Olympics: Bettman hints NHL won't play in 2018 and 2022

[xxxx]

Are you sure? I remember watching one of hockey Word Cups and it was quite boring experience. A very little emotions on the rink. There was nothing even remotely comparable with Olympics.

just an example

 

[Canuckistani]

European fans can downplay the world cup all they want. It's simply out of bitterness regarding organization.

We all know that the second their team wins the world cup it'll be considered one of the greatest achievements in their national team's history.

 

[xxxx]

I do. They have equal importance. In best case it could be mildly entertaining.

Haha, they do, really? The point of a tournament is to win a cup. Players take it seriously. They wanna win it. What is the point of winning a friendly game?

So, you know several men that care about CC and thinks that could make generalization about Europeans because of that, but people who live in those European countries couldn't do such generalizations? It's quite a fine logic.

Haha. It's been fun, really.

So, you know several men that care about CC

No, I said I have a friend, that....... read it.

and thinks that could make generalization about Europeans because of that

I didn't make any generalization, unlike you, when you stated 'when Europeans clearly see it as a cheap surrogate for real competition of Olympic games.'

 

[alce*]

Haha, they do, really? The point of a tournament is to win a cup. Players take it seriously. They wanna win it. What is the point of winning a friendly game?

No point. As there is no point of winning meaningless cup.

I didn't make any generalization, unlike you, when you stated 'when Europeans clearly see it as a cheap surrogate for real competition of Olympic games.'

Your post:

That's why I gave here the information about what the majority of hockey fans in the Czech republic and maybe in Slovakia too, thinks about the World cup, which clearly denies your and 'alce's' assuption that the vast majority of europeans don't see the World Cup as a prestigious tournament. Of course, I assume we have been talking about european hockey fans and not just some random people in Europe.

First you'd taken opinion of several Chechs fans and expand it on the majority of Chechs fans(it's first generalization), second you've expand your opinion on rest of the Europe again using opinion of those several Chechs fans(it's second). And yes I've did generalization which I've never denied and that was based on my own observation of what Russian fans think and what other European fans write.

Please, don't bother to reply to me, as I see no point of arguing with a man who denies his own words.

 

[Canuckistani]

No point. As there is no point of winning meaningless cup.

So why do the best European players turn up at the World Cup and play their hearts out?

Are they stupid or are they just not aware that they're needlessly risking injury for the sake of a totally meaningless exhibition series that none of them have to play in?

And yes I've did generalization which I've never denied and that was based on my own observation of what Russian fans think and what other European fans write.

Like I said, it would be fascinating to see what these "fans" would say if their team actually won the World Cup.

"Malkin to Ovechkin....he scores! Ovechkin beats Price top shelf and Russia has won the World Cup final in overtime!"


I wonder if Russian fans would respond with: "So what? It's just an exhibition. Let me know when the World Championships start so we can beat up some pitifully depleted squads and then truely be crowned #1."

Yeah sure

 

[alce*]

European fans can downplay the world cup all they want. It's simply out of bitterness regarding organization.

Canadians are very strange people. If you value this tournament then why do you even care about what Europeans think? For example I like WHC, I know that Canadians don't care about it at all, but I don't give a **** about their opinion. It's interesting for me and it's only thing that matters. But if you have to come up with such ridiculous explanation as "bitterness", instead of accepting reality, then go ahead.

 

[Canuckistani]

If you value this tournament then why do you even care about what Europeans think?

I don't particularly care, I just find the argument amusing.

"It's not an IIHF event" or "it's an exhibition." It's the same top players as the Olympics, for goodness sake, playing their hearts out for a championship.

Yet the Olympics mean everything and the World Cup means nothing? Okay then.

 

[JackSlater]

Olympics aren't as highly valued in football, because we already have established tournament that's held by organization that is as important as IOC. It's FIFA. Even if all the best have played in Olympics, it wouldn't be instantly as important as World Cup. If only over time. CC, that is held by local organization of two countries was, is, and always will be just exhibition tournament, despite any level of its participants. It have no chances to surpass Olympics or even be anywhere close to it.

Ahhh, so once again the organizing body is the most important thing, not the players. I see no value in an organizion like the IIHF (better than the corruption found in FIFA or the IOC though) being the organizing body. In North America most people care about the players in the hockey game, not the bureaucrats. You're entitled to your opinion that the World Cup could never surpass the Olympics. It is certain not valid in my estimation (particularly if the situation again becomes similar to pre-1998) but you are clearly not going to change your mind. I find it laughable to even consider an Olympic tournament without the world's best players as even close to the level of a best on best tournament, but we probably wouldn't agree there due to bureaucracy. Hopefully the Olympics will continue with NHL participation so that the theory isn't really tested.

