Blues 2024 Off-Season Trade Proposals Thread

[sfvega]

I miss the days of being big and physical. We are now small p***yes

I'm not big on that mindset per se, but I agree. I think we need to get bigger and more physical and we have had issues clearing the crease. I'd like to get bigger defenseman who can block shots and are tough to play against. But I think given the contracts Army has handed out on D, we're looking for that in the draft rather than overpaying Zadorov in FA. I'd love him on a 4x4 contract, but never a 6x6.

I think the draft is where we should address it. I'd love to move up and get Elick in the late 1st, early 2nd. Big solid kid with a mean streak who is tough to play against.

 

[Majorityof1]

I'm not big on that mindset per se, but I agree. I think we need to get bigger and more physical and we have had issues clearing the crease. I'd like to get bigger defenseman who can block shots and are tough to play against. But I think given the contracts Army has handed out on D, we're looking for that in the draft rather than overpaying Zadorov in FA. I'd love him on a 4x4 contract, but never a 6x6.

I think the draft is where we should address it. I'd love to move up and get Elick in the late 1st, early 2nd. Big solid kid with a mean streak who is tough to play against.

Lots of our guys are big enough to clear the crease. Even the smaller guys can try to get inside position. They just don't,

 

[Celtic Note]

The CBA is vague/silent on the issue. Like a lot of contract stuff, we never get to see the actual language used. This is the type of issue that legally could be determined by a contract using the word "by" vs the word "on."

I agree that the PA wouldn't like paying a bonus early to worm around a NTC, but they would also very much like the precedent that a team can choose to pay bonuses early because that could often be very beneficial to players.

Let's say that there are 2 potential trades for Sergachev between the Blues and Bolts, so Tampa is able to tell the player "you're getting traded to St Louis before your trade protection kicks in 7/1. We like the return better if we pay you your bonus today, so here is a check for $6M while your residency is still in this no-tax state."

In that circumstance, it is in Sergachev's interest to take the check instead of fighting it.

The odds of it being allowed are very slim and the odds of it actually happening are even slimmer. It's just the type of creative problem solving I like to think about. It could open the door to cash rich teams gaining another tool to work around the cap is creative ways.

I had a similar thought about the Union. If they raise a stink about the bonus being paid before the deadline because of a subsequent trade, then they are effectively advocating for bonuses to be paid on the deadline and that’s not favorable to all the other conditions where a player is not traded. Unless there is language that prevents paying a bonus for the sake of trade, I would be surprised if the union take a position against bonuses being paid before the deadline.

 

[PocketNines]

Binnington is either 1) going to go to Toronto for a haul, and go win a Cup there and become an all time sports legend with two statues outside two arenas, or 2) he is going to stay a Blue and go over 200 wins and cement himself hands down as THE all time Blues goalie.

Selfishly I want the latter

 

[bleedblue1223]

I am curious what happens there. Selfishly, I don't want him to go, but him having the season that he did, Toronto flopping like they did, and Toronto hiring Berube almost feels like a perfect storm. I don't think it's a guarantee that Berube wants someone from the Blues and Toronto gets them, but it wouldn't shock me if he pushes for Binnington. Maybe people would view his personality as a risk there, but that locker room needs someone like him that brings the fire and ability on the ice.

They don't really have much to trade with, but I could do something around #23. Roll with Hofer and bring in a solid vet.

 

[PocketNines]

I would be pissed if Binnington got sent off and the main return was a late 1st next year. I can't really think of a deal I would like except if it involved Knies and that is absolutely a fantasy

 

[bleedblue1223]

Cowan is a genuinely good prospect, Knies is a recently graduated genuinely good prospect. Robertson, Minten, and Niemela are decent enough, but nothing exciting. Hildeby is an intriguing goalie prospect.

 

[MissouriMook]

I am curious what happens there. Selfishly, I don't want him to go, but him having the season that he did, Toronto flopping like they did, and Toronto hiring Berube almost feels like a perfect storm. I don't think it's a guarantee that Berube wants someone from the Blues and Toronto gets them, but it wouldn't shock me if he pushes for Binnington. Maybe people would view his personality as a risk there, but that locker room needs someone like him that brings the fire and ability on the ice.

