Yep. I’m out until there’s actually something new to discuss
LOL see ya at the draft
Blake Extended for 3 Years
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LOL see ya at the draft
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
- 23,189
- 24,095
For those still not paying attention.
These were the rankings of time on ice per game for ROOKIES this season. Keep in mind this is out of 244 rookies in the league.
Powerplay
Tkachev 8th
Durzi 10th
Kaliyev 19th
Spence 28th
Fagemo 46th
Byfield 94th
Kupari 98th
Turcotte 116th
Moverare 145th
Strand 172nd
Even Strength
Spence 10th
Durzi 16th
Moverare 36th
Strand 51st
Fagemo 104th
Byfield 118th
Tkachev 120th
Turcotte 130th
Kupari 134th
Kaliyev 135th
Short Handed
Moverare 18th
Durzi 19th
Strand 31st
Spence 60th
Kupari 61st
Fagemo 77th
Turcotte 109th
Byfield 122nd
Kaliyev, Tkachev tied for 155th (0:00)
Total
Spence 7th
Durzi 9th
Moverare 34th
Strand 56th
Tkachev 82nd
Fagemo 89th
Kaliyev 114th
Byfield 126th
Kupari 134th
Turcotte 142nd
The defensemen understandably have more minutes. Tkachev had good powerplay time in his handful of games. But Kaliyev was in the back half of even strength time compared to all rookies. He had more powerplay time compared to most, and was second among all rookies with 6 powerplay goals. But, he was clearly not given the same opportunity at even strength. And even then, his shot also could have used more time on the top powerplay unit.
Byfield is in the lower 2/3rds of powerplay ice time, despite the size and hands he could have at least tried to contribute to one of the worst powerplays in the league. He's also pretty close to being in the bottom half of ice time among rookies at even strength.
The Kings top two forward prospects were either straddling or beyond being in the lower half of ice time for rookie forwards per game.
You can pick and choose other random prospects to try to build a particular narrative or to obfuscate the issue, but it just reinforces either your lack of understanding or lack of willingness to acknowledge that a team which spent the past few years rebuilding isn't utilizing the players (namely the forwards) acquired during that rebuild. And I assure you it doesn't look much prettier if you filter out only the forwards.
These were the rankings of time on ice per game for ROOKIES this season. Keep in mind this is out of 244 rookies in the league.
Powerplay
Tkachev 8th
Durzi 10th
Kaliyev 19th
Spence 28th
Fagemo 46th
Byfield 94th
Kupari 98th
Turcotte 116th
Moverare 145th
Strand 172nd
Even Strength
Spence 10th
Durzi 16th
Moverare 36th
Strand 51st
Fagemo 104th
Byfield 118th
Tkachev 120th
Turcotte 130th
Kupari 134th
Kaliyev 135th
Short Handed
Moverare 18th
Durzi 19th
Strand 31st
Spence 60th
Kupari 61st
Fagemo 77th
Turcotte 109th
Byfield 122nd
Kaliyev, Tkachev tied for 155th (0:00)
Total
Spence 7th
Durzi 9th
Moverare 34th
Strand 56th
Tkachev 82nd
Fagemo 89th
Kaliyev 114th
Byfield 126th
Kupari 134th
Turcotte 142nd
The defensemen understandably have more minutes. Tkachev had good powerplay time in his handful of games. But Kaliyev was in the back half of even strength time compared to all rookies. He had more powerplay time compared to most, and was second among all rookies with 6 powerplay goals. But, he was clearly not given the same opportunity at even strength. And even then, his shot also could have used more time on the top powerplay unit.
Byfield is in the lower 2/3rds of powerplay ice time, despite the size and hands he could have at least tried to contribute to one of the worst powerplays in the league. He's also pretty close to being in the bottom half of ice time among rookies at even strength.
The Kings top two forward prospects were either straddling or beyond being in the lower half of ice time for rookie forwards per game.
You can pick and choose other random prospects to try to build a particular narrative or to obfuscate the issue, but it just reinforces either your lack of understanding or lack of willingness to acknowledge that a team which spent the past few years rebuilding isn't utilizing the players (namely the forwards) acquired during that rebuild. And I assure you it doesn't look much prettier if you filter out only the forwards.
Sol
Smile
- Jun 30, 2017
- 25,052
- 21,322
That's what you're supposed to do. Granted I think the prospects have been pretty shitty, but Id rather have them be shitty and HOPE they can figure it out, rather than old geezers who have one skate hung up already who are obviously never going to get better or change because of their age.
They seriously need to address the Kopitar situation, and I doubt Todd the Fraud will do nothing about it.
