Bettman meeting with Ryan Smith, owner of Utah Jazz and Real Salt Lake (upd: Smith asks NHL to open expansion process)

[KevFu]

So we heard a rumor about Atlanta and Houston; and now we hear about Utah. Quebec remains.

And each of those cities fall into one of the four regions our divisions are configured in. Hmmm.

 

[GKJ]

So we heard a rumor about Atlanta and Houston; and now we hear about Utah. Quebec remains.

And each of those cities fall into one of the four regions our divisions are configured in. Hmmm.

Utah would have to be a central team given Arizona currently is too.

I think Bettman knows he is out of time in Arizona. No one wants that going on longer than it has to. And with Marty Walsh in the chat now, that will be another force to reckon with.

 

[StreetHawk]

Super interesting to me, I think ATL/Houston would be better business on the surface I truly think they will be expansion.
SLC would fit in nicely in my opinion and as much as I would not want the Yotes fans to lose a team I think Utah would embrace a franchise

But wouldn't the owner of the Jazz be the primary tenant of any new arena? If the new arena is city/state funded then the NHL needs to have a seat at the negotiation table before the financing is finalized and put up some money towards the building to match any contribution from the Jazz to get a fair share of Non-hockey revenues.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

But wouldn't the owner of the Jazz be the primary tenant of any new arena? If the new arena is city/state funded then the NHL needs to have a seat at the negotiation table before the financing is finalized and put up some money towards the building to match any contribution from the Jazz to get a fair share of Non-hockey revenues.

but Vivant is not a HOCKEY CENTRIC VENUE, Street, nor likely would a new venue, and then what becomes of Maverik Center and WVC in general.... which was my point nevermind the Existing Grizzlies franchise which switched leagues for 5 seasons and is still owned by the same group running them in WVC, which we've seen in Phoenix and Atlanta discussions over the years.... and in the Coyotes' case multiple venues like Glendale and potentially Tempe as we've seen from the Coyote centric thread there on BOH, WHICH was my points of contention for clarification purposes.

 

[voyageur]

Friedman's thoughts talk first about Marty Walsh, and specifically about the Arizona situation, which is something that the NHLPA would have a vested interest in because without a doubt the Coyotes are currently affecting the Salary Cap with their share of revenue.

Utah is an interesting option, in terms of geography because it makes Colorado less of an outlier. In terms of growth, the potential is greater than Houston for the game, because it cover a state or two. The soon to be Delta Centre is on the smaller side for venues, but still considerably larger than the Mullet, the luxury suites are the big ticket anyways...

A new rink for the Olympics would be exactly the kind of revenue boost the NHL could profit from, especially since 2030 would be 20 years between domestic Olympics for the league, and the spotlight on hockey.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Utah would have to be a central team given Arizona currently is too.

I think Bettman knows he is out of time in Arizona. No one wants that going on longer than it has to. And with Marty Walsh in the chat now, that will be another force to reckon with.

1. As has been mentioned elsewhere, Marty Walsh and the rest of the NHLPA have about 0.00000000% control over whether a team operates in Arizona or any other market.

2. I would like to think that after some 12 years of me and others explaining why the Coyotes are still in Arizona, it would sink in to people that they're not there because Gary Bettman is hell-bent on preserving some Sun Belt strategy, or preserving his legacy, or because he hates Canada, or any of the other bullshit claims that have been lobbed since he and the league, with the support of the other 3 major pro sports leagues, stepped in to prevent one James Balsillie and one Richard Rodier from circumventing the league's rules on ownership and franchise operation by having then-current owner Jerry Moyes put the team into bankruptcy, violating every agreement he had with the NHL to that point, for the express purpose of them buying the team and moving it to Hamilton in violation of every NHL rule and procedure long established regarding franchise relocation.

But, after ~12 years of trying to explain it and people continually ignoring it in favor of BETTMAN IS TEH DEBIL! I think I'm going to accept that those people are never going to listen to, much less understand, why the Coyotes are still in Arizona in 2023.

Friedman's thoughts talk first about Marty Walsh, and specifically about the Arizona situation, which is something that the NHLPA would have a vested interest in because without a doubt the Coyotes are currently affecting the Salary Cap with their share of revenue.