Again. Nobody doubt that it could be very important for NA fans. It's European fans I've talked about.

Fair enough.

It was irrelevant, because times have changed and any opinion from that times doesn't held same importance now. And it's completely irrelevant as modern opinion, because it doesn't even have a historical interest. Sorry, but I've never said that IIHF opinion have any value for me, so your words about "large change of opinion" have absolutely no basis under them.

It isn't an opinion from "that times", it is an opinion from 2008. It obviously has a historical context, as it is the organization itself talking about its own history. Try to spin it any way you like, but the IIHF clearly values the Canada/World Cup quite a bit.

The large change in opinion is simply your own, as first you claimed that you don't care about opinions from the past, and when I pointed out that it was from current times you changed to not caring about opinions from now. It was actually funny.

It's quite a strange argument. I mean did I've said anything that contradict it? Because I've never said that CC is exhibition tournament for north-Americans, nope, I've said that it exhibition tournament for most Europeans, especially now, when it have no recent history behind it. As much as KHL is completely irrelevant for north-Americans, btw.

No, most of what you said was in generalities. As in:

"If only over time. CC, that is held by local organization of two countries was, is, and always will be just exhibition tournament, despite any level of its participants. It have no chances to surpass Olympics or even be anywhere close to it."

If you're going to make broad statements, I can't assume that you really mean just in Europe. It's as if I said, along the lines of what you are saying above, that the KHL is just an exhibition league - it has almost no history and no one in North America cares about it. If you are attempting to just speak for a European perspective, that's still a tall order but much more palatable.

European fans can downplay the world cup all they want. It's simply out of bitterness regarding organization.

We all know that the second their team wins the world cup it'll be considered one of the greatest achievements in their national team's history.

I do think there would be some shift in opinion, but many Russians still complain about the Canada/World Cup even after winning in 1981 (with the most impressive single game performance in international hockey history, in my opinion).

 

[alce*]

Ahhh, so once again the organizing body is the most important thing, not the players.

Please. It's not even funny anymore. FIFA isn't something that'd fallen from the sky it's management is elected on the congress of representatives of all national federations of its members. It could be corrupt, but in the end it goes in the direction of what football world want and all the countries are part of it. Do you see difference with NHL? FIFA World Cup is our tournament which was created because there were demand in it. And because of that it has its importance. And only because of it importance for every football fan, everyone in football world want to play there. It's true for continental competitions too. There is interest in such tournaments and because of that best of the best are playing there. Not the other way around. And we have an example of Confederation Cup which is completely unneeded tournament nobody gives a **** about. Despite it's very high level of players. You can't create artificial interest by making a tournament that nobody want.

CC is a tournament of NHL that was invented to get some profit for NHL. There is nothing wrong with it. It's pre-season exhibition commercial tournament. Why should it be anything else for us? Why do you want that it should be anything else for us? I mean even from business point of view all the profit goes almost exclusively from NA fans. What Europeans think should be completely irrelevant.

The large change in opinion is simply your own, as first you claimed that you don't care about opinions from the past, and when I pointed out that it was from current times you changed to not caring about opinions from now. It was actually funny.

I don't care. If that opinion were from 1976, it could have some historical interest for me, but reflection about past..., no, I don't care about it at all.

If you're going to make broad statements, I can't assume that you really mean just in Europe.

Why can't you? You've already replied on my first post here where I had written next words:

If Canadians/Americans are thinking that this tournament is best of the best then I could only be glad for them. But for vast majority of Europeans it was, is and always will be just another commercial tournament.

I assure you that my opinion didn't change in last few hours.

 

[TheTwelfth]

Yes of course I remember the Sale and Pelletier scandal (big news in Canada, as well as the United States) but I don't get your point. Supposedly neutral judges are also prone to corruption? I agree that any judge or referee can perform poorly.

Yes, I was a bit unclear with that. Point was, at the time (2002) it was unthinkable for a Swede that a Canadian ref would be in charge of a game involving Canada. It violates, in Swedish opinion, the spirit of fairness. The whole World Cup is seen as a tournament which garners so much advantages to a Canadian team, that the tournament is not fair at all.

I know my posts on refs may have steered off topic, but they are all connected to the same type of thinking as why the WC is not as popular as the Olympics, or even the WHC, over here.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Yes, I was a bit unclear with that. Point was, at the time (2002) it was unthinkable for a Swede that a Canadian ref would be in charge of a game involving Canada. It violates, in Swedish opinion, the spirit of fairness. The whole World Cup is seen as a tournament which garners so much advantages to a Canadian team, that the tournament is not fair at all.