They don't really have much to trade with, but I could do something around #23. Roll with Hofer and bring in a solid vet.

I'd be fine with Binnington going to Toronto, but I'd want Woll coming back the other way. I feel like running a tandem of Hofer and Woll, two young guys with a baseline of NHL experience, through the re-[whatever] would be fine. It would allow you more cap space to address the needs on defense until one of them emerged as a clear #1.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

I'd be fine with Binnington going to Toronto, but I'd want Woll coming back the other way. I feel like running a tandem of Hofer and Woll, two young guys with a baseline of NHL experience, through the re-[whatever] would be fine. It would allow you more cap space to address the needs on defense until one of them emerged as a clear #1.

We would for sure need to bring another goalie in. I definitely do not just want to throw Hofer to the Wolves. I wonder if Anderson would be an option if Carolina is looking to make a goaltending shakeup. Although I suspect they’d want Binnington back in that deal. Obviously they’d have to add.

 

[bleedblue1223]

A deal around Woll and a futures piece wouldn't shock me. We could also sign a quality vet if we think Ellis or Zherenko will be ready soon.

 

[PocketNines]

The whole thought exercise feels gross

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I had a similar thought about the Union. If they raise a stink about the bonus being paid before the deadline because of a subsequent trade, then they are effectively advocating for bonuses to be paid on the deadline and that’s not favorable to all the other conditions where a player is not traded. Unless there is language that prevents paying a bonus for the sake of trade, I would be surprised if the union take a position against bonuses being paid before the deadline.

I don’t agree. The issue isn’t whether teams can pay bonuses early, it’s whether they can pay it early to circumvent ntc. That changes equation. It’s like an employer can generally fire someone who is an at-will employee for any or no reason, but they can’t fire them because they are pregnant. Or Black. Or for a handful of other reasons that are not allowed. So while the union might be good with guys getting paid early, that in no way would be enough for them to look other way when it’s done to thwart player’s ntc. I can’t fathom they won’t raise holy hell if someone tries to do that, and rightly so.

 

[Majorityof1]

I don’t agree. The issue isn’t whether teams can pay bonuses early, it’s whether they can pay it early to circumvent ntc. That changes equation. It’s like an employer can generally fire someone who is an at-will employee for any or no reason, but they can’t fire them because they are pregnant. Or Black. Or for a handful of other reasons that are not allowed. So while the union might be good with guys getting paid early, that in no way would be enough for them to look other way when it’s done to thwart player’s ntc. I can’t fathom they won’t raise holy hell if someone tries to do that, and rightly so.

Your employment discrimination comparison doesn't fit. There are laws that specifically bar employment discrimination. There are no laws/rules/agreements that we know of that specifically prohibit paying bonuses early to make a player more palatable to trade. The union might still protest, but the example is not similar

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Your employment discrimination comparison doesn't fit. There are laws that specifically bar employment discrimination. There are no laws/rules/agreements that we know of that specifically prohibit paying bonuses early to make a player more palatable to trade. The union might still protest, but the example is not similar

The concept is the same. I guarantee you there is no way a team can pay bonus early to circumvent cap and union just throws up hands and says “that is fine”. Union would object and deal would likely be blocked. 100% certain that it wouldn’t fly. Anything else is just fantasy.

 

[Majorityof1]

The concept is the same. I guarantee you there is no way a tea can pay bonus early to circumvent cap and union just throws up hands and says “that is fine”. Union would object and deal would likely be blocked. 100% certain that it wouldn’t fly. Anything else is just fantasy.