Sol
Smile
- Jun 30, 2017
- 25,052
- 21,322
Very sexy summary. I couldn't have said this better. This is pretty much why I dislike the team a lot and have very little trust in it. The situation they allowed and chose to get into is very counter-intuitive.
Kopitar is old and not good. Danault outplayed him a lot. Kopitar is going to be worse next season, just let that sink in for some delusional posters on here. Doughty was good before the Olympic announcement. I dont expect him to be as good either. Quick is just better than Petersen so I dont think theres a legitimate argument to be made for Petersen. I agreed with Todd on taking Quick over Cal.
There is something very dangerously wrong with the way the team is operating and if they dont seriously address their approach then this rebuild will need another rebuild. We will be heading into Edmonton territory.
The scary thing is. Everyone thought, including me, that the Vets would pave the way and teach the younger players how to be better. I was hopeful of that. But now I realize I forgot that hopeful thought would be contingent on the fact that the management would give priority to the younger players. That has not happened. Now we are stuck with old vets eating a ton of icetime, and mediocre prospects. This situation is very bad. and will UNDOUBTEDLY get worse if they don't change their approach drastically.
At least the best part about being a black hole team and being in a nonstop rebuild is that the Kings will likely draft a generational player at some point. I'd kill to have a player like McDavid. Watching a guy like that night in and night out is far better than any kind of Cup to me.
Last edited:
Rick Knickleback
Registered User
Just eat the f****** bullet next year. Make Anze your 3rd line center and play the kids. Isn’t the ‘23 draft supposed to be deep? What’s the worst that could happen?
The goal is not to surprise the experts with a playoff team and then get bounced in the first round. Build a winner!
The goal is not to surprise the experts with a playoff team and then get bounced in the first round. Build a winner!
Great breakdown on this KP.
Also, I know there's going to be a lot of "they've got to earn it" talk but to that I say this...why? At what cost? Holding them back because of an arbitrary decision got them 7 extra games this year. If Byfield never matures beyond what we saw this season because of a lack of being allowed to make mistakes and grow, were those games worth it?
Bottom line, the Kings pipeline was thought to be one of, if not the very best in the entire NHL. For one reason or several, we're seeing that isn't even close to being true. Look at Detroit, Anaheim, Ottawa, Minnesota, Buffalo, or Florida and ask whether they'd trade their first round picks from 2019 and 2020 with the Kings picks from those years? Hell, do you think Columbus would trade their pick from 2021 for BOTH of those picks?
This isn't to say that Byfield or Turcotte won't turn out, but at a certain point the Kings have to give them the chance to. I said, prior to this year, that the Kings needed to either move Turcotte or let him play because he was just toiling and losing value. Well, it didn't get any better this year with them doing this same things with him. I sure hope they don't do the same with Byfield.
Axl Rhoadz
Binky distributor
- Apr 5, 2011
- 5,343
- 3,959
Then all you armchair-GMs would then be bitching about how the team sucks and they should be a playoff team at this point, etc. It never ends, you guys will always find something to complain about....guaran-f***ing-teed!
Meanwhile, that was a fun season...7+ months of being fully engaged in this team for me...thank you Kings! Hoping we get better next year...
Love this part "You can pick and choose other random prospects to try to build a particular narrative or to obfuscate the issue," Then builds a particular narrative with "that a team which spent the past few years rebuilding isn't utilizing the players (namely the forwards) acquired during that rebuild."
It's a great breakdown post.....but just like you say they aren't utilizing them, I will say they are doing what every other goddamn team in the league does....evidenced by......THE MIDDLE OF THE PACK NUMBERS YOU JUST POSTED.....
I would love to see these numbers stretching back 5-10 years etc see how they adjust....I think a shit ton of people would be very surprised.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Okay sure, let's look at Lundell vs. Kaliyev.
One was being utilized as a 3C on one of the best teams in the league--his projected role at the draft was a 2C/3C, he's probably more looking 1C now, but regardless, he was getting great time and great linemates on a stellar team. His icetime is understandable, but he wasn't being held back, given the guys in front of him were absolutely crushing it.
The other projects as a top-six scoring wing. He was used as a bottom-six, bottom line 'scoring' wing. He was also the Kings leader in PP goals, but was rarely used there. Somehow, the team thought the guys in front of him were all crushing it, and were loathe to give him playing time over guys who hadn't scored goals in months.
There is a discrepancy when the best offensive team and one of the best teams in the league can find prime minutes for their rookie while a team with absolute rock bottom offense struggling and scrounging for offensive wingers buries their top PP scorer on the bottom line and that's the best used rookie forward that you're basing your entire rant around.
