Buffalo Bills Bills (6-2) vs. Vikings (7-1), November 13, 1PM ET: 'Both Teams Can Win A Trade' edition

[Rowley Birkin]

I do. I want Allen’s runs to be a change up, not the short yardage go to play.

Go look at the last group of Super Bowl winners. None of them had running RBs as their primary short yardage option. And before we get into the “Allen is different” argument, Michael Vick was different, and Lamar Jackson is different. The Bills need a grind it out runner who doesn’t wear 17.

Just catching up with some of these replies... Needless to say i totally agree with this. Couldn't have put it better.

Assuming Singletary walks in the offseason & Cook continues positive development... I think we can certainly say a power back is one of the bigger team needs. Day 2 would seem the most obvious point to make a move.

I do worry that there's nobody there for the remainder of this season. As i said above - it's a relatively minor concern - but it's a concern at that.

One thing for sure - I'd be doing my reasearch on any available FAs to fill that role in the short term instead of obsessing about signing OBJ.

Click to read more...

 

[Jim Bob]

So, we had a speed back, needed a power back, and traded for another speed back?

They don't need a power back as long as they continue to use 17 as a smash mouth QB.

I'm not concerned about Singletary's speed, or even trading for Hines. The Bills have a RB by committee approach. Singletary and Cook filled roles. But the short yardage role is still open. Josh Allen can't be the 3rd and 2 running back.

I think the Bills disagree that 17 with 13 pushing him can't be the primary option for a 3rd & 2 play.

 

[JLewyB]

They don't need a power back as long as they continue to use 17 as a smash mouth QB.


I think the Bills disagree that 17 with 13 pushing him can't be the primary option for a 3rd & 2 play.

I dont think we run on 3rd and 2 anymore. And Zach Moss was never the answer if we ever considered it.

 

[Jim Bob]

I dont think we run on 3rd and 2 anymore. And Zach Moss was never the answer if we ever considered it.

I would love to see the stats on what Dorsey has called this year in 3rd & 4th and short.

 

[Dubi Doo]

Why can't Gilliam be our power back if need be? I asked this question earlier, but didn't get a response. He's a really good fullback. I know it's a bit outdated to run FBs, but using him on third and 1 when it's a 4 down situation isn't a bad idea, imo.

I agree with others that I want the ball in Allen's hands a strong majority of time on do-or-punt downs.

 

[Jim Bob]

Why can't Gilliam be our power back if need be? I asked this question earlier, but didn't get a response. He's a really good fullback. I know it's a bit outdated to run FBs, but using him on third and 1 when it's a 4 down situation isn't a bad idea, imo.

I agree with others that I want the ball in Allen's hands a strong majority of time on do-or-punt downs.

With 13 pushing 17 in 3rd & 1 situations and the lower risk for a fumble on that play, why go away from it?

 

[Dubi Doo]

With 13 pushing 17 in 3rd & 1 situations and the lower risk for a fumble on that play, why go away from it?

I like that option on do-or-die downs, but if we have two downs to gain a yard- then I'd like to see them try to mix Gilliam in to see if he can be productive in that role.

I'm not overly concerned Allen would get injured on a QB sneak, but weirder things have happened, so lowering the odds of injury, especially during the regular season- is a good goal to strive for even if it only slightly lowers those odds.

I also really like Gilliam, and am interested to see what he can do in those situations.

 

[kirby11]

I like that option on do-or-die downs, but if we have two downs to gain a yard- then I'd like to see them try to mix Gilliam in to see if he can be productive in that role.

I'm not overly concerned Allen would get injured on a QB sneak, but weirder things have happened, so lowering the odds of injury, especially during the regular season- is a good goal to strive for even if it only slightly lowers those odds.

I also really like Gilliam, and am interested to see what he can do in those situations.

IIRC they used Gilliam on 2nd or 3rd and 1 a couple of times last year and he picked up at least one first down.

 

[Jim Bob]

Public funding for Titans' new stadium surpasses total for Bills' new home

Public funding for #Titans’ new stadium surpasses total for #Bills’ new home:

billswire.usatoday.com

 

[Der Jaeger]

I just don’t agree at all on any level. For a lot of reasons. A traditional running back or power running back is contrary to our team’s strengths, the modern nfl, Allen.

