Better defensive player? Crosby or McDavid

[daver]

Who is better in the defensive zone and who contributes more in the defensive zone?

 

[COHawk]

Not sure how this will be close:

Crosby Selke finishes: 4, 7, 9, 9, 10 12, 14, 15, 18, 19

McDavid Selke finishes: 16, 26, 27, 30

 

[GlitchMarner]

Honestly, the distinction isn't meaningful.

They're both great offensive superstars and splitting hairs over who is better defensively in his own zone is really reaching.

Both guys are great at controlling play in their own way and because of that, each generally "tilts the ice" and outscores the opposition, which is what you expect and want from franchise-level players.

Both can be decent to good in terms of pure defensive zone defense, but it's neither guy's forte. We're not comparing Fedorov to Patrick Kane here.

Between the two of them, they have one top five Selke voting finish (Crosby finished fourth in 2019).

Selke voting and reputation suggest Crosby is a notch better, but neither is a Kopitar or Barkov... it doesn't really matter.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Honestly, the distinction isn't meaningful.

They're both great offensive superstars and splitting hairs over who is better defensively in his own zone is really reaching.

Both guys are great at controlling play in their own way and because of that, each generally "tilts the ice" and outscores the opposition, which is what you expect and want from franchise-level players.

Both can be decent to good in terms of pure defensive zone defense, but it's neither guy's forte. We're not comparing Fedorov to Patrick Kane here.

Between the two of them, they have one top five Selke voting finish (Crosby finished fourth in 2019).

Selke voting and reputation suggest Crosby is a notch better, but neither is a Kopitar or Barkov... it doesn't really matter.

It's not just pure defensive ability. Crosby is able to grind players down along the boards and win battles in all zones, whereas McDavid is more free flowing and dancing around players.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses but imo Crosby is more well rounded/era proof, whereas McDavid is more naturally skilled/talented.

 

[geebster]

It would be massive revisionist history to put McDavid ahead of Crosby. Also people discount the value of a forecheck and playing deep in the corners as being part of a good defensive forward. Crosby simply is better at that. (EDIT: person above me made this exact point but posted while I was typing).

Before Oilers fans get mad, McDavid is the more skilled player and is better at a LOT of things but this isnt one of em.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Not sure how this will be close:

Crosby Selke finishes: 4, 7, 9, 9, 10 12, 14, 15, 18, 19

McDavid Selke finishes: 16, 26, 27, 30

Finishes like 12th and 14th don't mean that much. I think most of Crosby's higher finishes are from his late 20s to early 30s (the point of his career McDavid is reaching now).

Neither guy has won the award or come particularly close to doing so. I think to be considered a legit two-way guy among superstar or franchise level players, you need to actually have won the award or at least finished top five in voting a handful of times.

 

[Killer Orca]

I think this is easily Crosby, but he's overrated himself defensively, and should never have gotten to 4th on Selke voting himself.

 

[Mrb1p]

Is this a joke thread?

 

[93gilmour93]

This isn't even a discussion really

 

[COHawk]

Finishes like 12th and 14th don't mean that much. I think most of Crosby's higher finishes are from his late 20s to early 30s (the point of his career McDavid is reaching now).

Neither guy has won the award or come particularly close to doing so. I think to be considered a legit two-way guy among superstar or franchise level players, you need to actually have won the award or at least finished top five in voting a handful of times.

While I agree, Crosby did have 4 top 20 finishes (and 1 top 10) by his age 28 season. But you are correct his 3 other top 10 finishes came from ages 30-36.

But the poll is who is the better defensive player, not who was better during the first 10 years of their career.

 

[PainForShane]

Is this a joke thread?

Most likely. There's another thread going on where some random McDavid-stan has started repeatedly and unironically arguing (among other things) that McDavid is a better 2-way forward than Barkov because McDavid's had a better xGF% and GF% in the playoffs the last 3 years.

So yeah, probably a joke thread (or at least a joke poll), but maybe appropriate, at least depending who you ask and maybe also on your point of view and the role of threads and / or polls in general

 

[tabness]

Crosby is more adaptable and versatile. McDavid can probably do more in anticipation scenarios though, and you aren't allowed to do much more than that nowadays anyway lol

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Finishes like 12th and 14th don't mean that much. I think most of Crosby's higher finishes are from his late 20s to early 30s (the point of his career McDavid is reaching now).

Neither guy has won the award or come particularly close to doing so. I think to be considered a legit two-way guy among superstar or franchise level players, you need to actually have won the award or at least finished top five in voting a handful of times.

Crosby did come quite close to winning in 2019.

And this is just a weird comment, implying that unless a guy is a Selke winner there's no significant difference between players defensively.

 

[Primary Assist]

Sid was just voted the most complete player by his union brothers for the sixth year in a row, so I'd say this is easily The Kid. And by The Kid I mean the elder of the two.

McDavid has many, many strengths and the ability to break the puck out of the defensive zone basically on his own is huge. But Sid just has that preternatural anticipation and instinct to be exactly where the puck is going to be and developed into a great two way center during his mid 20s

 

[Garbageyuk]

Crosby is overrated as hell defensively. In the latter half of his career, he’s been about average to very slightly above average defensively. Neither are defensive forwards, or particularly good defensively, and the difference between them in this regard is insignificant. But for some reason, Crosby has this reputation of being strong defensively. He isn’t.