Below middle of the pack #s...for lottery picks...on a team that wasn't supposed to make the playoffs and had horrendous issues scoring.
You go ahead and keep on keeping on, these arguments have worn circles in the dirt, at this point it's actually funnier than anything that we keep finding different looks for how misused the rookies were and each one gets worse.
You gotta explain this, Lundell had prime minutes for their rookie, as a 3C (your words not mine) but Kaliyev you say wasn't utilized correctly because you know, bottom six (just like Lundell) yet he was (according to KPs numbers) top 20 in PP ice time per game......
Sounds like they utilized him correctly to me.
I wonder if their total ice time had anything to do with Lundell playing 15 fewer games than Kaliyev?
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
- 23,189
- 24,095
I wonder if he was sat 15 fewer games than Kaliyev because the Panthers were worried about playing him and didn't want to ruin his confidence?
No. It was mostly illness and injury.
You mean they weren't worried after he only put up 7 points in his first 18 games as a rookie while averaging 17.5 minutes per game? They just let him play and learn on his way to 37 points in his next 47 games? What were they thinking!?
bland
Registered User
- Jul 1, 2004
- 8,242
- 12,606
They weren't chasing the playoffs.
Oh, wait...
If the pro team were a contender, and you had roster space for one or two kids to come in on a cap-strapped team, yeah, this year's policy would make sense. Instill competition while not harming the results.
Problem is that they are still treating the Cup core like they are contenders. Nobody in the organization has the desire to look them in the eye and tell them that they are no longer top tier players, and that they have lost their PP privileges. Prospects aren't developing their skills and learning how to adapt them at the NHL pace in their given roles, they are still being given the hypocratic oath style of "first do no harm then lets see".
The Kings can't keep adding to the middle of the roster. If they are serious about contending they need top tier players AND specialists. That's the least likely path to success, though it would satisfy the oldies and a certain portion of the fan base.
If they hadn't bottomed out maybe that's the way to go, but this management group needs to change their mission statement, embrace the rebuild and understand that it is actually a luxury in the cap era to have this much control over your roster.
Maybe, but he averaged 15 minutes in regular season, and 11 in the playoffs......says a lot about how much they trusted him....right?
Kinda the exact point I was making about the idiotic argument that Byfield only played less than 500 minutes,
Thank you for agreeing.
Are you trying to say that Lundell missing that time because of injury and being ill but then playing nearly 18 minutes a game outside of that is the same as how the Kings used Byfield this year? If Byfield played the same amount of games as Lundell he'd have played nearly 300 fewer minutes. You don't think that's significant time?
He averaged 15 min per game,not 18, and not anywhere close to what I was saying
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
- 23,189
- 24,095
Just for fun, I went back 5 seasons and looked at ALL rookies where they ranked by all teams. Keep in mind that this is a ranking out of 1050 records. Note, this is per NHL.com, looking at all rookies from 2017-18 season to this season. I did NOT have "sum results" in the filter. For one, summing results removes the team (and it's just easier to look for LAK instead of reading each and every name), but also, summing results could skew numbers if a prospect was considered a rookie for multiple seasons so you'll see some repeats. With repeats, I'll put the season to go along with the ranking.
I also omitted seasons with multiple teams (like Kale Clague's "rookie" season which is part LA and part MTL, or Trevor Moore's "rookie" season which was spent in Toronto and LA).
Average TOI/Game
Spence 23rd
Durzi 25th
Mikey Anderson 59th
Roy 62nd (2019-20)
Clague 90th (2020-21)
Roy 95th (2018-19)
Bjornfot 111th (2020-21)
Moverare 140th
Walker 210th
Strand 220th (2021-22)
Iafallo 232nd
Byfield 241st (2020-21)
Grundstrom 245th
Vilardi 264th (2020-21)
Kaliyev 265th (2020-21)
Clague 275th (2019-20)
Fantenberg 303rd
Tkachev 339th
LaDue 344th
Lizotte 348th
Strand 362nd (2020-21)
Fagemo 375th
Anderson-Dolan 400th (2020-21)
Kempe 422nd
Rymsha 429th
Bjornfot 462nd (2019-20)
Vilardi 471st (2019-20)
Brickley 472nd (2018-19)
Grundstrom 484th
Kaliyev 494th (2021-22)
Byfield 548th (2021-22)
Prokhorkin 556th
Kupari 586th (2021-22)
MacDermid 601st
Anderson Dolan 603rd (2018-19)
Kupari 618th (2020-21)
Turcotte 643rd
Luff 654th
Brickley 698th (2017-18)
Anderson-Dolan 765th (2019-20)
Brodzinski 844th
Amadio 870th
Wagner 901st
Rempal 914th
Auger 960th
Crescenzi 974th
A summary of the data:
- In the past 5 seasons, the Kings have 46 records, but have played 35 rookies. There were 696 unique rookies played in the past 5 seasons. Dividing by 31 (I'm not including Seattle in this exercise since they've only played one season and thus skew the numbers far more than they'd contribute); this averages 22 rookies per team. So, by raw number of rookies played, the Kings have played a significant higher number of rookies compared to the expected average.