We run very little. We have a historically good offense right now. The answer isn’t to run more.

We have a franchise player. The ball should go to him, not a power running back in critical situations.

The chiefs shouldn’t go to a RB on critical 3rd downs. The bills shouldn’t. It’s wild to think otherwise. When the bills or chiefs failed to convert last year, it was when they took the ball out of their QBs hands.


And the “last Super Bowl winners” argument is irrelevant. We run a different offense. Why in the world does it matter what they did? But for fun, here is what the rams did on 3rd or 4th down with 3 or less yards to go:

Pass (success)
Pass (failed)
Run (failed)
Kupp run (success)
Pass (success)


So out of five times, they went a RB one time and it failed. The other four times, they kept the ball in the hands of their best players and converted 3/4 times. So, no they did not use a power back to any success to convert short yardage situations. And the bills have a much better passing game, with a much better qb.

You keep the ball in Allen’s hands (throwing or running) 99% of the time when it matters. I am surprised anyone is arguing for something different. The dude has shown wild success for conversions when it matters on the big stages

You're writing as if Allen is the unique player who can't be stopped. The league figures players out. The coaches are smarter collectively than a player is good.

Michael Vick was once unstoppable. Then Monte Kiffin figured out how to take away his legs. Everyone copied him, and Vick became less the unstoppable QB.

The day is coming when some defensive coordinator is going to figure out Allen, and it'll get copied, and used against the Bills.

It won't happen to his passing, because QBs throwing from the pocket works. But someone will figure out the running part of Allen's game. And when it happens, the team won't have the ability to hand it to a bell cow runner and get 2-3 tough yards, another proven method of moving the ball.

I hope it doesn't happen in the playoffs.

They don't need a power back as long as they continue to use 17 as a smash mouth QB.


I think the Bills disagree that 17 with 13 pushing him can't be the primary option for a 3rd & 2 play.

There's a huge difference between a 3rd and 1 or 3rd and inches, where that play works every time, like it did with Tom Brady.... and a 3rd and 2, where LBs have time to fill and push against the A gaps. The Bills need something aside from that play as soon as the play goes beyond 1 yard to go.

 

[Zman5778]

There's a huge difference between a 3rd and 1 or 3rd and inches, where that play works every time, like it did with Tom Brady.... and a 3rd and 2, where LBs have time to fill and push against the A gaps. The Bills need something aside from that play as soon as the play goes beyond 1 yard to go.

We do. Jet sweeps. Off tackle runs. Short passing. WR screens. TE screens.

I think what you're really overlooking here is that a power back still needs competent blocking up front. There is zero doubt in my mind that the one weakness this team has is run blocking. A power back would be wasted behind this line that can't power block.

 

[Jim Bob]

 

[Zman5778]

I agree that the Bills OL isn't great a run blocking. But a 6-2/240 RB can pick up 2 yards with even just a couple double team blocks on the inside. The Bills could use that type of player. Doesn't need to be great, just a rotational back that can do that one thing the Bills need.

You saw how many times Singletary got hit in the backfield last week, right?

I don't care how big the back is......if he's not agile enough to slip a tackle, he's not going anywhere.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You're writing as if Allen is the unique player who can't be stopped. The league figures players out. The coaches are smarter collectively than a player is good.

Michael Vick was once unstoppable. Then Monte Kiffin figured out how to take away his legs. Everyone copied him, and Vick became less the unstoppable QB.

The day is coming when some defensive coordinator is going to figure out Allen, and it'll get copied, and used against the Bills.

It won't happen to his passing, because QBs throwing from the pocket works. But someone will figure out the running part of Allen's game. And when it happens, the team won't have the ability to hand it to a bell cow runner and get 2-3 tough yards, another proven method of moving the ball.

I hope it doesn't happen in the playoffs.

There's a huge difference between a 3rd and 1 or 3rd and inches, where that play works every time, like it did with Tom Brady.... and a 3rd and 2, where LBs have time to fill and push against the A gaps. The Bills need something aside from that play as soon as the play goes beyond 1 yard to go.

My point is you keep the ball in Allen’s hands—passing or running. I don’t think you run him every time. We pass plenty in that situation with success. But I do not like the idea of completely taking the ball out of his hand and giving it to a power running back.