I know my posts on refs may have steered off topic, but they are all connected to the same type of thinking as why the WC is not as popular as the Olympics, or even the WHC, over here.

The ironic thing is that the IIHF WHC is much more slanted in favour of the European teams than the CCup/WCup ever has or will be in favour of the NA teams. I know a lot of Stockholmers like to think they can speak for the whole country, but my feeling is your opinions here are much more representative of your own than they are for all Swedes.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

I have to admit that I am in the camp of not really caring how European fans feel about this tournament right now. As long as their players show up and play hard that's enough for me. I do love the "exhibition" argument though, as if throwing around such an arbitrary, empty word somehow devalues the tournament. Lastly for hockey I much prefer an invitational tournament because that way I know I get to see the teams that interest me. I would have loved to see Slovakia in the final rounds of the 98 and 02 Olympics, but they got screwed by the IIHF both times and we as fans were the biggest losers. I don't think I've once seen a European post complain about the Spengler Cup being an invitational, or using Swiss referees, but when someone else does it the full on Euro hate gets turned on big time, just funny that's all.

 

[Jussi]

I have to admit that I am in the camp of not really caring how European fans feel about this tournament right now. As long as their players show up and play hard that's enough for me. I do love the "exhibition" argument though, as if throwing around such an arbitrary, empty word somehow devalues the tournament. Lastly for hockey I much prefer an invitational tournament because that way I know I get to see the teams that interest me. I would have loved to see Slovakia in the final rounds of the 98 and 02 Olympics, but they got screwed by the IIHF both times and we as fans were the biggest losers. I don't think I've once seen a European post complain about the Spengler Cup being an invitational, or using Swiss referees, but when someone else does it the full on Euro hate gets turned on big time, just funny that's all.

They got screwed by the NHL for forcing such a tight schedule for the men's hockey tournament. IIHF were at the NHL's mercy then.

 

[Urbanskog]

I don't think I've once seen a European post complain about the Spengler Cup being an invitational, or using Swiss referees, but when someone else does it the full on Euro hate gets turned on big time, just funny that's all.

Why are you comparing the World Cup of Hockey and Spengler Cup? The former is to determine the best national team in the world. The latter is to determine nothing.

Is the thought of having a qualification system for a tournament that's supposed to determine the best national team in the world really that alien to you?

 

[JackSlater]

Please. It's not even funny anymore. FIFA isn't something that'd fallen from the sky it's management is elected on the congress of representatives of all national federations of its members. It could be corrupt, but in the end it goes in the direction of what football world want and all the countries are part of it. Do you see difference with NHL? FIFA World Cup is our tournament which was created because there were demand in it. And because of that it has its importance. And only because of it importance for every football fan, everyone in football world want to play there. It's true for continental competitions too. There is interest in such tournaments and because of that best of the best are playing there. Not the other way around. And we have an example of Confederation Cup which is completely unneeded tournament nobody gives a **** about. Despite it's very high level of players. You can't create artificial interest by making a tournament that nobody want.

So once again, the bureaucracy is the main point (even if they are demonstrably corrupt!). Organizing body first, participants second. The revision regarding the first World Cup (when many of the top teams in the world couldn't be bother to participate) is funny too. As far as artificial interest goes, I don't really see how interest impacts the tournament. I watch tournaments to see the games and results, not to check the viewership statistics from around the world. Different values I suppose.

CC is a tournament of NHL that was invented to get some profit for NHL. There is nothing wrong with it. It's pre-season exhibition commercial tournament. Why should it be anything else for us? Why do you want that it should be anything else for us? I mean even from business point of view all the profit goes almost exclusively from NA fans. What Europeans think should be completely irrelevant.

I agree that the opinions of fans in Europe (or elsewhere) are irrelevant. My issue is with large generalizations that the tournament is worthless (you personally not valuing it does not make it worthless), the players don't care (not that you specifically have said this) and complaints that the tournament comes at the expense of Olympic hockey, which are unfounded. You (or even all fans Europe) not caring about a tournament doesn't make it worthless.

I don't care. If that opinion were from 1976, it could have some historical interest for me, but reflection about past..., no, I don't care about it at all.

Too funny. First you claimed that you didn't care about opinions from back then, and now you don't care because it isn't an opinion from back then. I know it's an inconvenient quote for you, but you really can't say both statements without being called a massive flip flopper.