- Most of the players with multiple rookie seasons saw an increase of ice time. Of note, however, Kaliyev and Byfield both had reduced minutes this year compared to last (Kaliyev from 265th to 494th; Byfield from 241st to 548th). This season, Byfield's TOI ranking is closer to Amadio's rookie season than Austin Strand's time this year (which also correlates to ice time. Strand averaged 15:17 this season; Byfield averaged 12:09 this season; Amadio averaged 9:19 in his rookie season). So you're all welcome for the meme of saying that Byfield was Amadio'd.
- Anderson Dolan also saw a decrease in ice time between his first year and second year, before getting a higher average his third year. So... I guess Byfield and Kaliyev have a lot to look forward to.
- Byfield's average time on ice ranking this season is below the median (525th). Including all other rookies after him on the Kings, that makes 16 records below the line. Kaliyev this season is a bit above it.
- Iafallo had the highest ranking of rookie forwards among the Kings prospects, and he was 232nd. He's 55th among all forward rookies in that time span. So, you could say all the other teams played 1, and 24 teams played 2 rookie forwards more than the Kings played their most played rookie forward.
I'm sure we can do more fun exercises to point out how the Kings deploy forward prospects, but for a team that spent a few years rebuilding, color me unimpressed.
Edit: Bolded some key points.
I also omitted seasons with multiple teams (like Kale Clague's "rookie" season which is part LA and part MTL, or Trevor Moore's "rookie" season which was spent in Toronto and LA).
Average TOI/Game
Spence 23rd
Durzi 25th
Mikey Anderson 59th
Roy 62nd (2019-20)
Clague 90th (2020-21)
Roy 95th (2018-19)
Bjornfot 111th (2020-21)
Moverare 140th
Walker 210th
Strand 220th (2021-22)
Iafallo 232nd
Byfield 241st (2020-21)
Grundstrom 245th
Vilardi 264th (2020-21)
Kaliyev 265th (2020-21)
Clague 275th (2019-20)
Fantenberg 303rd
Tkachev 339th
LaDue 344th
Lizotte 348th
Strand 362nd (2020-21)
Fagemo 375th
Anderson-Dolan 400th (2020-21)
Kempe 422nd
Rymsha 429th
Bjornfot 462nd (2019-20)
Vilardi 471st (2019-20)
Brickley 472nd (2018-19)
Grundstrom 484th
Kaliyev 494th (2021-22)
Byfield 548th (2021-22)
Prokhorkin 556th
Kupari 586th (2021-22)
MacDermid 601st
Anderson Dolan 603rd (2018-19)
Kupari 618th (2020-21)
Turcotte 643rd
Luff 654th
Brickley 698th (2017-18)
Anderson-Dolan 765th (2019-20)
Brodzinski 844th
Amadio 870th
Wagner 901st
Rempal 914th
Auger 960th
Crescenzi 974th
A summary of the data:
- In the past 5 seasons, the Kings have 46 records, but have played 35 rookies. There were 696 unique rookies played in the past 5 seasons. Dividing by 31 (I'm not including Seattle in this exercise since they've only played one season and thus skew the numbers far more than they'd contribute); this averages 22 rookies per team. So, by raw number of rookies played, the Kings have played a significant higher number of rookies compared to the expected average.
- Most of the players with multiple rookie seasons saw an increase of ice time. Of note, however, Kaliyev and Byfield both had reduced minutes this year compared to last (Kaliyev from 265th to 494th; Byfield from 241st to 548th). This season, Byfield's TOI ranking is closer to Amadio's rookie season than Austin Strand's time this year (which also correlates to ice time. Strand averaged 15:17 this season; Byfield averaged 12:09 this season; Amadio averaged 9:19 in his rookie season). So you're all welcome for the meme of saying that Byfield was Amadio'd.
- Anderson Dolan also saw a decrease in ice time between his first year and second year, before getting a higher average his third year. So... I guess Byfield and Kaliyev have a lot to look forward to.
- Byfield's average time on ice ranking this season is below the median (525th). Including all other rookies after him on the Kings, that makes 16 records below the line. Kaliyev this season is a bit above it.