I don’t understand the references to running quarterbacks like Vick or Lamar Jackson. That isn’t Allen or what I’m talking about. My opinion is the same for Mahomes or any franchise qb in today’s nfl—you do not take the ball out of their hand in big plays. That’s all.

Agree to disagree!

We do. Jet sweeps. Off tackle runs. Short passing. WR screens. TE screens.

I think what you're really overlooking here is that a power back still needs competent blocking up front. There is zero doubt in my mind that the one weakness this team has is run blocking. A power back would be wasted behind this line that can't power block.

Yea the debate isn’t a power running back vs Allen QB sneaking. It’s power running back vs what our offense does best. No one is suggesting Allen run every time

I think that’s a misunderstanding that I wasn’t very clear on!

 

[Der Jaeger]

For all, I've been a Bills fan for almost 40 years, and I interned with the organization in their scouting department in the 1990s. I love this team and I love Allen.

But I know how football works. There are 31 defensive coaching staffs who will each get a crack at stopping Allen. One day, someone if going to figure out how to limit his running game. Teams are already figuring out how to limit teams like the Chiefs.

Against KC, you beat Mahomes by making him be perfect. Rush with contain, drop 7, play a cover 4. It doesn't stop Mahomes but it limits their big plays. It also increases the snap count, and increases the chances of an offensive mistake. That's how the Bills beat them in two straight regular season games, and how the Bengals beat them in the AFC Championship game.

This isn't anything new. Belichick has beat far superior offenses in the Super Bowl three times as a coach (Bills in SB 25, Rams twice). Spagnuola and Fewell each figured out how to beat the Pats in the Super Bowl. Williams figured out how to beat Manning and the Colts in the SB. Tampa and Tennessee each came within a hair of beating the Rams in 1999. If I dug into playoffs in their entirety, we'd find plenty of cases, especially since 1990, where a coaching staff used a less talented defense to beat a star-studded offense.

Some DC is going to figure out how to limit Allen. It's going to happen. Then the ball will be in Dorsey's court. He better be able to make the next chess move.

Call me old school, but I know the game. Some team is going to try to do to Allen what teams are doing to Mahomes. It may take a year. But at some point, some DC is going to rush 3, spy Allen, drop into cover 4, and make the Bills run a 10 play drive down the field. The best way to counter that is to just run dives and iso runs right into the heart of the defense, until you force the defense out of it. GB almost did that to Buffalo Sunday night, with a far less talented team.

Because of that, I wish Beane had traded for a depth offensive lineman and a power back.

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

 

[OkimLom]

For all, I've been a Bills fan for almost 40 years, and I interned with the organization in their scouting department in the 1990s. I love this team and I love Allen.

But I know how football works. There are 31 defensive coaching staffs who will each get a crack at stopping Allen. One day, someone if going to figure out how to limit his running game. Teams are already figuring out how to limit teams like the Chiefs.

Against KC, you beat Mahomes by making him be perfect. Rush with contain, drop 7, play a cover 4. It doesn't stop Mahomes but it limits their big plays. It also increases the snap count, and increases the chances of an offensive mistake. That's how the Bills beat them in two straight regular season games, and how the Bengals beat them in the AFC Championship game.

This isn't anything new. Belichick has beat far superior offenses in the Super Bowl three times as a coach (Bills in SB 25, Rams twice). Spagnuola and Fewell each figured out how to beat the Pats in the Super Bowl. Williams figured out how to beat Manning and the Colts in the SB. Tampa and Tennessee each came within a hair of beating the Rams in 1999. If I dug into playoffs in their entirety, we'd find plenty of cases, especially since 1990, where a coaching staff used a less talented defense to beat a star-studded offense.

Some DC is going to figure out how to limit Allen. It's going to happen. Then the ball will be in Dorsey's court. He better be able to make the next chess move.

Call me old school, but I know the game. Some team is going to try to do to Allen what teams are doing to Mahomes. It may take a year. But at some point, some DC is going to rush 3, spy Allen, drop into cover 4, and make the Bills run a 10 play drive down the field. The best way to counter that is to just run dives and iso runs right into the heart of the defense, until you force the defense out of it. GB almost did that to Buffalo Sunday night, with a far less talented team.

Because of that, I wish Beane had traded for a depth offensive lineman and a power back.