Why can't you? You've already replied on my first post here where I had written next words:

I assure you that my opinion didn't change in last few hours.

As I said that is more palatable, but the majority of your statements are generalities. Claiming that you and many European fans view a tournament as worthless is different from claiming it is simply worthless. You're entitled to your (almost incomprehensible to me) opinion, but it's just that.

Yes, I was a bit unclear with that. Point was, at the time (2002) it was unthinkable for a Swede that a Canadian ref would be in charge of a game involving Canada. It violates, in Swedish opinion, the spirit of fairness. The whole World Cup is seen as a tournament which garners so much advantages to a Canadian team, that the tournament is not fair at all.

I know my posts on refs may have steered off topic, but they are all connected to the same type of thinking as why the WC is not as popular as the Olympics, or even the WHC, over here.

Sure, I can see that the perception exists. Perception is not necessarily reality though. France and Russia absolutely cheated in the 2002 example. Did Canada cheat in the Olympic final in 2014? Not that I've seen. Hopefully if and when the World Cup resumes, it can become a more regular process in terms of scheduling and rules and make headway in terms of clearing up perceptions.

 

[Yakushev72]

So why do the best European players turn up at the World Cup and play their hearts out?

Are they stupid or are they just not aware that they're needlessly risking injury for the sake of a totally meaningless exhibition series that none of them have to play in?



Like I said, it would be fascinating to see what these "fans" would say if their team actually won the World Cup.

"Malkin to Ovechkin....he scores! Ovechkin beats Price top shelf and Russia has won the World Cup final in overtime!"


I wonder if Russian fans would respond with: "So what? It's just an exhibition. Let me know when the World Championships start so we can beat up some pitifully depleted squads and then truely be crowned #1."

Yeah sure

The fact that European players "turn up" does not in any way validate the argument that the World Cup is on the same level with the Olympics or even the World Championships. In 2014, the World Champion of hockey is officially Russia, and Canada is the Olympic champion. The guys who play in the NHL are "expected" to participate in the World Cup, and there would be recriminations for anyone who didn't support the collective NHL venture. As to the suggestion that all of players gave full effort, I doubt the truth of that opinion. The Russians had some of the best talent in hockey at their disposal, but they no doubt believed that the World Cup was just a continuation of the Canada Cup, which they believed was fixed to guarantee a Canadian win. Whether true or not, there are few if any Russians who didn't believe. In the end, its a North American exhibition designed to entertain a North American audience. If it is held in 2016, those basic facts won't change.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Please. It's not even funny anymore. FIFA isn't something that'd fallen from the sky it's management is elected on the congress of representatives of all national federations of its members. It could be corrupt, but in the end it goes in the direction of what football world want and all the countries are part of it. Do you see difference with NHL? FIFA World Cup is our tournament which was created because there were demand in it. And because of that it has its importance. And only because of it importance for every football fan, everyone in football world want to play there. It's true for continental competitions too. There is interest in such tournaments and because of that best of the best are playing there. Not the other way around. And we have an example of Confederation Cup which is completely unneeded tournament nobody gives a **** about. Despite it's very high level of players. You can't create artificial interest by making a tournament that nobody want.

CC is a tournament of NHL that was invented to get some profit for NHL. There is nothing wrong with it. It's pre-season exhibition commercial tournament. Why should it be anything else for us? Why do you want that it should be anything else for us? I mean even from business point of view all the profit goes almost exclusively from NA fans. What Europeans think should be completely irrelevant.




I don't care. If that opinion were from 1976, it could have some historical interest for me, but reflection about past..., no, I don't care about it at all.




Why can't you? You've already replied on my first post here where I had written next words:



I assure you that my opinion didn't change in last few hours.

I agree with you. I just can't get excited about the tournament at all for the reasons you've set out in your post and elsewhere.

It will be really depressing if the NHL forces the players out of the Olympics just so it can make money off the WC nonsense.

 

[JackSlater]

The fact that European players "turn up" does not in any way validate the argument that the World Cup is on the same level with the Olympics or even the World Championships. In 2014, the World Champion of hockey is officially Russia, and Canada is the Olympic champion.

Congratulations to Russia for winning the IIHF World Championship, where most of the world's best players don't even show up. At least it has "World Championship" in its name I suppose.

The guys who play in the NHL are "expected" to participate, and there would be recriminations for anyone who didn't support the collective NHL venture.

Proof?

And of course if they play, they will work hard to win, although some teams will work harder than others.

Proof?

 

[patnyrnyg]

And not many outside North America care about this unsanctioned, invitational 8-team Canada Cup.