- Iafallo had the highest ranking of rookie forwards among the Kings prospects, and he was 232nd. He's 55th among all forward rookies in that time span. So, you could say all the other teams played 1, and 24 teams played 2 rookie forwards more than the Kings played their most played rookie forward.
I'm sure we can do more fun exercises to point out how the Kings deploy forward prospects, but for a team that spent a few years rebuilding, color me unimpressed.
Edit: Bolded some key points.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
"what an idiotic point. I'm going to use it myself" sums up this whole page of argument for you. Probably want to stop while you're behind, you just keep supporting everyone else's thoughts when it's clear you're not intending to...
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
The funny thing about the JAD example is that he was THEN buried in the AHL, lol. Even better.
Very nice illustration but it's completely wasted on crayon eaters, no amount of evidence is good enough for people that have made up their minds.
You would think 'the Kings' development is suspect' is amongst the least contentious items on this forum but here we are showing literal years of data points.
Thanks for the data, this is actually better than I thought. They really put Kaliyev in a position to succeed from that data, playing to his strengths. This pretty much puts to rest the idea that the Kings don't put the young guys on the PP because they have 5 there in the top 25% league-wide as far as rookies go. I think they should play them even more there and give them extended looks, but they are putting young guys in key spots a lot more than other teams as evidenced here. I mean, every single rookie forward that came up is in the top half percentile in PP ice time. Heck, specialty teams in general as the SH times are decent as well.
It's also a great illustration of just how heavily they leaned on the veteran lines this year 5v5. I'm actually fine with how Kupari and Kaliyev were deployed for the most part this year, they are specialty players who need to round out their games. Byfield needs to be out there way more at even strength, even though he was shitty at times. He's an all-around guy who needs to learn all situations.
Those numbers for the defense are beyond impressive, though. To roll out rookies like they are vets, along with guys who are barely old enough to drink is brave. Add in major injuries to the vets (sans Maatta) and still have the same goals against as the f***ing Avalanche? That's nails right there. An add-on the back end along with a healthy Doughty could easily mean a top-5 D team next year. But yeah, those forwards... Hoping to see only one acquisition up front. With Brown retiring and hopefully AA gone, it's sink or swim time for them.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
I mean, the d-men were literally their only options. Durzi and Spence were the only OFD healthy in the entire organization so I'm far less enthused. They let them roll with it of course but you can see how they felt as guys came back, I mean they benched Spence for Spurgeon. Fagemo's usage all around was encouraging--but he only played 4 games. In those 4 games they rolled out the red carpet for him though, which is why the treatment of the other forwards is so god damn baffling. Tkachev, of course, also only played 4 games before being apparently shot into space.
Beyond Kaliyev, you have to go to the 40th percentile to find a 2nd overall pick.
This is an incredibly optimistic reading IMO.
I am very happy about how they let Durzi keep stepping up to the plate, though, given how flawed he is as a player.
Sol
Smile
- Jun 30, 2017
- 25,052
- 21,322
Yeah, its a bit optimistic, but the numbers don't really lie. Those defense numbers are impressive whether they had other options or not, but there is this: they didn't jam Stetcher down our throats, even though he played pretty well. Wolanin was a vet option, yet he wasn't brought up (unless he was injured?) They could have easily snagged another vet, but they didn't. So I give them some credit for rolling with the rookies there when they had several outs they could have used to not do so.
Tkachev just looked horrible in the NHL, I can see why he was down. Even in the AHL you can see he doesn't really have it, although he was a tease in the preseason. Agree on Fagemo. They could have gave Kaliyev a little more, but I was fine with it. Kupari they really stuck with, even when they had all kinds of reasons to send him down. Martin Frk lit up the AHL again, they had every opportunity to bring him up to replace a young guy and they didn't. Literally the only player I think they really crapped the bed with was Byfield, and unfortunately, he's the most important one.
I just don't see any overall gross mismanagement of the rookies/youth this year, and they put them in a lot more than almost all other NHL franchises. In the past, the Kings would have picked up journeymen to address a large amount of injuries, but to their credit this year, they didn't. Think about how many guys saw the grind this year and learned how to deal with it. The most impressive thing about Arty was those 80 games, he's never done anything like that before.
Far from perfect, but it's not doom and gloom. I'm saving that for next year if Blake doesn't consolidate some prospects into some younger, key pieces. It's a waste to let prospects languish then trade them on the cheap. The biggest concern for me wasn't so much deployment, but that none of our lauded prospects could outplay Lizotte or Moore this year. Taking nothing away from either of those two, they were fantastic and earned every bit of it, but I expected at least one of our higher-end guys to step up and force the coach's hand.
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