While I think you have some valid and solid points, I feel you are making a case of wanting just an effective running game when the time comes when teams start to focus on stopping Allen, which can be accomplished by having backs like Singletary, Hines, Cook, in the backfield. I also feel you made more of a case of wanting to see Buffalo run the ball more, than you did for having reasons for a power back.

I don't think Buffalo has a weak running game because of the personnel makeup in the backfield. I think it's because our line is absolutely horrible in run-blocking, and no amount of "power back" ability (except MAYBE exceptional talented power backs) are going to make up for that level of run-blocking. I don't think Hunt moves the needle on the effectiveness of the line (which would've been my favorite option), and anybody else you would go after would be too expensive IMO to try and pry out of their current teams if you're looking to make up for that run-blocking. And for the record, I agree, looking for offensive lineman would've been a goal of mine at the TDL as well.

I think Dorsey needs to start to utilize the screen game more, and start to use the guys more effectively to utilize the "running game" off the passing attack. It's the one aspect of our team that I feel is very weak, and could help slow down teams in pass rushing Josh. I also think having the threat of Josh to run the ball while spreading out the offense is much more effective against the defense than putting in a power back in obvious short yardage situations when we have to bring everything in tight, but I'd like to see Josh take advantage on teams by passing more often.

 

[Dirty Dog]

For all, I've been a Bills fan for almost 40 years, and I interned with the organization in their scouting department in the 1990s. I love this team and I love Allen.

But I know how football works. There are 31 defensive coaching staffs who will each get a crack at stopping Allen. One day, someone if going to figure out how to limit his running game. Teams are already figuring out how to limit teams like the Chiefs.

Against KC, you beat Mahomes by making him be perfect. Rush with contain, drop 7, play a cover 4. It doesn't stop Mahomes but it limits their big plays. It also increases the snap count, and increases the chances of an offensive mistake. That's how the Bills beat them in two straight regular season games, and how the Bengals beat them in the AFC Championship game.

This isn't anything new. Belichick has beat far superior offenses in the Super Bowl three times as a coach (Bills in SB 25, Rams twice). Spagnuola and Fewell each figured out how to beat the Pats in the Super Bowl. Williams figured out how to beat Manning and the Colts in the SB. Tampa and Tennessee each came within a hair of beating the Rams in 1999. If I dug into playoffs in their entirety, we'd find plenty of cases, especially since 1990, where a coaching staff used a less talented defense to beat a star-studded offense.

Some DC is going to figure out how to limit Allen. It's going to happen. Then the ball will be in Dorsey's court. He better be able to make the next chess move.

Call me old school, but I know the game. Some team is going to try to do to Allen what teams are doing to Mahomes. It may take a year. But at some point, some DC is going to rush 3, spy Allen, drop into cover 4, and make the Bills run a 10 play drive down the field. The best way to counter that is to just run dives and iso runs right into the heart of the defense, until you force the defense out of it. GB almost did that to Buffalo Sunday night, with a far less talented team.

Because of that, I wish Beane had traded for a depth offensive lineman and a power back.

All good points! But I’d rather not change up our offense UNTIL teams show they can stop it. Which right now, they really can’t. If our offense doesn’t make a mistake, it isn’t getting stopped right now.

Once teams start shutting down Allen’s passing game, then I think we revisit all this.

But good post! You’re probably not wrong that one day defenses may come up with something to really slow down the Allens and Mahomes of the world

 

[Der Jaeger]

While I think you have some valid and solid points, I feel you are making a case of wanting just an effective running game when the time comes when teams start to focus on stopping Allen, which can be accomplished by having backs like Singletary, Hines, Cook, in the backfield. I also feel you made more of a case of wanting to see Buffalo run the ball more, than you did for having reasons for a power back.

I don't think Buffalo has a weak running game because of the personnel makeup in the backfield. I think it's because our line is absolutely horrible in run-blocking, and no amount of "power back" ability (except MAYBE exceptional talented power backs) are going to make up for that level of run-blocking. I don't think Hunt moves the needle on the effectiveness of the line (which would've been my favorite option), and anybody else you would go after would be too expensive IMO to try and pry out of their current teams if you're looking to make up for that run-blocking. And for the record, I agree, looking for offensive lineman would've been a goal of mine at the TDL as well.