So what? There's no CBA-mandated "right" to have the salary cap increase, much less have it maximized for the players' benefit. If the Coyotes were in some other city, the salary cap would go up (good for players) which would put more pressure on other already low-revenue teams (not so good - especially ... at least one team in Canada falls in here, by its own admission of how its business plan is set up). Were the Coyotes somewhere else already generating all those sweet HRR dollars, the players would have their 2020-21 escrow debt paid off (good) and be headed right back for Escrow Hell as teams overspent on salaries with all that new found salary cap space + the escrow caps the players demanded. (That last part is really, really bad for the players going into a new CBA.)

Utah is an interesting option, in terms of geography because it makes Colorado less of an outlier. In terms of growth, the potential is greater than Houston for the game, because it cover a state or two. The soon to be Delta Centre is on the smaller side for venues, but still considerably larger than the Mullet, the luxury suites are the big ticket anyways...

The entire state of Utah is not showing up for NHL games. The realistic fan base for a franchise there is bounded by about Logan and Tremonton, around SLC and down to Provo, and then back up. Granted, that gets you about 2.7 million people, but then also consider that the University of Utah and Brigham Young University take in significant sports dollars themselves.

A new rink for the Olympics would be exactly the kind of revenue boost the NHL could profit from, especially since 2030 would be 20 years between domestic Olympics for the league, and the spotlight on hockey.

A new rink would require it to be filled with events on dates when hockey isn't being played there to be financially viable. Is there really that much demand for entertainment space in SLC and the "greater Utah area" that another arena would be built? If not, can the Delta Center Vivint Arena be set up to handle NHL hockey? After all the renovations that have taken place since 2002, I'd kind of be surprised if it can "easily" be configured for an NHL rink.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Also, Salt Lake is the favorite for the 2030 Olympics, which would mean they’re looking at new building.

Are they the favorites before or after bribes are considered?

 

[GKJ]

Are they the favorites before or after bribes are considered?

They might be the only ones to be able to afford to bribe them. There just aren’t that many viable locations even if the process was legitimate.

1. As has been mentioned elsewhere, Marty Walsh and the rest of the NHLPA have about 0.00000000% control over whether a team operates in Arizona or any other market.

2. I would like to think that after some 12 years of me and others explaining why the Coyotes are still in Arizona, it would sink in to people that they're not there because Gary Bettman is hell-bent on preserving some Sun Belt strategy, or preserving his legacy, or because he hates Canada, or any of the other bullshit claims that have been lobbed since he and the league, with the support of the other 3 major pro sports leagues, stepped in to prevent one James Balsillie and one Richard Rodier from circumventing the league's rules on ownership and franchise operation by having then-current owner Jerry Moyes put the team into bankruptcy, violating every agreement he had with the NHL to that point, for the express purpose of them buying the team and moving it to Hamilton in violation of every NHL rule and procedure long established regarding franchise relocation.

But, after ~12 years of trying to explain it and people continually ignoring it in favor of BETTMAN IS TEH DEBIL! I think I'm going to accept that those people are never going to listen to, much less understand, why the Coyotes are still in Arizona in 2023.


So what? There's no CBA-mandated "right" to have the salary cap increase, much less have it maximized for the players' benefit. If the Coyotes were in some other city, the salary cap would go up (good for players) which would put more pressure on other already low-revenue teams (not so good - especially ... at least one team in Canada falls in here, by its own admission of how its business plan is set up). Were the Coyotes somewhere else already generating all those sweet HRR dollars, the players would have their 2020-21 escrow debt paid off (good) and be headed right back for Escrow Hell as teams overspent on salaries with all that new found salary cap space + the escrow caps the players demanded. (That last part is really, really bad for the players going into a new CBA.)


The entire state of Utah is not showing up for NHL games. The realistic fan base for a franchise there is bounded by about Logan and Tremonton, around SLC and down to Provo, and then back up. Granted, that gets you about 2.7 million people, but then also consider that the University of Utah and Brigham Young University take in significant sports dollars themselves.