This is like asking which car is more powerful, a Honda Civic or a Toyota Corolla? The answer is who tf cares.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Crosby is overrated as hell defensively. In the latter half of his career, he’s been about average to very slightly above average defensively. Neither are defensive forwards, or particularly good defensively, and the difference between them in this regard is insignificant. But for some reason, Crosby has this reputation of being strong defensively. He isn’t.

This is like asking which car is more powerful, a Honda Civic or a Toyota Corolla? The answer is who tf cares.

Is there some sort of McDavid cult where his fans are unable to admit he's worse in any aspect?

It's a yes or no, and I'm sure if you thought McDavid was better you would care.

 

[geebster]

Finishes like 12th and 14th don't mean that much. I think most of Crosby's higher finishes are from his late 20s to early 30s (the point of his career McDavid is reaching now).

Neither guy has won the award or come particularly close to doing so. I think to be considered a legit two-way guy among superstar or franchise level players, you need to actually have won the award or at least finished top five in voting a handful of times.

That's a really arbitrary bar. If one had zero top 15 finishes and the other has 8 (5 in the top 10) thars a meaningful difference. The thread isnt who is an actual defensive forward or shutdown guy, but simply who is better. By saying that you need more than one top 5 or winning the award you completely ignore the argument.

Are you saying that they are identical, since neither meet that arbitrary bar? Are you saying that finishing 4th is the same as getting 0 votes?

Crosby is better defensively. He isnt Barkov or Datsyuk and hes probably overrated at it, but hes still better.

 

[Miro4Norris]

Definitely the Guy that was watching pretty much every Panthers goal on the Ice in the finals. LOL.

I will help you with Sid vs Connor comparison:

McDavid: Speed

Crosby: Every other aspect of the game

 

[crowfish]

Definitely the Guy that was watching pretty much every Panthers goal on the Ice in the finals. LOL.

I will help you with Sid vs Connor comparison:

McDavid: Speed

Crosby: Every other aspect of the game

Net goals while on ice (playoff career)

Crosby +128 goals, 180 games played = .711 per game

McDavid +108 goals, 96 games played = 1.125 per game

Conclusion: McDavids' ice time is worth a surplus of +1.12 goals per game for his team, while Crosby's is worth +0.71.

Interesting how Crosby manages to be better at "every other aspect of the game", and yet his icetime yields almost half a goal less per game than McDavids. The best part is, this includes defence, it includes faceoffs won, it includes everything they do on the ice.

 

[Fatass]

Defense wins championships. Crosby 3 and McDavid 0.

 

[Miro4Norris]

Net goals while on ice (playoff career)

Crosby +128 goals, 180 games played = .711 per game

McDavid +108 goals, 96 games played = 1.125 per game

Conclusion: McDavids' ice time is worth a surplus of +1.12 goals per game for his team, while Crosby's is worth +0.71.

Interesting how Crosby manages to be better at "every other aspect of the game", and yet his icetime yields almost half a goal less per game than McDavids. The best part is, this includes defence, it includes faceoffs won, it includes everything they do on the ice.

There is a lot of factors that this doesn’t consider. I can point out a couple of those

First of all, McDavid is now on his absolute prime. Lets see how that changes on the next 10 years when he is regressing.

Second, that doesn’t factor the ozone vs dzone starts. McDavid gets ridiculous amount of ozone starts, more than any center on cup winning teams, while Penguins often used Malkin line / HBK etc. On those and played Crosby more defensively.

Then also, McDavid shares a LOT of his Ice time with a generational talent Draisaitl while sid never even had a player in a level of Hyman/RNH on his line besides one year with Hossa. Well, Guentzel was there in his Late years. But he wasn’t nowhere near Drai either.

And Edmonton often tries to find easy matchups for McDavid against lower lines when they can decide, while it always benefitted Penguins the most when Crosby was playing against opponents best line. At least since Staal left

Oh, and little thing but now that you said it, how does this factor faceoffs when Drai is taking the faceoffs when he is on the ice with McDavid?

This kind of things matter, a lot when comparing plus minus. And yeah the Cups are still 3-0

 

[lawrence]

Crosby: Every other aspect of the game

Mcdavid is a better offensive player.

 

[wetcoast]

Mcdavid is a better offensive player.

Because that's exactly what the poll question is asking ...wrong.

Got this in before the lock, Spiny Norman is lurking somewhere.

The answer here is pretty clearly Crosby, those saying otherwise are out to lunch as NHL players have voted Crosby best overall player 6 times in a row.

 

[Three On Zero]

this is handedly Crosby

 

[Duffy13]

both players alter how a team plays when in their zone, Crosby battles against boards and behind the net more than McDavid, but McDavids speed, and reach makes him a bigger threat to intercept plays . If McDavid wasn't playing a million minutes a game, having him PK up high would be similar to when Lemieux would anticipate a play on the PK and off he goes. Neither should be up for Selkes as they sacrifice much more for offence than pure defense, however they old saying a good defense is a good offence pertains more so to players like them.