It's not the same. One is an inalienable right and the other is a contractual one. Courts give far more protection to inalienable ones. I'll trust @Brian39 , the lawyer, here. It is doubtful it would be allowed but we do not know enough to be sure. And your example does not change that

 

[Brockon]

It's not the same. One is an inalienable right and the other is a contractual one. Courts give far more protection to inalienable ones. I'll trust @Brian39 , the lawyer, here. It is doubtful it would be allowed but we do not know enough to be sure. And your example does not change that

I can see one team doing it once, before the league seals the loophole to avoid the NHLPA uproar and subsequent fallout.

If there is no specific clause within the CBA and its a matter of legal interpretation of the written law, it would be addressed in the board of governers next session - potentially setting a ban on the practice until it could be ratified within the CBA, or an understanding established that this is not allowed until it's written into the next CBA.

Something akin to the contracts over 8 years in length receiving penalties for cap circumvention prior to the change in CBA allowable contracts.

 

[Brian39]

The concept is the same. I guarantee you there is no way a tea can pay bonus early to circumvent cap and union just throws up hands and says “that is fine”. Union would object and deal would likely be blocked. 100% certain that it wouldn’t fly. Anything else is just fantasy.

Whether or not it could be deemed circumvention would be determined by the language of the contract. If a contract creates a payment deadline, then I am within my rights to pay you before that deadline if that is better for me. Whether it is worse for you is irrelevant if the contract allows me to pay early (and that contract term is not in violation of any specific rules/laws).

Using the rules to your advantage is almost universally allowed, even when it negatively impacts others.

I don’t agree. The issue isn’t whether teams can pay bonuses early, it’s whether they can pay it early to circumvent ntc. That changes equation. It’s like an employer can generally fire someone who is an at-will employee for any or no reason, but they can’t fire them because they are pregnant. Or Black. Or for a handful of other reasons that are not allowed. So while the union might be good with guys getting paid early, that in no way would be enough for them to look other way when it’s done to thwart player’s ntc. I can’t fathom they won’t raise holy hell if someone tries to do that, and rightly so.

I don't believe that the PA would not be successful if their argument becomes 'you can pay a bonus early if it doesn't negatively impact the player, but you can't pay a bonus early if it negatively impacts the player.' If the rules allow something. Doing that thing before a NTC has gone into effect is going to be allowed. I don't see a successful legal argument that a team can't adhere to valid contract terms in order to trade a guy before a NTC kicks in.

To be successful, I think the PA would very much have to win on the issue that the CBA as interpreted (or the specific language of the contract) prohibits the early payment of bonuses. I think that they have a really good argument there. I think the PA could argue that the CBA limits on year-to-year salary variance infer that bonuses can't be paid early since they are part of that calculation and that this rule suggests that 7/1 is a pay date and not a pay deadline.

I think this is a purely hypothetical, never going to happen scenario. But if the league were to allow such a deal, I very much think that the PA would either have to challenge on the ground that bonuses can't be paid early, not that teams are allowed to pay a bonus early, but not if their motive is unfavorable to the player.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Whether or not it could be deemed circumvention would be determined by the language of the contract. If a contract creates a payment deadline, then I am within my rights to pay you before that deadline if that is better for me. Whether it is worse for you is irrelevant if the contract allows me to pay early (and that contract term is not in violation of any specific rules/laws).

Using the rules to your advantage is almost universally allowed, even when it negatively impacts others.



I don't believe that the PA would not be successful if their argument becomes 'you can pay a bonus early if it doesn't negatively impact the player, but you can't pay a bonus early if it negatively impacts the player.' If the rules allow something. Doing that thing before a NTC has gone into effect is going to be allowed. I don't see a successful legal argument that a team can't adhere to valid contract terms in order to trade a guy before a NTC kicks in.

To be successful, I think the PA would very much have to win on the issue that the CBA as interpreted (or the specific language of the contract) prohibits the early payment of bonuses. I think that they have a really good argument there. I think the PA could argue that the CBA limits on year-to-year salary variance infer that bonuses can't be paid early since they are part of that calculation and that this rule suggests that 7/1 is a pay date and not a pay deadline.

I think this is a purely hypothetical, never going to happen scenario. But if the league were to allow such a deal, I very much think that the PA would either have to challenge on the ground that bonuses can't be paid early, not that teams are allowed to pay a bonus early, but not if their motive is unfavorable to the player.