A new rink would require it to be filled with events on dates when hockey isn't being played there to be financially viable. Is there really that much demand for entertainment space in SLC and the "greater Utah area" that another arena would be built? If not, can the Delta Center Vivint Arena be set up to handle NHL hockey? After all the renovations that have taken place since 2002, I'd kind of be surprised if it can "easily" be configured for an NHL rink.

It ain’t nothing to do with Bettman with a hellbent agenda with Arizona. At some point you either have a building or you don’t, and if this Tempe vote falls through, they don’t. The PA may not have say over the standards in which one of the teams operates at this time, which means the next CBA go-round, they will because things players should be more concerned about, but we’re frankly too dumb not to, seems to be his agenda. This is happening now, it won’t happen again.

 

[StreetHawk]

but Vivant is not a HOCKEY CENTRIC VENUE, Street, nor likely would a new venue, and then what becomes of Maverik Center and WVC in general.... which was my point nevermind the Existing Grizzlies franchise which switched leagues for 5 seasons and is still owned by the same group running them in WVC, which we've seen in Phoenix and Atlanta discussions over the years.... and in the Coyotes' case multiple venues like Glendale and potentially Tempe as we've seen from the Coyote centric thread there on BOH, WHICH was my points of contention for clarification purposes.

It costs more to make an arena nhl compliant. When the Sharks passed on joining the Warriors at the Chase Center the design of the chase center was made to not accommodate an nhl team in the future.

So my point was that if SLC is building a new arena for the Games they would need to know whether it just fits the needs of the Jazz or an NHL team as well.

Barclays was originally budgeted serve as an nhl arena but due to the financial crisis, in order to save $200 mill, a re-design of the arena was done to exclude it from being a legit nhl arena.

Thus the city would need to know at the design stage who the main tenants of the arena are.

To have a new arena ready for Feb 2030, shovels have to hit the ground in early 2028 or late 2027 to have a buffer in case of delays. Zoning and approvals and anything else would require a final decision sometime in 2026 most likely. So about 3 years tops away from a final decision of who a new arena would primarily serve.

 

[HisIceness]

Salt Lake City has a metro population of about 1.1 million. How would this even work with an NBA and MLS franchise in the area?

 

[voyageur]

Are they the favorites before or after bribes are considered?

While it has been Russia, Korea, China, Italy. Time to go back to North America.

 

[KevFu]

Utah would have to be a central team given Arizona currently is too.

I think Bettman knows he is out of time in Arizona. No one wants that going on longer than it has to. And with Marty Walsh in the chat now, that will be another force to reckon with.

Yeah, they'd move Arizona to the Pacific and keep Utah Central as Colorado's rival. But you get the idea.... a Central, Mountain and two Eastern time zone markets are balance for the format.

 

[voyageur]

Yeah, they'd move Arizona to the Pacific and keep Utah Central as Colorado's rival. But you get the idea.... a Central, Mountain and two Eastern time zone markets are balance for the format.

How far ahead are you thinking?

You have one market in Quebec which probably doesn't get the votes to get in.

You have one market in Atlanta that doesn't have an ownership group or an arena.

You have a potential owner with exclusive right to the arena in Houston, who doesn't think an NHL franchise is worth that much.

I think you are getting a little too excited about expansion...relocation is quite likely the next move for the NHL if the Tempe deal falls through.

 

[KevFu]

Are they the favorites before or after bribes are considered?

There's hardly been any bids to host the Winter Olympics. Eight cities bid on 2010 when Vancouver won. FOUR cities bid on 2022 and 2026 COMBINED.

Salt Lake City has a metro population of about 1.1 million. How would this even work with an NBA and MLS franchise in the area?

People are talking about KANSAS CITY which has the most expensive teams (NFL, MLB) and MLS. Kansas City is a very small market to have four of the five.

Utah has two of the "cheapest" three teams to support (MLS is the cheapest, NHL then NBA). But if you're talking about "competition with other sports" than the city everyone should be talking about is San Diego.

 

[GKJ]

Yeah, they'd move Arizona to the Pacific and keep Utah Central as Colorado's rival. But you get the idea.... a Central, Mountain and two Eastern time zone markets are balance for the format.