I think Dorsey needs to start to utilize the screen game more, and start to use the guys more effectively to utilize the "running game" off the passing attack. It's the one aspect of our team that I feel is very weak, and could help slow down teams in pass rushing Josh. I also think having the threat of Josh to run the ball while spreading out the offense is much more effective against the defense than putting in a power back in obvious short yardage situations when we have to bring everything in tight, but I'd like to see Josh take advantage on teams by passing more often.

Though I'm a fan of a power run game, I do understand that it's not in the Bills best interest to become a run centric team right now. I do like having counters to what other teams do, though, and that's my point of wanting a power RB.

If I were a defensive coordinator, against the Bills, I'd go with a 3-3 nickel against the Bills. The DEs need to keep contain, the NT takes away the middle running lane. One LB spies Allen. 4 DBs in a Cover 4 to limit big plays. 3 players in underneath zone, and possibly man if Diggs is in the slot. Then I'd make Allen and the Bills run a 10 play, disciplined drive to score. No big plays, and limit Allen running.

It'd be nice if the Bills could have a back like Hunt in that 11 personnel, and just run against the 6 man front until the defense comes out of cover 4. I'm not sold that Singletary of Cook can grind those kinds of runs out.

 

[Dubi Doo]

What's everyone's prediction for the game?

The Jets have- what looks to be- a very good pass defense. It's hard to say for sure how good they are since they've mostly faced mediocre-to-bad offenses. Their defense plays fast and tough, though, so I don't expect the offense to dominate like we've seen in the past.

On offense- there really isn't much to worry about. Wilson can't be trusted to throw more than 25 times a game or else he'll turn the ball over. He has to play game manager at this point in his career- but he's not even good enough to do that very well yet. He's like an in between 2018-2019 Josh Allen that doesn't run nearly as well. They DID have a great running game with Breece Hall, but since he's injured- they've lost the focal point to their offense.

I don't foresee the Jets O putting up enough points to keep up with Buffalo. This is a big game, too, so I believe Buffalo will be hyper focused to win.

Final:
Buffalo-27
Jets-13

 

[Rowley Birkin]

They can't just keep giving it to Allen as a de facto running bsck.

Firstly - he's going to get hurt doing that sooner or later. If Allen doesn't take good care of himself (or the staff don't take good care of him) he can easily end up as Cam Newton 2.0... Allen is too good of a passer to waste (or certainly shorten) his career like that. He's too important to the success of this franchise.

Also - if you do want to give it to Allen... You need to have SOME type of decoy to make that pay off.

I'm far from one of those who demand the team is good at everything... I don't expect a Ravens or Browns-esque running game to materialise from nowhere. But i believe the best way of building a backfield is via a diverse committee. For the longest time i wanted dynamic pass catchers. We now have Hines & Cook which is great. But the balance has gone too much the other way - we need to have at least one bruiser in the mix.

 

[Dirty Dog]

What's everyone's prediction for the game?

The Jets have- what looks to be- a very good pass defense. It's hard to say for sure how good they are since they've mostly faced mediocre-to-bad offenses. Their defense plays fast and tough, though, so I don't expect the offense to dominate like we've seen in the past.

On offense- there really isn't much to worry about. Wilson can't be trusted to throw more than 25 times a game or else he'll turn the ball over. He has to play game manager at this point in his career- but he's not even good enough to do that very well yet. He's like an in between 2018-2019 Josh Allen that doesn't run nearly as well. They DID have a great running game with Breece Hall, but since he's injured- they've lost the focal point to their offense.

I don't foresee the Jets O putting up enough points to keep up with Buffalo. This is a big game, too, so I believe Buffalo will be hyper focused to win.

Final:
Buffalo-27
Jets-13

We seem to play down to the Jets’ level under McDermott! So I’m expecting a frustrating game where don’t pull away until the 4th quarter.

Let’s say, 17-13 at the end of the 3rd. We then go up 31-13 in the 4th. Then we give up a late TD to win 31-20

 

[brian_griffin]

That #20 jersey was so unused, it was growing Moss on it...

 

[Dubi Doo]

That #20 jersey was so unused, it was growing Moss on it...

Brian_Griffin is a dad confirmed.

 

[Jim Bob]