Regardless of the universality of the principle, TBL can't pay Sergie the bonus early because even if otherwise permitted (of which I remain dubious) it would then count as '23-24 compensation because signing bonuses are charged to the year in which they are paid. TB doesn't have cap room to do that, and even if they did the additional compensation would violate the variability rule of the CBA. So the PA wouldn't need to do anything here, because other parts of the CBA prohibit the Lightning from paying the bonus early. Case closed!

 

[WeWentBlues]

Regardless of the universality of the principle, TBL can't pay Sergie the bonus early because even if otherwise permitted (of which I remain dubious) it would then count as '23-24 compensation because signing bonuses are charged to the year in which they are paid. TB doesn't have cap room to do that, and even if they did the additional compensation would violate the variability rule of the CBA. So the PA wouldn't need to do anything here, because other parts of the CBA prohibit the Lightning from paying the bonus early. Case closed!

Not so sure about that. Guys have been dealt after July 1 with their their bonuses already paid and the entire cap hit going with the traded player to the acquiring team.

 

[Memento]

I am curious what happens there. Selfishly, I don't want him to go, but him having the season that he did, Toronto flopping like they did, and Toronto hiring Berube almost feels like a perfect storm. I don't think it's a guarantee that Berube wants someone from the Blues and Toronto gets them, but it wouldn't shock me if he pushes for Binnington. Maybe people would view his personality as a risk there, but that locker room needs someone like him that brings the fire and ability on the ice.

They don't really have much to trade with, but I could do something around #23. Roll with Hofer and bring in a solid vet.

I’d do it that in a heartbeat. Roll with Hofer and a vet until one of Ellis or Zherenko is ready to team up with Hofer. I’ve grown tired of Binnington’s infantile antics. He’s a hell of a goalie, but so was Belfour, and I’d hate having to root for Belfour as well. Getting a first round pick would just be a bonus.

 

[bleedblue1223]

He really didn't have any antics this past season...

 

[BlueDream]

Thoughts and prayers to the people who have to root for Binnington, the only goalie in Blues history to bring our franchise a Cup. Without him, we still wouldn’t have any.

Your lives must be so tough having to root for that guy, just because he’s been a hothead a few times.

 

[Memento]

Thoughts and prayers to the people who have to root for Binnington, the only goalie in Blues history to bring our franchise a Cup. Without him, we still wouldn’t have any.

Your lives must be so tough having to root for that guy, just because he’s been a hothead a few times.

Wow. I didn’t know that you were a secret Toronto Maple Leafs fan! No wonder you see Binnington as a god.

Ryan O’Reilly, Jaden Schwartz, Alex Pietrangelo, Jay Bouwmeester, Colton Parayko, and Vladimir Tarasenko had just as much a hand in it as Binnington. Without any of them, we don’t win a Cup. It’s a team effort.

Were Binnington a mere “hothead”, like, for example, Cujo, I could root for him as a person. Binnington’s immensely talented and a hell of a goalie, but he’s not a hothead; like Belfour (who was also immensely talented) before him, he’s a f***ing whiny baby who can’t control himself and has to “hype up the team” by acting out in a tantrum, so much so that, lest we forget, even Berube had enough and told him to rein it in.

You want to root for a lesser Belfour and die on that hill, be my guest. I’m going to support the name on the front - and hopefully we get another first round pick in the process.

 

[Mike Liut]

A deal around Woll and a futures piece wouldn't shock me. We could also sign a quality vet if we think Ellis or Zherenko will be ready soon.

I’d ask for Woll, Kneis and 1st for Binny

 

[TK 421]

There's one current Blue I have an extreme emotional attachment to and I would be really upset to see him traded.....that player is Jordan Binnington. He's still a great PO goalie and a good mentor for Hofer so I see no reason to give up that 1/2 combo. He's a rare archetype and you don't just throw that away while he's still performing even if you may not see the PO's in a given year.