Arizona is already in the central so they don’t need to do anything if they go to Utah

 

[KevFu]

How far ahead are you thinking?

You have one market in Quebec which probably doesn't get the votes to get in.

You have one market in Atlanta that doesn't have an ownership group or an arena.

You have a potential owner with exclusive right to the arena in Houston, who doesn't think an NHL franchise is worth that much.

I think you are getting a little too excited about expansion...relocation is quite likely the next move for the NHL if the Tempe deal falls through.

I feel like, every time expansion is a topic, I tend to talk "big picture" with no set timeline, talking about "in the next decade or so" and then real life takes even longer than that.

Remember when we heard about the "Markham/Quebec AFTER the lockout" rumors, then Portland/Seattle if the Coyotes have to move, then Vegas (??!!?!??!).

I made a post on a different sports message board that had a hockey section about impending NHL expansion, starting with two western teams. Those baseball fans didn't want NHL expansion. Someone bumped my thread with "OMG, he was totally right...." about SEVEN YEARS LATER.

It was like nine years from when people on this site thought "they're serious about going to 32 teams" to the time the Kraken dropped the puck.

Arizona is already in the central so they don’t need to do anything if they go to Utah

Right, but I'm not one of those people who assumes that every human Gary Bettman talks to for the purposes of relocating the Coyotes.

 

[GKJ]

I feel like, every time expansion is a topic, I tend to talk "big picture" with no set timeline, talking about "in the next decade or so" and then real life takes even longer than that.

Remember when we heard about the "Markham/Quebec AFTER the lockout" rumors, then Portland/Seattle if the Coyotes have to move, then Vegas (??!!?!??!).

I made a post on a different sports message board that had a hockey section about impending NHL expansion, starting with two western teams. Those baseball fans didn't want NHL expansion. Someone bumped my thread with "OMG, he was totally right...." about SEVEN YEARS LATER.

It was like nine years from when people on this site thought "they're serious about going to 32 teams" to the time the Kraken dropped the puck.



Right, but I'm not one of those people who assumes that every human Gary Bettman talks to for the purposes of relocating the Coyotes.

But if he did, things would have to move pretty quick. When the Thrashers moved, that was done in the dark. We know there’s people out there, but this was reported on with purpose.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

There's hardly been any bids to host the Winter Olympics. Eight cities bid on 2010 when Vancouver won. FOUR cities bid on 2022 and 2026 COMBINED.

I was trying to make a joke about all the rumored bribes that were paid to get the 2002 games to SLC.

I hope I don't have to explain all of this stuff every time.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Salt Lake City has a metro population of about 1.1 million. How would this even work with an NBA and MLS franchise in the area?

It wouldn't work. Bettman meets with many people, doesn't mean they are getting an NHL franchise

 

[TheLegend]

It wouldn't work. Bettman meets with many people, doesn't mean they are getting an NHL franchise

Bettman’s plane is probably tracked more often than Air Force One.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

I fully support bringing NHL to Utah. I love growing the game. But I think they need to build a brand spanking new rink in Salt Lake City.

Arizona and Atlanta on the other hand...

 

[KevFu]

But if he did, things would have to move pretty quick. When the Thrashers moved, that was done in the dark. We know there’s people out there, but this was reported on with purpose.

Yes and no, if the arena vote fails, the Coyotes CAN stay in Mullet for another 2 or 3 seasons. Obviously the faster they get out of there and into an NHL building the better.

But the two main things are:
#1 - When it comes to the Coyotes, people report on/comment on WHAT THEY WANT to happen more than what's actually happening. And in this case, the NHL commissioner meeting with the NBA Utah Jazz owner... easily could be these two media members doing that: "It must be about the Coyotes! Because we don't like the Coyotes existence!"

#2 - If the Tempe arena plan fails, is owning a team somewhere else, or being a TENANT in someone else's arena something that Meruelo is interested in?

The Thrashers moved quickly because it was obvious that no owner wanted to be a TENANT. Meruelo -- like the Islanders -- were totally willing to suffer through a bad arena situation temporarily if solving the arena/lease problem with a 30+ year ideal solution was possible.

