight 1st round pick quality assets (two 1sts from us, Neighbours, two 1sts from Buch, and the three 1st-caliber assets from ROR).

Barby-McDavid-Tarasenko
Schenn-Thomas-Kyrou
Saad-Sunny-Perron
Brown-Bozak-Kostin

Spread the top 9 around how ever you want. Or slide Sunny down to the 4th line, Barby at 3C and put Brown/Kostin with McDavid to see if he can turn them in to 50 point guys.

It's a pretty damn appealing 2 year roster and I'd wager that the core would stay good enough that we could do a better job than Edmonton of luring useful UFAs to take bargain deals here.
 

MissouriMook

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If we're dreaming in the McDavid trade scenario, why not assume that Schenn would love to go back to Western Canada and send him in the deal instead of Buch. I'd much rather keep Buch and deal Schenn even though it weakens our center depth, but I'm in the minority that thinks Schenn is better on the wing than in the middle.

If Edmonton does get desperate enough to trade one of McDavid or Draisaitl, I'm guessing that an absolute stud #1D is going to be the top thing they're looking for as part of the return.
 
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