I don't care what anyone else thinks, North Americans or not. Everyone will know whether it is a best-on-best. I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians boycott since everyone knows they could never win tourney that involves the best-on-best.

 

[patnyrnyg]

So, after crapping all over the WHC, you want to use the rankings largely decided by said WHC?



Only Canadian fans would ever value World cup on the level with Olympics.

The big problem is with a single league arranging a tournament, that there will not be many teams participating if they can't get other leagues to join in. At the moment, I have trouble seeing why any league wants to join the NHL in defying the IIHF. Without the other leagues, there will only be 2 or 3 teams (depending on if the Swedish federation wants to be loyal to IIHF or not).

Why not? Why wouldn't Swedish NHL'ers want to play? Why wouldn't the Finns, Czechs, etc?

 

[patnyrnyg]

In this thread I learnt: Placing top 2 in a best-on-best tournament beats winning a non-best-on-best-tournament! You really don't get what Jussi pointed out, do you?

We've already gone through this. I even posted what some Swedish players thought of the world cup in, I believe it was this thread. The opinion was always the same, World cup, fun tournament, the olympics, the real deal. Which I'm fairly sure mimics the opinion of the hockey interested Europeans. Doubt you'll find more than a handfull who would even begin to consider the world cup as even close to equal to the olympics.

Pre 1998 it was "Olympics-fun tournament", Canada Cup/World Cup- "THE REAL DEAL". No reason why it can't get back to that.

 

[Canuckistani]

The fact that European players "turn up" does not in any way validate the argument that the World Cup is on the same level with the Olympics or even the World Championships.

Depends who you ask. The players seem to regard the World Cup as being something worth playing for, whereas the World Championship (judging by its rosters) is much more of a take-it-or-leave-it type of event.

The guys who play in the NHL are "expected" to participate in the World Cup, and there would be recriminations for anyone who didn't support the collective NHL venture.

What sort of recriminations?

I don't recall Mario Lemieux, Ray Bourque, Jeremy Roenick, Ulf Samuelsson, Tomas Sandstrom or Dominik Hasek getting into trouble for taking a pass on 1996.

Nor did Sami Kapanen, Darien Hatcher, Nikolai Khabibulin, Valeri Bure, Sergei Federov or Alexei Zhamnov get into trouble in 2004.

Face it: the players care about any best-on-best tournament, regardless of what silly objections some fans might have to who's putting on the event.

 

[JackSlater]

Pre 1998 it was "Olympics-fun tournament", Canada Cup/World Cup- "THE REAL DEAL". No reason why it can't get back to that.

There isn't any reason to go back to non-NHL Olympics. Just have both tournaments.

What sort of recriminations?

I don't recall Mario Lemieux, Ray Bourque, Jeremy Roenick, Ulf Samuelsson, Tomas Sandstrom or Dominik Hasek getting into trouble for taking a pass on 1996.

Nor did Sami Kapanen, Darien Hatcher, Nikolai Khabibulin, Valeri Bure, Sergei Federov or Alexei Zhamnov get into trouble in 2004.

Face it: the players care about any best-on-best tournament, regardless of what silly objections some fans might have to who's putting on the event.

You ruined it. I wanted to see what claim would follow. Some players skipped Canada/World Cups, just like some have opted out of the Olympics (some of the players you listed were injured). Basically nothing happened to any of them.

 

[patnyrnyg]

There isn't any reason to go back to non-NHL Olympics. Just have both tournaments.



You ruined it. I wanted to see what claim would follow. Some players skipped Canada/World Cups, just like some have opted out of the Olympics (some of the players you listed were injured). Basically nothing happened to any of them.

That isn't going to happen. Going to be one or the other. If they stay in the Olympics, I don't see them bothering with a World Cup.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Depends who you ask. The players seem to regard the World Cup as being something worth playing for, whereas the World Championship (judging by its rosters) is much more of a take-it-or-leave-it type of event.



What sort of recriminations?

I don't recall Mario Lemieux, Ray Bourque, Jeremy Roenick, Ulf Samuelsson, Tomas Sandstrom or Dominik Hasek getting into trouble for taking a pass on 1996.

Nor did Sami Kapanen, Darien Hatcher, Nikolai Khabibulin, Valeri Bure, Sergei Federov or Alexei Zhamnov get into trouble in 2004.

Face it: the players care about any best-on-best tournament, regardless of what silly objections some fans might have to who's putting on the event.

Roenick opted out as he didnt have a contract so obviously didnt want to risk getting hurt. Not sure why the rest sat out, but good point.