Given how LAST round of expansion amid Coyotes uncertainty went -- rumors of Markham/Quebec, then Portland/Seattle, then Vegas out of left field before the NHL expanded to Vegas and Seattle; and now we have Atlanta/Houston rumors... it seems like the NHL does a "barnstorming for interest" lap every decade to NBA/untapped markets to gauge interest and options. Which is smart.

This reeks to me of the kind of thing that happens in college conference realignment. You see reports all the time about how the Big East and Gonzaga had a conversation. Yeah, every good AD is making calls once or twice a year to see (a) what options could be available to them (b) what they need to do to get better consideration and (c) scheduling opportunities.

It's just SMART for the NHL to know where every NBA owner stands in regards to:
- buying an NHL team via expansion
- buying an NHL team via relocation
- sharing their arena with an NHL team via cooperation/minority ownership swapping

And vice versa.

 

[KevFu]

This really can't be overstated. SLC has a very weird shape.

Yeah, but that's just the interstate corridor (and you know, mountains). SLC has grown along the interstate that goes south to Provo.

So my point was that if SLC is building a new arena for the Games they would need to know whether it just fits the needs of the Jazz or an NHL team as well.

That's most likely the best reason for Bettman and the Jazz ownership to meet.

Building an arena for the Olympic Games, it's GOING to be able to fit an NHL team because it's got to fit OLYMPIC ICE FIRST. What happens NEXT is the next question.

I was trying to make a joke about all the rumored bribes that were paid to get the 2002 games to SLC.

I hope I don't have to explain all of this stuff every time.

I got the joke, and liked it because the IOC being notoriously corrupt. But I didn't know who was aware of the "someone take the games please" trend going on.

 

[MNNumbers]

In all reality, Bettman could be talking to the Jazz owner about a possible outdoor game somewhere.

He could be having a conversation about expansion, with no time line.

He could be talking about arenas, including the possibility of the Olympics.

And, he could be talking in general, vague terms about the Coyotes.

Any of these is possible.

Therefore, any of these should be available for discussion here. After all, it's a business forum and this is news.

 

[TheLegend]

Yes and no, if the arena vote fails, the Coyotes CAN stay in Mullet for another 2 or 3 seasons. Obviously the faster they get out of there and into an NHL building the better.

But the two main things are:
#1 - When it comes to the Coyotes, people report on/comment on WHAT THEY WANT to happen more than what's actually happening. And in this case, the NHL commissioner meeting with the NBA Utah Jazz owner... easily could be these two media members doing that: "It must be about the Coyotes! Because we don't like the Coyotes existence!"

#2 - If the Tempe arena plan fails, is owning a team somewhere else, or being a TENANT in someone else's arena something that Meruelo is interested in?

The Thrashers moved quickly because it was obvious that no owner wanted to be a TENANT. Meruelo -- like the Islanders -- were totally willing to suffer through a bad arena situation temporarily if solving the arena/lease problem with a 30+ year ideal solution was possible.

Given how LAST round of expansion amid Coyotes uncertainty went -- rumors of Markham/Quebec, then Portland/Seattle, then Vegas out of left field before the NHL expanded to Vegas and Seattle; and now we have Atlanta/Houston rumors... it seems like the NHL does a "barnstorming for interest" lap every decade to NBA/untapped markets to gauge interest and options. Which is smart.

This reeks to me of the kind of thing that happens in college conference realignment. You see reports all the time about how the Big East and Gonzaga had a conversation. Yeah, every good AD is making calls once or twice a year to see (a) what options could be available to them (b) what they need to do to get better consideration and (c) scheduling opportunities.

It's just SMART for the NHL to know where every NBA owner stands in regards to:
- buying an NHL team via expansion
- buying an NHL team via relocation
- sharing their arena with an NHL team via cooperation/minority ownership swapping

And vice versa.

Something to ponder…

Meruelo has never…. ever sold an asset he’s acquired.

Tempe was not to only site he was looking at for a new arena, but he chose Tempe because of the potential ROI. The other site could cut build time by up to 9 months (no landfill to clean up) and as I understand it… the site is still available and he can pivot to it in short fashion.

We won’t know if any of this matters until May 16th.